Science of Water Memory?

[KUMAR5]

You think.


At best, that would just add more anecdotal evidence. What you need is to do a well-controlled experiment, as I suggested.


I just did that! I suggested a controlled experiment you could do. Are you interested? I thought you said you were studying this rigorously.

Thanks.Let me see, how it can be done.

Anecdotal evidence, you mean?

Yes it is normally claimed in science but not in homeopathy.

I am aware of people drinking homeopathic preparations of poisons and suffering no ill effects. According to homeopathy, those poisons should become more potent as they become more diluted, so after many dilutions they should certainly be fatal. Why is it that they are not?

"Hormesis is a characteristic of many biological processes, namely a biphasic response to exposure to increasing amounts of a substance or condition.[1] Within the hormetic zone, there is generally a favorable biological response to low exposures to toxins and other stressors..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horme...gy, hormesis is a,also been termed "eustress"."

Above quote may better indicate.

Great! We are in agreement. You just need to do the relevant studies to show that homeopathy is effective after all, thus refuting all the previous controlled studies that showed it was no better than placebo. Then I'll be the first in line to congratulate you on your addition to scientific knowledge. You'll probably win prizes and be famous! It sounds great. When will you start the controlled tests?

Yes, studies need to be revisied or redone in contect of adsorption theory, in context of different nature of agents and in context of right type dilutions are used.

I have now asked you several times what "potency" means in this context. Why don't you answer me?

What does it mean to have a "higher potency for stimulation"? How is that tested? What controlled tests confirm it?

they claim higher the dilution, higher its potency to stimulate needed physiological activities. Means higher the dose.

What is an "energy medicine"?

Like EM spectrum, Potential and Kinetic energy dose in low quantity.

What does energy storage have to do with medicine? I don't understand.

As above. I can't say, whether Potential Energy is some kind of energy storage.

Anyway, we are not concerned with energy medicines if we endorse presence of molecules as above.

 

[James R]

KUMAR5:

Yes it is normally claimed in science but not in homeopathy.

Anecdotal evidence is fine for homeopathy, but weak evidence in science? That suggests to me that homeopaths have a very low threshold for believing their medicines are effective. What do you think?

"Hormesis is a characteristic of many biological processes, namely a biphasic response to exposure to increasing amounts of a substance or condition.[1] Within the hormetic zone, there is generally a favorable biological response to low exposures to toxins and other stressors..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hormesis#:~:text=In toxicology, hormesis is a,also been termed "eustress"."

Above quote may better indicate.

Thanks. That makes sense.

This hormetic zone wouldn't extend to ultra-low amounts of substance, though, would it - e.g. those found in extreme homeopathic dilutions? In other words, we'd expect that the biological response to very low quantities of any substance would be negligible, and almost certainly of no immediate health benefit. Do you agree?

Yes, studies need to be revisied or redone in contect of adsorption theory, in context of different nature of agents and in context of right type dilutions are used.

I don't think the adsorption theory is very important, if your aim is to put homeopathy on a scientific footing as useful medicine. All you really need to do is to test the medical efficacy of substances in homeopathic quantities, under controlled conditions. Why has the homeopathic industry not already done any such rigorous scientific tests?

they claim higher the dilution, higher its potency to stimulate needed physiological activities. Means higher the dose.

Okay. So has any testing been done to confirm that very high homeopathic dilutions of various substances (e.g. the salts you mentioned) produce measurable physiological responses, distinguishable from control solutions of pure water? If not, why not?

Like EM spectrum, Potential and Kinetic energy dose in low quantity.

I don't know what you're referring to. After you talking about shining lights on people in low quantities, or something like that? Never mind, we can concentrate on our discussion of dilutions if you like.

 

[KUMAR5]

Good to hear. So no supernatural beliefs, then.


Welcome to sciforums, fellow skeptic. You will find many friends here.


They must have got it wrong. I'm glad we sorted that out.

Then, others can wait and watch them to become natural.

Thanks.

 

[KUMAR5]

KUMAR5:


Anecdotal evidence is fine for homeopathy, but weak evidence in science? That suggests to me that homeopaths have a very low threshold for believing their medicines are effective. What do you think?

No they do not feel so within their limitations and observations. They are quite positive minded people. Mostly honest.

Thanks. That makes sense.

This hormetic zone wouldn't extend to ultra-low amounts of substance, though, would it - e.g. those found in extreme homeopathic dilutions? In other words, we'd expect that the biological response to very low quantities of any substance would be negligible, and almost certainly of no immediate health benefit. Do you agree?

We need to check quantity of desorbed molecules and their low dose effect. First, molecular presence is to be well justified in science theory. Efficacy will be another topic. In observation of homeopaths, it appears that it works provided right remedy is selected. Science side see everything in sunlight they in moon light. It does not invalidate moon light.

I don't think the adsorption theory is very important, if your aim is to put homeopathy on a scientific footing as useful medicine. All you really need to do is to test the medical efficacy of substances in homeopathic quantities, under controlled conditions. Why has the homeopathic industry not already done any such rigorous scientific tests?

First it is recently pointed out. 2nd they may not be really interested. Otherwise it will be hijacked from them.

Okay. So has any testing been done to confirm that very high homeopathic dilutions of various substances (e.g. the salts you mentioned) produce measurable physiological responses, distinguishable from control solutions of pure water? If not, why not?


I don't know what you're referring to. After you talking about shining lights on people in low quantities, or something like that? Never mind, we can concentrate on our discussion of dilutions if you like.

My 2nd quest in OP was that somewhat, how molecular quantity was not traced in water memory varification when logically it is possible. Both desorbed active substances and of glass wall (mostly Silica)? Something fishy?

 

[river]

Went back to the OP . I get it . I'll just leave it there...( this is not what I mean't about water memory .)

 

[KUMAR5]

Went back to the OP . I get it . I'll just leave it there...( this is not what I mean't about water memory .)

Yes, why to go into unnecessory complex details. Main purpose of water memory experiment was to justify information presence of actíve substsnces in higher dilutíons, which is now otherwise justified in this topic by adsorption theory. So no sense of complexicity. Yes, you can still aurgue on, how these molecular/information presence was not traced on varification of water memory experiment. Either due to odd preceotion or due to wrong type of dilution used for varification or some weakness in varification?

 

[James R]

Main purpose of water memory experiment was to justify information presence of actíve substsnces in higher dilutíons, which is now otherwise justified in this topic by adsorption theory.

You accept, then, that water has no "memory", and you're proposing that, instead, adsorption may retain tiny amounts of "active substances" through many dilutions, if the containers aren't cleaned carefully.

Is that correct?

 

[KUMAR5]

You accept, then, that water has no "memory", and you're proposing that, instead, adsorption may retain tiny amounts of "active substances" through many dilutions, if the containers aren't cleaned carefully.

Is that correct?

Neither way. Since it is quite complex idea and unnecessary I do not need to go deep into it. It is open to more advsnced science people to understand that if some amount of active substsnce is present inn water persistently, does it make some structural changes ín water molecules or not? If it make, is it in some form of memory or not? Otherwase persistsnce presence of molecules in water tihemseleve serve as a memory of active substsnce or not? It is just innecessary pulling skin from hair not when tiny smount is justified.

 

[James R]

Neither way.

You no longer consider your adsorption theory important? Okay. I was under the impression that it was your focus in this thread.

It is open to more advsnced science people to understand that if some amount of active substsnce is present inn water persistently, does it make some structural changes ín water molecules or not?

What do you mean by structural changes in the water molecules?

Also, it seems obvious that if only small amounts of impurities are dissolved in the water, then they could have no large-scale effects on the bulk of the water. Does it not?

If it make, is it in some form of memory or not?

I don't understand why you're still talking about memory. Memory refers to substances that were in the water in the past but which are no longer present. But you're talking about substances that are still measurably present in the water. What is the relevance of "memory"?

Otherwase persistsnce presence of molecules in water tihemseleve serve as a memory of active substsnce or not?

If active substance molecules are present, why does the water need any "memory"? I don't understand. You could explain any effects as a result of the active substances in the water, couldn't you?

I note, by the way, that the much bigger problem you face is in showing that there are any "effects" on human health of tiny residual amounts of active substances in water. As far as I am aware, there is no evidence from controlled trials of any such effects.

 

[KUMAR5]

You no longer consider your adsorption theory important? Okay. I was under the impression that it was your focus in this thread.


What do you mean by structural changes in the water molecules?

By strutural change I mean, any change in water molecule structure due to close contact of molecules of other substances with it. I have just suspected it and open to seiner scienc e people to check it because smell and taste difference of water was felt by me in that syrup bottle example.

Also, it seems obvious that if only small amounts of impurities are dissolved in the water, then they could have no large-scale effects on the bulk of the water. Does it not?

My purpose for this topic was to justify molecular presence of active substances in higher dilution due to adsorption theory but not to justify its efficacy. Such purpose is fulfilled. Previously, every odd against homeopathy was first based on that, its dilutions were taken as nothing other than plain water but now that perception is justified as false. For efficacy, it can be other big topic beyond the scope of this topic(though I indicated few).

I don't understand why you're still talking about memory. Memory refers to substances that were in the water in the past but which are no longer present. But you're talking about substances that are still measurably present in the water. What is the relevance of "memory"?

I considered and justified substances that were in the water in the past and are also at present(due to adsorption theory). Tiny or sufficient, is a different and irrelevant issue.

If active substance molecules are present, why does the water need any "memory"? I don't understand. You could explain any effects as a result of the active substances in the water, couldn't you?

Yes, when active substances are present, I do not need water memory justification. I just opened it for research by seiner science people for their understanding.

I note, by the way, that the much bigger problem you face is in showing that there are any "effects" on human health of tiny residual amounts of active substances in water. As far as I am aware, there is no evidence from controlled trials of any such effects.

I had already cleared this issue in this topic. First I am not taking efficacy in this topic. 2nd, clinical trials can fail to show same outcome as modern medicines can show by taking apparency of outcomes of more and less prominent effects+ side effects depending on different nature of agents. Odd perceptions and wrong type of dilutions used for trial are some other issues.

 

[billvon]

It is open to more advsnced science people to understand that if some amount of active substsnce is present inn water persistently, does it make some structural changes ín water molecules or not?

Not. Water is water.

Otherwase persistsnce presence of molecules in water tihemseleve serve as a memory of active substsnce or not?

If other molecules are present, the water does not contain a memory of the molecules. The water contains the molecules.

 

[KUMAR5]

Not. Water is water.

If other molecules are present, the water does not contain a memory of the molecules. The water contains the molecules.

Okay as you say. I shall consider it, as if few small plastic balls are flotting in water. Okay?

I don't know, whether this link suggest something relevant or not?

http://butane.chem.uiuc.edu/pshapley/GenChem1/L20/2.html

Moreover, something was also mentioned in this topic by
paddoboy that water structure comeback in its original form in nanoseconds after solutes are removed from it. But if solutes are always present then? It will mean, water will remain in some changed form. Not so?

 

[KUMAR5]

To all,

Btw, refer to that syrup observation, I mentioned:-

Our sensation power is not so strong as of few other species and as of modern measuring precision technology.

Then, if I can sense impression of that Syrup even after many normal washings and refilling, should we take
presence of syrup's molecules as a tiny amount esp in hormesis sense?

Odor threshold value seems of some substances seems to be given on this link:-
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3278675/

It it tiny?

 

[KUMAR5]

Hello all,

This topic opened many areas for better understanding of higher dilutions as under:-

1. Possible Molecular/Information presence of active and other substances in higher dilutions which was otherwise
taken as nil presence previously.

2. Possibility of memory presence of active and other substances in water due to persistent molecular presence of these in higher dilutions. For advanced research.

3. Revisiting of clinical trials based on different nature of these dilutions as compared to modern medicines.

4. Revisiting of clinical trials by using right type of dilutions justified by adsorption theory as presented in this topic.

5. To delete odd perceptions about higher dilutions now, base data of live evidances and do further research by and for science since it can quite contribute to humanity. Science community is entrusted such work of research as major means are allotted to them by administrating authorities.

Hope you will find above in order.

Can we now conclude finally? I am happy by these discussions.

 

[KUMAR5]

6 to better understand stimulation of physiological activities by low dose which were otherwise inhibited in line of Hormesis snd other effects from low dose. Odd quantities, either on higher side or on lower side, if bring odd effects of healing or/and harming nature,?

Few more I want to mention that keeping odd perception esp in changing world is not a good habit. It resist one to acquire new understandings with equanimity. Say for example, a person in his house keep petception that doors of all' rooms will either be fully open or fully closed. He cross or open those without any issue But if anyday if any door is hslf closed. Then he can met with a big accident if move in dark with odd perception that it will be fully open or fully vlosed. A stranger will be cautious n will take care.

About point no 2. I noted, if we take water from purifier n taste it, then boil it snd cool it at same room temperature, we feel change in its taste. Such change may also persist. How? Does it mean water keep memory of boiling?

 

[river]

Yes, why to go into unnecessory complex details. Main purpose of water memory experiment was to justify information presence of actíve substsnces in higher dilutíons, which is now otherwise justified in this topic by adsorption theory. So no sense of complexicity. Yes, you can still aurgue on, how these molecular/information presence was not traced on varification of water memory experiment. Either due to odd preceotion or due to wrong type of dilution used for varification or some weakness in varification?

Interesting .

There are micro-organisms that live and thrive deep in the Earths crust . And they all need Water . Where does that water come from ? Is the question . Does cooling from deep depth to lesser and lesser depth make a condensation ? The closer to the surface the more water is made .

 

[James R]

There are micro-organisms that live and thrive deep in the Earths crust . And they all need Water . Where does that water come from ?

It seems likely that there's already a lot of water inside the Earth, not just on the surface.

 

[river]

river said: ↑
There are micro-organisms that live and thrive deep in the Earths crust . And they all need Water . Where does that water come from ?

It seems likely that there's already a lot of water inside the Earth, not just on the surface.

Obviously

What is are the processes that produces this water ? At very deep depths in the Earths Crust ?

 

[KUMAR5]

I posted it in my other topic but feel it also deserve to be posted here.
"Conclusion: There is clear evidence that homeopathic solutions cannot be considered as pure water as commonly assumed. Instead, we have evidenced a clear memory effect upon dilution/potentization of a substance (water, lactose, copper, gelsemium) reflected by different rotational correlationtimesand average H⋯H distances.'
https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/2010/2010.07287.pdf

Your comments pls

 

[Sarkus]

Just another example of pathological water science:
https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/2010/2010.07287.pdf