Science is Garbage (read 1st post then vote)

[Prince_James]

If the mind has aspects which are non-physical, or is entirely non-physical, then by the current definition of science, science cannot treat it.

As a dualist ambigiously between property and substance dualism, I thus permit science, as understood, to be a limited field of inquiry.

 

[Asguard]

actually the mind is concidered to be an emergent property which is why science has trouble understanding how it works. It has nothing to do with being special at all, its just a complex system like the weather or the solor system.

If we take the solor system baring major changes (like mars slingshoting into earth) there comes a point where we cant predict what the system as a whole will look like with any acuracy. This is part of the chaos theory. For the weather its a couple of days, for the solor system its a few million years (i think) but there comes a point where predictions become impossable with current technology and science. The brain is no different, its just another complex system and there for subject to the rules of chaos and emergence. The only difference is that with the brain we have another way in and thats through the "mind" or more acuratly, the person who your talking to. They can tell you what its like from the inside rather than just whats happerning from the outside. This is why psycology and neroscience are not mutually exslusive

 

[John99]

Joy is an evolved trait necessary to the health of a living being, Epicurus described that centuries ago. No creature could survive in a perpetual state of pain and depression. Evolution leads to life that is suited to it's surroundings, pleasure guides it to do the beneficial thing, mostly reproduce.

Spidergoat, does a rat feel JOY?...Does an Eagle? You must be obswerving contentment. In fact where have you observed joy in non human creatures?

ok, a doggie.

No creature could survive in a perpetual state of pain and depression

And this would be present without joy?

 

[Jozen-Bo]

I've decided that science cannot explain everything, and as such, science is merely a way for us humans to attempt to control our environment around us.

Scientists think they can explain joy. No scientist out there can actually prove any theory that tries to explain joy. In fact, I would go as far to say that self awareness is in-fact "magic" which cannot be explained away by any godless scientist. They will try to tell you that its all just brain chemicals, and that you're pretty much just a complex "bio-robot." That is the most dull outlook on life to have ever hit humanity in the face!!! Those scientists lead gray and boring lives. They have no "magic" in their lives because they refuse to see it, in order to promote their careers towards higher pay, greater laziness and intensified close-mindedness... LOL

Perhaps there is a computer out there which is programmed to make "pleasurable music" but I tell you this, no computer will ever be able to enjoy music. Artificial Intelligence is a physical impossibility. Knowledge cannot be mixed with feeling by human hands, and any knowledge that cannot feel, such as your computer, is therefore a "Dead Zoo."

:bravo::bravo::bravo:

 

[Asguard]

actually my dog is very happy when we play with her
even my partners guinie pigs get happy

If i had an ECG i could even prove that and show there moods definitivly

 

[Prince_James]

Asguard:

actually the mind is concidered to be an emergent property which is why science has trouble understanding how it works. It has nothing to do with being special at all, its just a complex system like the weather or the solor system.

THe problem is the mind could have non-physical emergent properties. In fact, it does have those properties, but it is up in the air if it is emergent or not.

If we take the solor system baring major changes (like mars slingshoting into earth) there comes a point where we cant predict what the system as a whole will look like with any acuracy. This is part of the chaos theory. For the weather its a couple of days, for the solor system its a few million years (i think) but there comes a point where predictions become impossable with current technology and science. The brain is no different, its just another complex system and there for subject to the rules of chaos and emergence. The only difference is that with the brain we have another way in and thats through the "mind" or more acuratly, the person who your talking to. They can tell you what its like from the inside rather than just whats happerning from the outside. This is why psycology and neroscience are not mutually exslusive

No, the solar system is predictable, as the laws are inviolate.

 

[John99]

actually my dog is very happy when we play with her
even my partners guinie pigs get happy

If i had an ECG i could even prove that and show there moods definitivly

I said a rat and an eagle. Not pets. Under what circumstances would a wild rat feel joy? I bet even giving birth would not produce this emotion.

 

[Asguard]

what about dolphins?

and i sugest you check that again, we dont even know what side of the sun the earth will be on if you go that far out

 

[Prince_James]

Asguard:

and i sugest you check that again, we dont even know what side of the sun the earth will be on if you go that far out

Yeha we do. We have perfect calculations.

 

[Prince_James]

John99:

I said a rat and an eagle. Not pets. Under what circumstances would a wild rat feel joy? I bet even giving birth would not produce this emotion.

Getting laid.

Finding an especially delicious morsel of food - or finding food after nearly starving to death.

 

[Asguard]

i will have to go check the book i was reading that in again to give you a reference

 

[Vkothii]

The first option in this poll is a logical contradiction. It says we use garbage - that's refuse, ordure, waste; you know, that stuff - to control our environment.
It appears to assume the responder knows what "control the environment" is supposed to mean, but WTF does it mean? Does anyone know?

The second option appears to be similarly ass-about-face. (pun intended)

 

[John99]

I dont know about dolphins. Dogs do seem to show something closer to joy but it can be a mixture of excitement and contentment.

Facial exporessions are alos non existant. Can a living creature feel joy with no corresponding facial expression?

 

[Read-Only]

Read-Only: It doesn't take a Sherlock to see that understanding how things work can get you a really fat ego, so fat that the existence of an eternal God becomes an impossibility in that mind.

Read-Only, once you get over your tremendously fat ego, please return to the religion threads and reconsider.

Once again, you have absolutely NO idea what you are talking about!!

I have no problem with ego at all and am a firm believer in God. I also believe he gave us a brain that enabled us to learn and better understand how to care for ourselves and others. AND the most direct path to that is called SCIENCE!!!!

So once you get over YOUR fat ego problem and realize that you are in no position that allows you to presume what others think then, and only then, will I raise my opinion of you to a higher level than a nincompoop.

 

[Randwolf]

But if you never ask questions then you never learn anything.

I think I'm falling in love with you, Cutsie...

Mother, what do you propose as an alternative to "science" here?

 

[Enterprise-D]

I've decided that religion cannot explain everything, and as such, is merely a way for some humans to attempt to control the rest of us.

Theists (especially fundamentalists) think they can explain joy. No theist out there can actually prove any of their theories that tries to explain joy. In fact, I would go as far to say that self awareness is an axiom which need not be explained by anyone; however some folks need to cling to cartoonland - requiring a more sensationalist explanation to be happy. They will try to tell you that its more than just brain chemicals and perceptions, and that you're pretty much just a complex "bio-puppet" on the strings of some cosmic thespian. That is the most deluded outlook on life to have ever hit humanity in the face!!! Those theists lead some quite fake lives. They must have "magic" in their lives because they refuse to interact with reality, in order to foist their own beliefs onto others that have accepted that morality and happiness are their own responsibility; ironically accusing the more acclimated humans of being lazy, while refusing to accept their own intellectual charge of destiny.

Perhaps there are currently unexplainable phenomena out there...but I'll say this, science as an organization, and indeed natural human curiosity will not leave them in mystery forever. I will stop there, because the original post zips among different targets of human advancement to downcry in favour of its own religious bias, and I prefer to end with a smooth flow.

 

[GeoffP]

Colourless gray empty lives??

Oh wait: I do have one of those. Huh.

 

[Cazzo]

I've decided that science cannot explain everything, and as such, science is merely a way for us humans to attempt to control our environment around us.

I think "understanding" our environment would be a more accurate statement.

 

[spidergoat]

Spidergoat, does a rat feel JOY?...Does an Eagle? You must be obswerving contentment. In fact where have you observed joy in non human creatures?

ok, a doggie.

No creature could survive in a perpetual state of pain and depression

And this would be present without joy?

Joy is the absense of discomfort. Rats have been known to self-administer opiates and drugs, so we know they can feel this kind of pleasure. They certainly have sex alot, and if it weren't pleasurable, they wouldn't do it.

If the mind has aspects which are non-physical, or is entirely non-physical, then by the current definition of science, science cannot treat it.

As a dualist ambigiously between property and substance dualism, I thus permit science, as understood, to be a limited field of inquiry.

How could you find out if there were anything non-physical without the methods of science? Nothing is beyond scientific investigation. There is also no definition of science.

I dont know about dolphins. Dogs do seem to show something closer to joy but it can be a mixture of excitement and contentment.

Facial exporessions are alos non existant. Can a living creature feel joy with no corresponding facial expression?

Facial expressions are for primates. Animals of other kinds use body language.

 

[CharonZ]

Spidergoat, does a rat feel JOY?...Does an Eagle? You must be obswerving contentment. In fact where have you observed joy in non human creatures?

Why, yes. In the simplest case by observing the activity of brain regions associated with joy in the limbic system.