Sagnac and the earth's orbit.

[Pete]

Yes, Jack, I'm well aware of how to derive the Sagnac effect in the inertial frame of the rotational centre.
What I'm leading you toward is how to derive it in the instantaneous inertial frame of the Earth's surface.

So, once again:
If we use Einstein synchronization to set up the transmitter clocks in our hypothetical local positioning system, what errors does that introduce into the transmitter clocks? What corrections will be required at the receiver to compensate? Do you notice that the required compensation is exactly the opposite of the compensation required for Sagnac, so that the total compensation is required is zero?

 

[Jack_]

Yes, Jack, I'm well aware of how to derive the Sagnac effect in the inertial frame of the rotational centre.
What I'm leading you toward is how to derive it in the instantaneous inertial frame of the Earth's surface.

So, once again:
If we use Einstein synchronization to set up the transmitter clocks in our hypothetical local positioning system, what errors does that introduce into the transmitter clocks? What corrections will be required at the receiver to compensate? Do you notice that the required compensation is exactly the opposite of the compensation required for Sagnac, so that the total compensation is required is zero?

OK,

Just do the math.

Don't take so long.

Let's see it for the earth's orbit.

 

[Pete]

Good idea, Jack. Do the math.

If we use Einstein synchronization to set up the transmitter clocks in our hypothetical local positioning system, what errors does that introduce into the transmitter clocks? What corrections will be required at the receiver to compensate?

Do you notice that the required compensation is exactly the opposite of the compensation required for Sagnac, so that the total compensation is required is zero?

 

[Jack_]

Good idea, Jack. Do the math.

If we use Einstein synchronization to set up the transmitter clocks in our hypothetical local positioning system, what errors does that introduce into the transmitter clocks? What corrections will be required at the receiver to compensate?

Do you notice that the required compensation is exactly the opposite of the compensation required for Sagnac, so that the total compensation is required is zero?

No, they do not use this in GPS for the earth's rotation.

Let's stick to the real world and calculate it the way we would as a hand held unit.

 

[Pete]

No, they do not use this in GPS for the earth's rotation.

That's right, they don't. This is a hypothetical situation that will help you resolve your confusion. So can you do the math, or not?

If we use Einstein synchronization to set up the transmitter clocks in our hypothetical local positioning system, what errors does that introduce into the transmitter clocks? What corrections will be required at the receiver to compensate?

Do you notice that the required compensation is exactly the opposite of the compensation required for Sagnac, so that the total compensation is required is zero?

 

[Jack_]

That's right, they don't. This is a hypothetical situation that will help you resolve your confusion. So can you do the math, or not?

If we use Einstein synchronization to set up the transmitter clocks in our hypothetical local positioning system, what errors does that introduce into the transmitter clocks? What corrections will be required at the receiver to compensate?

Do you notice that the required compensation is exactly the opposite of the compensation required for Sagnac, so that the total compensation is required is zero?

I have done the math.

The claimed sync problem is the sagnac effect.

Here is your problem.

If you had no external evidence about the earth's rotation, you would consider it inertial.

I must therefore, do this logically.

You calculate the sagnac from information outside SR indicating SR is a failed theory.

In other words, without outside information not in SR, we could not correctly calculate sagnac for GPS. SR cannot determine anything about motion which is required for sagnac.

SR should be able to self boot.

It cannot.

You are on a failed path.

Therefore, it is a failed theory.

 

[Pete]

I have done the math.

Bullshit. If you had, you could answer the question.

If we use Einstein synchronization to set up the transmitter clocks in our hypothetical local positioning system, what errors does that introduce into the transmitter clocks? What corrections will be required at the receiver to compensate?

Do you notice that the required compensation is exactly the opposite of the compensation required for Sagnac, so that the total compensation is required is zero?

 

[Jack_]

Bullshit. If you had, you could answer the question.

If we use Einstein synchronization to set up the transmitter clocks in our hypothetical local positioning system, what errors does that introduce into the transmitter clocks? What corrections will be required at the receiver to compensate?

Do you notice that the required compensation is exactly the opposite of the compensation required for Sagnac, so that the total compensation is required is zero?

I already told you the sync problem. It is the sagnac effect.

Now, where did you get the amount of the sagnac effect?

Is this from SR?

SR claims the speed of light is measured c from the light emission point in the frame to the unit. It does not.


So, where did you get your sagnac correction?

Are you fudging science?

 

[Pete]

Jack, can you answer this question or not?

If we use Einstein synchronization to set up the transmitter clocks in our hypothetical local positioning system, what errors does that introduce into the transmitter clocks? What corrections will be required at the receiver to compensate?

Do you notice that the required compensation is exactly the opposite of the compensation required for Sagnac, so that the total compensation is required is zero?

 

[Jack_]

Jack, can you answer this question or not?

If we use Einstein synchronization to set up the transmitter clocks in our hypothetical local positioning system, what errors does that introduce into the transmitter clocks? What corrections will be required at the receiver to compensate?

Do you notice that the required compensation is exactly the opposite of the compensation required for Sagnac, so that the total compensation is required is zero?

The transmitter clocks are not at issue.

These are GPS satellites and remain in sync.

Why do I need to teach you all this?

Sagnac is the needed correction to the ground unit.

Where do you get the Sagnac correction?

Stop running so you can learn.

 

[Pete]

What's the matter, Jack?
Can't do the math?
It's a simple scenario, why can't you answer it?

 

[AlphaNumeric]

Stop running so you can learn.

Oh the hypocrisy. You're the one who refused to read a book I suggested which I said addresses precisely the mathematical areas you say are not done properly because you knew it wouldn't tell you what you want to hear.

You simply cannot pretend to be open minded or intellectually curious and some kind of educator of other people when you have absolutely proved you are none of those things. You don't know and you don't want to know.

I'm not religious but one of the things I'd consider as close to a sin as possible is wilful ignorance and you have it in spades.

Got the balls to submit your work to a journal yet? Until then your continued posting simply demonstrates your lack of honesty.

 

[Jack_]

What's the matter, Jack?
Can't do the math?
It's a simple scenario, why can't you answer it?

Here is the Sagnac correction for one way.

∆r = Rv/(c(c+v)) for my thought experiment.

It works for both orbit and rotation.

R is the distance to the satellite.

 

[Jack_]

Oh the hypocrisy. You're the one who refused to read a book I suggested which I said addresses precisely the mathematical areas you say are not done properly because you knew it wouldn't tell you what you want to hear.

You simply cannot pretend to be open minded or intellectually curious and some kind of educator of other people when you have absolutely proved you are none of those things. You don't know and you don't want to know.

I'm not religious but one of the things I'd consider as close to a sin as possible is wilful ignorance and you have it in spades.

Got the balls to submit your work to a journal yet? Until then your continued posting simply demonstrates your lack of honesty.

Can you break the twins contradiction, yes or no?

 

[Pete]

Jack, you're still avoiding my question. Why? Can't do the math, lazy, or don't understand what I'm asking (perhaps my fault)?

If we use Einstein synchronization to set up the transmitter clocks in our hypothetical local positioning system, what errors does that introduce into the transmitter clocks? What corrections will be required at the receiver to compensate?

Do you notice that the required compensation is exactly the opposite of the compensation required for Sagnac, so that the total compensation is required is zero?

 

[Jack_]

Jack, you're still avoiding my question. Why? Can't do the math, lazy, or don't understand what I'm asking (perhaps my fault)?

If we use Einstein synchronization to set up the transmitter clocks in our hypothetical local positioning system, what errors does that introduce into the transmitter clocks? What corrections will be required at the receiver to compensate?

Do you notice that the required compensation is exactly the opposite of the compensation required for Sagnac, so that the total compensation is required is zero?

I said this already.

∆t = Rv/(c(c+v))

Normally, the v is dropped from denominator so,

∆t = Rv/c²

 

[Pete]

You seem to be cutting and pasting equations from somewhere, Jack.
Please explain how that equation relates to the scenario of our local positioning system with ground-based clocks synchronized by Einstein synchronization.

 

[Jack_]

You seem to be cutting and pasting equations from somewhere, Jack.
Please explain how that equation relates to the scenario of our local positioning system with ground-based clocks synchronized by Einstein synchronization.

There are my equations.

Why are you wasting your time asking me this?

Can you explain the lack of orbital sagnac yes or no?

 

[Pete]

Yes, Jack, I'm doing that. Please, answer the question so we can proceed.

If we use Einstein synchronization to set up the transmitter clocks in our hypothetical local positioning system, what errors does that introduce into the transmitter clocks? What corrections will be required at the receiver to compensate?

Do you notice that the required compensation is exactly the opposite of the compensation required for Sagnac, so that the total compensation is required is zero?

 

[Jack_]

Yes, Jack, I'm doing that. Please, answer the question so we can proceed.

If we use Einstein synchronization to set up the transmitter clocks in our hypothetical local positioning system, what errors does that introduce into the transmitter clocks? What corrections will be required at the receiver to compensate?

Do you notice that the required compensation is exactly the opposite of the compensation required for Sagnac, so that the total compensation is required is zero?

This is not how GPS works.

I do not even know the purpose of your logic.

With GSP, the coords are the rotating earth frame. All clocks are synched in that frame.

The unit must perform a sagnac correction of ∆t = Rv/c² for a satellite in the east off the horizon.

In reality, it is ∆t = R cos(θ) (v/c²) where θ is the angle of the light beam to the object motion path.

In the east with a satellite, this is just ∆t = Rv/c².

So, lose your clock sync stuff, because that is not how GPS works.