Scientific and Techno progress not what it seems

[Lawdog]

No, you must now explain the principles of your morality. Why not just do whatever you want if you do not believe in God?

 

[Oli]

I "must"?
Okay define morality. No seriously since it's not something I actually give much thought to (which not saying I'm saying I'm not moral).
Mostly I live by "do as you would be done by". Or even "to thine own self be true". At some point in my life I may called to account for my actions (legal, peer group, family, whatever). What reason would I have for acting "immorally" is probably more to the point - bearing in mind that the potential drawbacks outweigh the likely benefits. Hmmm. Enlightened self-interest?
I googled for a definition of morality and found, among others, these two:
A complicated gesture learned from books. [Robert Bolt]
www.wordskit.com/words/word-m.shtml
A system of determining right and wrong that is established by some authority, such as a church, an organization, a society, or a government.
www.ethicsscoreboard.com/rb_definitions.html
One of those is quite witty, the other is self-referential. It still doesn't define morality in terms of anything other than right and wrong... what is "right" and what is "wrong"?
Edit: spelling

 

[Lawdog]

If you are called to account for your actions, why not just lie and justify yourself in every case, saying that your behavior was perfect. Afterall, with no God to see through the falsehood, why not just use the advantage and make others think highly of you?

 

[Oli]

Because being true to myself counts for more than the opinion of most people I know. So why would I bother lying to them? Why would I do something I would need to lie about?
(And lies get found out in the end, but that's a by-the-by).

 

[Lawdog]

Explain being "true to myself"

 

[Oli]

You ever heard of Shakespeare? I am me, I have an image myself - things I will or will not do. And I will live up to that image as best as possible, because anything else would be a betrayal of myself.
Okay, someone who finds delight in murder could claim the same, and be true about it. But my self-image does not include that. So I not only avoid lying I avoid situations that would necessitate having to make the choice on lying or not.

 

[wsionynw]

No, you must now explain the principles of your morality. Why not just do whatever you want if you do not believe in God?

Lawdog, we've been down this road before. My moral and ethical standpoint is thus, treat others (humans and animals) as you would wish to be treated yourself. This means in basic terms that it is wrong to inflict pain and suffering on other sentient beings becuase I know that I would not wish to be subjected to pain and suffering. I wouldn't nuke the planet because of the huge loss of life and damage to the environment. At no point would I consider what God might think of my actions.
Are you saying that you don't kill people because God told you not to? If there was no mention of killing in the ten commandments would you kill people? Is it the fear of God that keeps you from rape, murder, stealing, etc?
The problem is that some religious believers justify their cruel actions by claiming that it is the will of God.
Life exists for it's own sake, and should be respected, human or otherwise.

 

[Cris]

Lawdog,

Therefore pleasure is your highest principle?

Exactly the same for Christians - but they expect to have an eternity of perfect pleasure in an imaginary heaven.

Why are you any different to atheists? Do you hope for a painful life then?

Everything you do is for your own personal pleasure.

 

[Cris]

Lawdog,

I really cant see how you can think that humans will change, or that somehow we are evolving and have evolved.

We evolved from earlier hominids, and the next stages in our evolution will likely be at our own pace and design, but it seems quite certain that we will change. Change seems to be the only real unchanging constant in the universe.

my study of history indicates that Man has always been in a similar condition up until the modern era

Sure.

when false philosophies distorted his understanding of his place in the universe.

His place is the same as anything else – nothing special, apart from his evolved intelligence. .

Man wishes to be his own god.

Speak for yourself. Your analogy has no meaning for me.

I do not think that tech will over power Man,

They will merge, that was my point.

but Man can ruin his civilization with it.

Or make it work for him. Remember you are a Christian and hence have been indoctrinated to always see only the worst in people.

What is your final vision? Utopia?

My vision is identical to yours – survival.

Some religionists do hope for death.

Every major religion is about death – that’s the only reason religions exist – the false hope they can cheat death through an imaginary supernatural fiction.

Worshippers of the true God know that He is the God of Life.

And every theistic religion also claims their own true god, and others claim the only true path to life, etc, etc. It’s all FANTASY – it isn’t real. Wake up.

The problem is this: its totally absurd not to believe in God.

Don’t be daft. It is totally absurd to believe something that only exists in your imagination is true. That is the depth of stupidity, not just absurd.

Even those of us who are believers can never be sure if we will end up in Hell.

Don’t worry, that is just another fantasy place that isn’t real. When you die you will simply cease to exist.

We are hoping to please God.

What the heck for? Why would an omnipotent being need you to please him? Now that is an absurd idea.

The fact of God's existance should be taken for granted,

No it cannot. You cannot show me any single scrap of evidence that shows he is real, that he exists, did exist, or will ever exist.

it should be the starting point of discussion, what to do about it, etc.

Why? Let’s establish first if there is anything there that can be talked about.

People that dont believe in God are like they who say absurd things like: "I dont exist"

No – you don’t understand atheism yet do you? We simply don’t find your claims credible or believable.

You like to lump together all "religionists." Its sort of like lumping together all car salesmen, both used, new, and stolen vehical salesmen.

All religions are indistinguishable from each other, they are all identical – they all assert fantasy as truth. You are no different to the Muslim or the Buddhist, or the Hindu, etc.

 

[Ophiolite]

If you are called to account for your actions, why not just lie and justify yourself in every case, saying that your behavior was perfect. Afterall, with no God to see through the falsehood, why not just use the advantage and make others think highly of you?

It doesn't work for you. Why would it work for me?