ReighnStorm said:
Animals are born a certain way just like human animals. We all have feelings even as children when things aren't right. (won't give examples on that). you do not speak for all people....what you're doing is assuming those things. You can't say with definitive proof that a child would not recognize and dislike the difference!
So you're telling me that a 5 month old child who has homosexual parents would recognise and dislike their parents because they are homosexual? You'd say the same thing for a 1 or 2 year old as well? A child is born as a blank slate. Bigotry and prejudism is a learnt behaviour. Like a small child won't dislike a child from another race unless it is taught to do so.
People commit suicide for a number of reasons. And you agreed with 3 or more of my points! You can't tell me with definitive proof why all people gay commit suicide.
Yes people commit suicide for a number of reasons. And I agreed that homosexuals committed suicide because of the reasons you posted. What you have failed to understand yet again, is that the reasons you've posted shows that they are committing suicide because of abuse and mistreatment from people who hold you kind of views. Lets look at the figures you have posted several times on here:
http://moodle.ed.uiuc.edu/wiked/index.php/GLBTC
o Lesbian and gay youth commit 30% of the completed suicides annually with suicide being the leading cause of death.
o 28% of gay/lesbians high school students in a national study were seen to have dropped out of school
because of harassment resulting from their sexual orientation.
o 45% of gay and 20% of lesbian
reports having experienced verbal harassment and or physical violence as a result of their sexual orientation during high school (Youth Pride Inc.1997)
Dropout 28% of gay/lesbian high school students in a national study were seen to have dropped out of school because of harassment resulting from their sexual orientation.
Violence: 45% of gay and 20% of lesbians
report having experienced verbal harassment and/or physical violence as a result of their sexual orientation during high school
Homelessness: 26% of gay and lesbian youth are
forced to leave home because of conflicts with their families over their sexual identities.
Student Attitudes: 97% of students in public high schools
report regularly hearing homophobic remarks from their peers.
Now note the reasons in bold. The figures state that 30% of all youth suicide are committed by homosexual teenagers. That 70% of youth suicide are committed by heterosexuals is also ignored by you. Now look at the figures underneath underneath the suicide rate and see the amount of abuse, both physical and verbal, that homosexual youths have to deal with. Now put two and two together. Why do you think 30% of the youth who commit suicide are homosexual? Could their treatment by people with your views and opinions have something to do with it? After all, if a child goes to school and is continuously abused and beaten up because they are homosexual, you don't think that could be seen to be one of the primary factors in that child committing suicide? And then the child goes home and is abused at home as well because they are homosexual. The child is discriminated against by all of society by people with views such as yours. You don't think that would contribute to the child committing suicide?
When a child is taught by its parents and its society that homosexuality is "bad, wrong, disgusting, depressing, degrading and nasty" (your own words from throughout this thread), you don't think that child is going to portray what it has been taught when it comes across another child who is homosexual? Now imagine the child who grows up in a home where such thoughts are often taught and in a society that thinks that way, you don't think that will adversely affect the homosexual child?
Both clinical and epidemiological literature point to elevated rates of suicidal behaviours in Gay, Lesbian and Bisexual Youth (GLBY). Recent North American and New Zealand studies of large populations (especially the US Youth Risk Behavior Surveys from several States) indicate that gay, lesbian and bisexual adolescents (and males in particular) can have rates of serious suicide attempts which are least four times those in apparently heterosexual youth. There are various reasons why this figure is likely to be an underestimate.
Reasons for these elevated rates of suicidal behaviour include a climate of homophobic persecution in schools, and sometimes in family and community - values and actions which stigmatise homosexuality and which the youth who has not yet ‘come out’ has to endure in silence.
Link
Now do you see why your figures point to youth suicide amongst homosexuals is caused by people with views such as yours? You have exclaimed several times that you find them disgusting and other awful terms which I don't wish to repeat again. People saying such things and treating them that way is a major factor why they do commit suicide. You may wish to deny it, but research has proven otherwise.
You can't assure me of anything. You don't make any decisions! The civil rights for AA's can't die out because of people like you. If equal rights do matter to you then why are you so against my EQUAL right to voice what I feel about gays marrying and adopting. You're practicing the very same thing you claim to hate! WOW!
Your beliefs are your own. I went into my studies in the bid of working for equal rights and human rights, which I believe go hand in hand in many ways and having been doing for quite a while now. You live in a free society where your views can be freely expressed. But when those views are then used by the State as a further means to ensure the repression and discrimination of people within your society while you sit there and cheer along, then people like me will speak out against people like you. It is people with views such as yours that gives the State the power to discriminate. When the State puts basic rights up for a popular vote, you aren't bothered by that? You don't find it disturbing? You even posted a quote stating that one's rights should never be put up for the popular vote. The fact that it is tells me that people with views such as yours are winning the fight
against giving everyone equal rights.
I brought the statistics to your face to show you what is happening to gays. What are you trying to do about it?....Nothing at all except talk about how you can't sleep at night because you hate me for having an opinion. Again WOW! All the name calling is all you have isn't it. You can't have a discussion without it? Feel better now? The only person bringing up my blackness is you...which I've told you time and again I'm not just black...I carry the blood of slavers and the slaves, I'm on both sides of the fence. there is no superioty in my gene pool...there mixed which I keep having to say to you. I guess you're just on a rant! You don't like blacks, religion, personal freedom (opinions), truth, honesty and you have no respect for the conversation. I said let the cause die out (once again) meaning let them marry and go through their turmoil. Everyone has turmoil whatever the reasons may be!
How do you know what I do about it? You do not know what I do for a living Reighn, so I'd suggest you say nothing in that regard. I do much more than sit there and "talk". As for the name calling, do you want me to rehash your behaviour in that regard? In all honesty, I do not care what colour you are. I was merely amazed that someone who professes to believe in equal rights for one group of people can be so hateful and would gladly repress the rights of another group of people. As for my not liking blacks? Where exactly have I said that? For your information Reighn, I am a descendant of African slaves and I happen to be very proud of my ancestry, be it the African side and the French and Dutch side. Prouder than you can ever imagine. I am not proud of the fact that some relatives of my ancestors were in fact slave owners, actually the thought sickens me. As for my opinions about religion? What of them? I personally think organised religion is one of the most hypocritical aspects that plague our society. However I don't go around demanding that churches be closed and religions be banned in the way that you appear to go around and say what you say about homosexuals. Personal freedom? Refer to above.
Bells, you're not qualified to assure me on anything, you don't know what every child is thinking or feels. And again about vultures and learned behavior..answer me this. Who taught the vultures their behavior. Everyone is born with prejudice and discrimination. You use these words too loosely! Those behaviors may manifest into something more when their adults.
You think a child is born to discriminate and show prejudice against others? You actually think that a child comes out of the womb with that already imprinted into its brain? Good grief Reighn! A child is born with only the instincts of survival (as in to suckle, etc). A child is not born to discriminate or show prejudiced thoughts. Such behaviours are taught and learned.
The logic is that why haven't we addressed the issues of the crimes first or at least at the same time the laws are changed or being changed. You mean it doesn't infuriate you to know that people are still being treated with this injustice! The government has not made or adjusted tougher laws against hate crime. That's what I'm saying! We should be fighting for that more than fighting for marriage and further adoption. If gays are being murdered and committing suicided (like other hate crime victims), don't you think that needs to be addressed. I would say yes. Your logic in what I say is, "no one should be allowed to marry and no one should be allowed any rights whatsoever." That's not what I said or would ever say. I'm saying that we have greater issues upon us now! Hate crimes against any race should be above all else dealt with! period. Learn from past mistakes! Period. Laws to protect blacks and others hated because of the color of their skin should have been outlined when blacks did finally get the right to be human! Period!
Yes it needs to be addressed. But it does not mean that we should infringe on their rights in the meantime. Of course it infuriates me to think that others are treated that way. Why do you think I've been coming down so hard on you for saying the things you have been saying? What you are saying is that we should put the equal rights of homosexuals on the backburner while we tackle the crimes and abuses they face by people in society who have the same opinion as you do against them. By doing so, it gives people with views such as your own, more power to abuse them and to further diminish their already paltry rights. You may think that homosexual marriages as a trivial issue. But to homosexuals it is a very important issue and they are right in thinking so. The reason being is that it is a central issue to their equal rights. Hate crimes do need to be addressed. But that does not mean that we should not deal with the equal rights of all people at the same time. Both are vitally important Reighn.
That discrimination occurs in society goes without saying. But in fighting discrimination, we must also ensure that people's rights are not infringed upon or diminished. Because if we do not fight for equal rights, we empower those who are doing the actual discrminating. The denial of a homosexual's right to marry empowers others who think that they are disgusting, depressing, nasty, etc, and it allows those people to further discriminate against them. The State sanctions your behaviour and your treatment against homosexuals. I find that to be personally reprehensible. You are correct. You are quite free to voice your opinions about homosexuals. But remember that in doing so, you further empower the State to restrict and further diminish their rights and you also empower others to commit violent acts against them. Just as the racists empowered the State to diminish and to encroach upon the rights of African Americans and Native Americans, you are doing the same thing in regards to homosexuals.
Equal rights is one of
the "greater issues" Reighn. It always has been and it always will be.
