SciContest! Why can't matter be made of photons?
- Thread starter BenTheMan
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Finally there is something we can agree aboutI would add that in a photon-only universe the strong force and gravity must also be electromagnetic.
This is QuarkHead's answer, except much less metered.
There's no way to account for the strength of forces using only electromagnetism.
Occam's razor is not a fundamental law, it is a guiding principle for selecting one theory among many.
Example: One can build a geocentric universe and make it consistent by adding epicycles. What you find, however, is that you end up with a model that is endlessly complicated. You can explain all of the observations, but you have to add many new parameters. Enter the heliocentric (Copernican) universe. While it is still not right (sun is not at center of universe), it needs no epicycles. The motion of the planets about the sun in conveniently described in terms of only a few parameters. When comparing the two theories, one is simple with a few parameters, and one is complicated with many parameters. Both can (potentially) explain the observations.
Occam's razor is just common sense---the less input parameters your theory has, the more predictive it is. And we are aiming for predictability, so the heliocentric universe wins.
Ok, so it looks like we're down to Vern and Vkothii arguing about Vern's ideas, so I'm going to close the contest to new entries. I will repost to current entry list below, and I will ask for critiques of the various entries. Some of you have done this already, and I would ask you to kindly sumarize your critique.
Be sure to tell me which entry you're critiquing.
Be sure to tell me which entry you're critiquing.
Entry #1: from ashura
Layman entry: Matter has mass. Photons are massless. Ergo, matter can't be made of photons.
CptBork pointed out that ashura REALLY means rest mass.
Entry #2: from Diode - Man
Photons are products of excited (heated) atomic matter. The wave frequency (beats or waves per second) of the photons of white light are so high that it can reach 400 to 790,000,000,000,000 waves per second! (Tera-hertz frequency)
With such erratic motions it would be impossible for a photon to become a solid or permanent piece of any molecular or atomic configuration. If in a laboratory, one attempted to forcibly make a photon join in with say a particle of Earth dirt, the photon would just bounce away unable to be joined with the solid matter. It may be the case because the photon cannot be contained in a magnetic field.
Ultimately however, like electricity, we can only know what a photon DOES and not what constructs it, it is I believe, what I'm going to term a "base unit" of the Universe.
(I am a "layman"... have I come close on my statements? ) ”
Entry #3: from Steve100
If two particles with the same mass are made of photons, they must be made of the same amount of photons.
This would make the 2 particles have identical properties, and we already know that we can have particles with different properties and the same mass.
Therefore the particles cannot be made of photons.
mass = relativistic mass
Entry #4: from QuarkHead (in limerick form)
A physicist (mad as a hatter)
Once pondered the nature of matter.
He concluded "it's light";
But we know that's not right,
Since the absence of forces
Would take less than two horses
To cause all matter to shatter.
Entry #5: from melodicbard
Photon does not have charge.
Matter can carry positive or negative charge.
Entry #6: from Vkothii. I think I missed this one before.
Photons are perturbations in the EM field and don't couple to the putative Higgs field.
Like waves on the surface of a liquid are perturbations of the surface, and don't displace (carry) any liquid, except as part of the momentum-wave's [vertical] time-displacement. Ocean waves don't have mass either.
Particles like electrons, can 'surf' a wave, like a bit of wood or a surfer can surf an ocean wave. That's an interaction with the wavefront - a charged electron is affected by the electric wave component of a coherent group of photons.
Fundamental particles with 'rest' mass [can] couple to both fields.
A photon doesn't generally interact with another photon, except at the extreme of the frequency range, where two 'extreme' photons with sufficient momentum have a greater probability (the uncertainty principle) of massive (gamma-gamma) interaction when they encounter each other, and interact as massive particle-antiparticle pairs, but not as photons.
Something like that.
Entry #7: from Cyperium
Why can't mass be made of photons?
Photons are the result of the energy released when mass converts or when something of higher energy enters a lower state (then the energy difference is released as photons to preserve the energy total)
So photons preserves the energy, so then there is no need for preservation in the form of photons, if the energy is already preserved in mass.
You can convert photons to mass, or mass to photons. But photons cannot be mass.
Entry #8: from Janus
Why matter can not be made up of photons.
Argument:
The radius of the Electron is less than 10^-13 m
The mass of the Electron is 9.1e-31 kg
The energy equivalence of the mass of an electron is 8.14e-14 joules
The wavelength of a single photon with the energy equivalence of the mass of an electron is 2.43e-12 m, about 10 times the diameter of the electron.
Ergo, for an electron to be made up of a single photon, it would have to be made up of something larger than its own diameter.
Trying to have the electron being made up of more than one photon makes the problem worse. Each photon would have to have a fraction of the energy equivalence of the electron, and as the energy of a photon decreases, its wavelength increases.
Entry #9: from...Vern?
BenTheMan; an entry. In all of the photon theories I can find, not one of them can make a neutrino out of photons. Maybe it is not fair; you posted this yourself But I have known it for years.
Entry #10: from temur
Have somebody already said spin? Photon has spin 1, and you cannot make particles with spin 1/2 with this.
Entry #11: from CptBork
and ordinary matter would quickly decay into photons if its was simply composed of bunches of them.
Layman entry: Matter has mass. Photons are massless. Ergo, matter can't be made of photons.
CptBork pointed out that ashura REALLY means rest mass.
Entry #2: from Diode - Man
Photons are products of excited (heated) atomic matter. The wave frequency (beats or waves per second) of the photons of white light are so high that it can reach 400 to 790,000,000,000,000 waves per second! (Tera-hertz frequency)
With such erratic motions it would be impossible for a photon to become a solid or permanent piece of any molecular or atomic configuration. If in a laboratory, one attempted to forcibly make a photon join in with say a particle of Earth dirt, the photon would just bounce away unable to be joined with the solid matter. It may be the case because the photon cannot be contained in a magnetic field.
Ultimately however, like electricity, we can only know what a photon DOES and not what constructs it, it is I believe, what I'm going to term a "base unit" of the Universe.
(I am a "layman"... have I come close on my statements? ) ”
Entry #3: from Steve100
If two particles with the same mass are made of photons, they must be made of the same amount of photons.
This would make the 2 particles have identical properties, and we already know that we can have particles with different properties and the same mass.
Therefore the particles cannot be made of photons.
mass = relativistic mass
Entry #4: from QuarkHead (in limerick form)
A physicist (mad as a hatter)
Once pondered the nature of matter.
He concluded "it's light";
But we know that's not right,
Since the absence of forces
Would take less than two horses
To cause all matter to shatter.
Entry #5: from melodicbard
Photon does not have charge.
Matter can carry positive or negative charge.
Entry #6: from Vkothii. I think I missed this one before.
Photons are perturbations in the EM field and don't couple to the putative Higgs field.
Like waves on the surface of a liquid are perturbations of the surface, and don't displace (carry) any liquid, except as part of the momentum-wave's [vertical] time-displacement. Ocean waves don't have mass either.
Particles like electrons, can 'surf' a wave, like a bit of wood or a surfer can surf an ocean wave. That's an interaction with the wavefront - a charged electron is affected by the electric wave component of a coherent group of photons.
Fundamental particles with 'rest' mass [can] couple to both fields.
A photon doesn't generally interact with another photon, except at the extreme of the frequency range, where two 'extreme' photons with sufficient momentum have a greater probability (the uncertainty principle) of massive (gamma-gamma) interaction when they encounter each other, and interact as massive particle-antiparticle pairs, but not as photons.
Something like that.
Entry #7: from Cyperium
Why can't mass be made of photons?
Photons are the result of the energy released when mass converts or when something of higher energy enters a lower state (then the energy difference is released as photons to preserve the energy total)
So photons preserves the energy, so then there is no need for preservation in the form of photons, if the energy is already preserved in mass.
You can convert photons to mass, or mass to photons. But photons cannot be mass.
Entry #8: from Janus
Why matter can not be made up of photons.
Argument:
The radius of the Electron is less than 10^-13 m
The mass of the Electron is 9.1e-31 kg
The energy equivalence of the mass of an electron is 8.14e-14 joules
The wavelength of a single photon with the energy equivalence of the mass of an electron is 2.43e-12 m, about 10 times the diameter of the electron.
Ergo, for an electron to be made up of a single photon, it would have to be made up of something larger than its own diameter.
Trying to have the electron being made up of more than one photon makes the problem worse. Each photon would have to have a fraction of the energy equivalence of the electron, and as the energy of a photon decreases, its wavelength increases.
Entry #9: from...Vern?
BenTheMan; an entry. In all of the photon theories I can find, not one of them can make a neutrino out of photons. Maybe it is not fair; you posted this yourself But I have known it for years.
Entry #10: from temur
Have somebody already said spin? Photon has spin 1, and you cannot make particles with spin 1/2 with this.
Entry #11: from CptBork
and ordinary matter would quickly decay into photons if its was simply composed of bunches of them.
Absolutely. And the word speculative makes me doubtful
Everything you've presented is speculative, and not convincing.A photon-only universe advocate would speculate that the electric forces on the inner shells is greater than the electrons force as shown in this scheme.quarkhead said:
Ok Ben, here is a summary of my arguments:
"Entry #1: from ashura
Layman entry: Matter has mass. Photons are massless. Ergo, matter can't be made of photons.
CptBork pointed out that ashura REALLY means rest mass."
---I believe the concensus is that mass is a property of or a product of energy. According to Mr Higgs matter/mass IS in fact derived from that which is massless.
"Entry #2: from Diode - Man
...With such erratic motions it would be impossible for a photon to become a solid or permanent piece of any molecular or atomic configuration.... ” - etc.
---Please refer to the de Broglie Atomic Model
As stated photons are absorbed by, conserved by and emmitted by electrons (and hence atoms).
Since photons DO in fact "become part of atomic configurations", I think Entry #2 is defunct.
"Entry #3: from Steve100
If two particles with the same mass are made of photons, they must be made of the same amount of photons.
This would make the 2 particles have identical properties, and we already know that we can have particles with different properties and the same mass.
Therefore the particles cannot be made of photons."
---Photons come with varying energies depending on their frequency.
Differing energies result in differing masses during any type of mass/energy conversion.
As such, particles of equal mass would not necessarily be made of the same number of photons. I therefore think Entry #3 is defunct.
"Entry #5: from melodicbard
Photon does not have charge.
Matter can carry positive or negative charge."
---This is nonsensical.
Matter may be composed of components that are charged or neutral.
The atomic nucleus contains both protons and neutrons.
"Entry #7: from Cyperium
...there is no need for preservation in the form of photons, if the energy is already preserved in mass.
You can convert photons to mass, or mass to photons. But photons cannot be mass. "
--- If "you can convert photons to mass and mass to photons" then OBVIOUSLY photons CAN be mass- and vice versa.
"Entry #8: from Janus
Argument:
...The wavelength of a single photon with the energy equivalence of the mass of an electron is 2.43e-12 m, about 10 times the diameter of the electron.
Ergo, for an electron to be made up of a single photon, it would have to be made up of something larger than its own diameter."
---Fact: Electrons absorb photons.
They conserve whatever photons are.
They emit photons. This entry is defunct.
"Entry #1: from ashura
Layman entry: Matter has mass. Photons are massless. Ergo, matter can't be made of photons.
CptBork pointed out that ashura REALLY means rest mass."
---I believe the concensus is that mass is a property of or a product of energy. According to Mr Higgs matter/mass IS in fact derived from that which is massless.
"Entry #2: from Diode - Man
...With such erratic motions it would be impossible for a photon to become a solid or permanent piece of any molecular or atomic configuration.... ” - etc.
---Please refer to the de Broglie Atomic Model
As stated photons are absorbed by, conserved by and emmitted by electrons (and hence atoms).
Since photons DO in fact "become part of atomic configurations", I think Entry #2 is defunct.
"Entry #3: from Steve100
If two particles with the same mass are made of photons, they must be made of the same amount of photons.
This would make the 2 particles have identical properties, and we already know that we can have particles with different properties and the same mass.
Therefore the particles cannot be made of photons."
---Photons come with varying energies depending on their frequency.
Differing energies result in differing masses during any type of mass/energy conversion.
As such, particles of equal mass would not necessarily be made of the same number of photons. I therefore think Entry #3 is defunct.
"Entry #5: from melodicbard
Photon does not have charge.
Matter can carry positive or negative charge."
---This is nonsensical.
Matter may be composed of components that are charged or neutral.
The atomic nucleus contains both protons and neutrons.
"Entry #7: from Cyperium
...there is no need for preservation in the form of photons, if the energy is already preserved in mass.
You can convert photons to mass, or mass to photons. But photons cannot be mass. "
--- If "you can convert photons to mass and mass to photons" then OBVIOUSLY photons CAN be mass- and vice versa.
"Entry #8: from Janus
Argument:
...The wavelength of a single photon with the energy equivalence of the mass of an electron is 2.43e-12 m, about 10 times the diameter of the electron.
Ergo, for an electron to be made up of a single photon, it would have to be made up of something larger than its own diameter."
---Fact: Electrons absorb photons.
They conserve whatever photons are.
They emit photons. This entry is defunct.
Maybe it might useful to do a thought experiment as a test of the best entry. What if suddenly you find yourself in an unknown universe with little green men. They tell you that you're in a universe that is a photon-only universe. They offer you the use of any experiment with any equipment you want and your task is to discover if you really are in such a universe.
Which entry would work as an experiment to show that you are not in such a universe.
Which entry would work as an experiment to show that you are not in such a universe.
I just ask that someone who is not you (or alphaNumeric) carefully consider my arguments.
The more I hear your comments, the more closed minded you seem. The beginning of that suggestion "They tell you that you are in a photon only universe"... come on, isn't this concept obtuse enough in the current universe? I cringe at the suggestion of considering it from the perspective of a little green man in an alternate reality.
And I'm on YOUR side. Kinda. I believe in an Energy only universe.
Atoms vibrate, and in a thermodynamic gas of atoms, which is also distributing itself or moving around in terms of individual particles - the overall energy is called heat.
If you energise a gas enough it gives off visible radiation, but it's emitting infrared all the time - which is electromagnetic radiation. So you can get atoms to emit photons by making them vibrate and collide with each other.
If you energise a gas enough it gives off visible radiation, but it's emitting infrared all the time - which is electromagnetic radiation. So you can get atoms to emit photons by making them vibrate and collide with each other.
I shouldn't have said closed minded.
...it explains that a photon is something an atom will make if it shakes around, or if atoms get near each other, electrons recoil, and photons of infrared appear - IR is equivalent to vibrational modes of atoms.
In IR spectroscopy it's how you characterise different molecular groups.
In IR spectroscopy it's how you characterise different molecular groups.
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