science vs religion...

[audible]

then I would be brain dead, Yorda, wait a minute I already am. lol

 

[enton]

sorry I cannot agree with that, science and religion are separates, the two together would be an oxymoron.

Why? Does that silence deafen you? Or do you feel the freezing fire? Science is only separated to relligion by abnormal morons.

 

[audible]

Why?

because scientists are those in the know, and religionist are those who believe they know, a huge difference.

Does that silence deafen you?

I'm all ears, but cant hear it.

Or do you feel the freezing fire?

no dont like the cold or the hot, I'm an inbetween kind of guy.

Science is only separated to relligion by abnormal morons.

and thats rich coming from a theist, science was only tolerated by religion, as they believed it could prove there faith, when they found it could'nt it was, kept in the background, and only allowed to show it's face if could produce something positive to religion, which was impossible. the dark ages ring any bells etc....

 

[ellion]

geeser,

firstly. are you arguing simply that my example was bad or do you take issue with me saying that the imagination can be used to confirm a truth?

secondly, when you say;

this is "you/your/yours" as in the general sense of the word.

do you realize that it is not me you are speaking about? you are expressing your perception of your expereince of your mind utilizing both your memory and your imagination. your interpretation of my expereince was simply your interpretation it had nothing to do with me/my/mine.

yes you can add things to a memory, Ie change the colour of

is colour imagined?

something pick up a tenner that was'nt there,

picking up a ten pound note is an expereince that did not take place at all the whole picking up the tenner expereince was created, this expereince can also be embellished with emotional reaction and mental considerations all of which are self created n.b. imagined.

but it still boils down to your memory, you cant travel through your memories in real time, now can you.

yes, i can. can't you? memories can be recalled with any quality. can't they? pick up stuff that is not there change the colour of your embaressment, etcetera.

the above trip you went on, was imagination including your experianced memory but your memory is the bulk of the information,

yes, indeed, i was not saying that i created a mental landscape that had no basis in reality. i was saying that i could use my imagination to confirm what is true.

if you did'nt have experianced memory, your imagination, would be extremely poor.

well thats not true either really, but i do know what you are trying to say. if the truth that we are confirming has not been expereinced at some level of consciousness then the imagination can not aid memory in accessing that truth. this is what you are trying to say, isnt it?

 

[geeser]

geeser,
firstly. are you arguing simply that my example was bad or do you take issue with me saying that the imagination can be used to confirm a truth?

no just that you have it back to front, your imagination cant confirm truth, but your memory can. example: fred wants to know what station to get off, you can recall all the stations, and the one with elephants on the platform is the station, he should get off , it 's your memory that recalls the station the fact that your imagination has added elephant is irrelevant, you memory confirms the stop to get off.

do you realize that it is not me you are speaking about? you are expressing your perception of your expereince of your mind utilizing both your memory and your imagination. your interpretation of my expereince was simply your interpretation it had nothing to do with me/my/mine.

of course, I can not possible get in side your head, whats your point.

is colour imagined?

no color is experienced, hence why you can recall the colours, for instance the murderers eyes were blue, said mr smith to the officer, later they had arrested the murderer, the murderers eyes are brown, I could have sworn they were blue, said mr smith.

picking up a ten pound note is an expereince that did not take place at all the whole picking up the tenner expereince was created, this expereince can also be embellished with emotional reaction and mental considerations all of which are self created n.b. imagined.

you must have been the recipient of a vastly exaggerated true story, [baron munchuzen) we all do it, to enrich it to make more palatable to the listener, we all add things, to our memorys.

but i do know what you are trying to say. if the truth that we are confirming has not been expereinced at some level of consciousness then the imagination can not aid memory in accessing that truth. this is what you are trying to say, isnt it?

nearly, if the truth that we are trying to confirm has not been experienced at some level of consciousness, then the memory can not aid that truth, thus making the imagine poorer, for lack of experienced memory.
every time we open our eyes, ears, smell, taste, touch we gain an experienced memory, and our imagination can play-with, manipulate, concocted, create, images, fantasy, and possibly sounds that no one has ever seen, heard or been before.
but it's only our experienced memory that can confirm a truth.
memory has been touched by reality, imagination has not.

 

[ellion]

geeser,
in which sense do you use the word imagintaion? is it in the sense of creating fantasy only, or in (what i feel) is its true sense of viewing images in the mind?


suppose i have a journey which involves me travelling to a number of different destinations, i dont want to waste time travelling, and need to figure the quickest route, i dint have a map bur i know where all the addresses are. so i create my own map in my imagination containing all the addresses laid out like an actual map, a cognitive map. this imaginary map is used to organise and schedule my journey. the information i am using is from memory but my imagination is laying it out in a fashion that i have never expereinced before. these cognitive maps are used constantly, i would even be so bold as to say you were forming one amoment ago to accomadate my map.




Imagination
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

For the soul band Imagination see Imagination (band).
For the album Imagination by Brian Wilson see Imagination (album).

Imagination is, in general, the power or process of producing mental images and ideas. The term is technically used in psychology for the process of reviving in the mind percepts of objects formerly given in sense perception. Since this use of the term conflicts with that of ordinary language, some psychologists have preferred to describe this process as "imaging" or "imagery" or to speak of it as "reproductive" as opposed to "productive" or "constructive" imagination. Imagined images are seen with the "mind's eye". One hypothesis for the evolution of human imagination is that it allowed conscious beings to solve problems (and hence increase an individual's fitness) by use of mental simulation.

The common use of the term is for the process of forming in the mind new images which have not been previously experienced, or at least only partially or in different combinations. Fairy tales and fiction generally are the result of this process of combination. Imagination in this sense, not being limited to the acquisition of exact knowledge by the requirements of practical necessity, is up to a certain point free from objective restraints. The ability to imagine one's self in another person's place is very important to social relations and understanding. (Some psychiatrists suspect this is beyond the grasp of a sociopath. All they know is the gratification of personal pleasure). In various spheres, however, even imagination is in practice limited: thus a man whose imaginations do violence to the elementary laws of thought, or to the necessary principles of practical possibility, or to the reasonable probabilities of a given case is regarded as insane.

The same limitations beset imagination in the field of scientific hypothesis. Progress in scientific research is due largely to provisional explanations which are constructed by imagination, but such hypotheses must be framed in relation to previously ascertained facts and in accordance with the principles of the particular science.

In spite, however, of these broad practical considerations, imagination differs fundamentally from belief in that the latter involves "objective" control of subjective activity. The play of imagination, apart from the obvious limitations (e.g. of avoiding explicit self-contradiction), is conditioned only by the general trend of the mind at a given moment. Belief, on the other hand, is immediately related to practical activity: it is perfectly possible to imagine myself a millionaire, but unless I believe it I do not, therefore, act as such. Belief always endeavours to conform to objective conditions; though it is from one point of view subjective it is also objectively conditioned, whereas imagination as such is specifically free. The dividing line between imagination and belief varies widely in different stages of mental development. Thus someone from a technologically primitive culture who is ill frames an ideal reconstruction of the causes of his illness, and attributes it to the hostile magic of an enemy. In ignorance of pathology he is satisfied with this explanation, and actually believes in it, whereas such a hypothesis in the mind of someone who understood germ theory it would be treated as a pure effort of imagination, or even as a hallucination. It follows that the distinction between imagination and belief depends in practice on knowledge, social environment, training and the like.

Although, however, the absence of objective restraint, i.e. a certain unreality, is characteristic of imagination, none the less it has great practical importance as a purely ideational activity. Its very freedom from objective limitation makes it a source of pleasure and pain. A person of vivid imagination suffers acutely from the imagination of perils besetting a friend. In fact in some cases the ideal construction is so "real" that specific physical manifestations occur, as though imagination had passed into belief or the events imagined were actually in progress. See, for example, psychosomatic illness and Folie a deux.