Richard Dawkins Again Refuses Debate With Christian Apologist William Craig

Why bother fussing over what Dawkins thinks in the first place? He's just another notable intellectual, another stone in the quarry. Atheism is a lack of belief in deistic philosophies, it's not a belief in whatever comes out of Dawkins' mouth. There's no existential battle between Dawkins and Jesus/Thor, and I pity those who need to live their lives pretending that there ever was.

Thor is legend.. probably based of a great Norse warrior. Jesus was a man.. a legend.. but just a man. He didn't shoot thunderbolts out of his ass.. I do believe Jesus walked on water.. but no he did not literally turn water into wine like zap. If he did then God needs to show me how to do this one. And NO he did not have his disciples eat his body.. christianity does not support cannibalism. The bread was his body of work. This is what he gave to his followers food and drink.. showing them all you need is faith and good things will come your way.
 
Atheist blogger P.Z. Meyers has also refused to debate creationists anymore.

That is absolutely retarded. Im just not going to debate anyone with a different viewpoint than myself. If you have good reason not debate someone, unless that reason is because I don't want to lose then you also have better reason to debate them because the only alternative is that they are retarded, thus you will win, thus you should not be afraid. The fear of being wrong.. lulz.
 
If I recall correctly, Craig is not the one who initiates debates, other organizations ask him whether he would like to participate. Craig agreed to a UK tour and apparently he is set up to debate Dawkins' central argument in his book "The God Delusion".

The argument is hopelessly logically flawed, even the chaps at commonsenseatheism agree on that. So if Dawkins does not pitch for the debate then Craig will just advance his criticisms in front of an audience with other critics challenging him (I can't remember who atm).

I am not sure what Dawkins means with "but I don’t take on creationists". All theists are technically creationists as they see God as the creator and "sustainer" of reality. So technically Dawkins has debated creationists before. Perhaps he means "young earth creationists"?

Craig, however, is not a young earth creationist.

So, Craig is a theist and therefor a creationist.
Dawkins has debated creationists before since theists are technically creationists. He just has not debated young earth creationists.
Craig is not a young earth creationist.

I think I agree with Daniel Came that this can be interpreted as cowardice.

Dawkins said:

Dawkins said:
I always said when invited to do debates that I would be happy to debate a bishop, a cardinal, a pope, an archbishop, indeed I have done those, but I don’t take on creationists and I don’t take on people whose only claim to fame is that they are professional debaters; they’ve got to have something more than that. I’m busy.

Craig would fall into the category of "professional debaters," whom Dawkins claims not to take on.
 
In another thread, it has been shown that the something of energy/mass/substance does not have an optional existence, but has to be, thus no one such as ‘God’ had to be there to decide it and produce it. ‘Nothing’ cannot exist and so it never could or did, thus the automatic something. As something is, ‘noting’ cannot cut it in any way.

The best an only thing that something seems to be able to be are ‘sum-things’ that sum to zero overall, although limited to be ‘zero’ within the quantum uncertainty, indicating that this uncertainty is the eternal and causeless basis of all. Either way, this is not ‘God’.

‘God’ is also contra-indicated as the causeless first source because it is complex, and those kinds of things come later, not first. Simple goes to the more composite and complex, not the other way around.

It certainly appears that our universe did have a beginning 13.7 billion years ago, and since “from nothing” has been ruled out, then our universe had to have a basis from something of a greater arena.

We have only been around a short while, for evolution of the universe and life took most of those billions of years to form us. We see all of this as natural, which is why it was so mindlessly slow, and not even a sure thing, as our population once plummeted to just a few thousand, showing that no ‘God’ was at work.

As cause and effect cannot go to an infinite regress, there must be a causeless basis. No choice. This is the TOE, although not the one expected, as some huge, complicated thing was expected, not the simplest. The error of the simpleton notion was to suppose that life required Life behind it, and then an inconsistency was added by halting and not continuing the template to then have LIFE behind Life, etc.

In summary, the basis of all was eternal and causeless, it thus having no creation of itself, and thus there being no Creator. The question is both moot and mute.
 
That is absolutely retarded. Im just not going to debate anyone with a different viewpoint than myself. If you have good reason not debate someone, unless that reason is because I don't want to lose then you also have better reason to debate them because the only alternative is that they are retarded, thus you will win, thus you should not be afraid. The fear of being wrong.. lulz.

"If someone maintains that the moon is made out of green cheese, you don't argue with them; you feel sorry for them." - Bertrand Russell
 
Just for funsies I watched a debate video between William Lane Craig and Christopher Hitchens. I took some notes on Craig's debating attributes and analyzed one of his actual arguments (posted below). Most of Craig's assertions are simply incorrect; however, he has a massive logical / emotional intelligence and he uses his intellect to communicate his assertions in a way that make you naturally want to accept them. I had to go back a few times and re-listen to his arguments so I could extract his actual assertions without getting caught up in the experience of his rather fantastic presentations.

Interesting approach, CC, thank you.
 
While the theists are supposedly to be acknowledged the right to choose whom they talk to and under what circumstances, and to sometimes refuse to talk to certain people,the same does not go for non-theists.
What? You expect me to take your word for it?

You know it.
It is how you treat me and the other non-theists at this board.
 
His central argument in his book "The God Delusion".

I don't have a copy of 'The God Delusion', so I can't verify that the words that you quoted are Dawkins' or that they come from his book. I do notice that this text is found on many Christian websites.

1. One of the greatest challenges to the human intellect, over the centuries, has been to explain how the complex, improbable appearance of design in the universe arises.

It's hard to argue with that one.

2. The natural temptation is to attribute the appearance of design to actual design itself. In the case of a man-made artifact such as a watch, the designer really was an intelligent engineer. It is tempting to apply the same logic to an eye or a wing, a spider or a person.

In real life we observe that some instances of functional form are the intentional designs created by an artisan, while others (typically biological form) seem to occur naturally.

The 'design argument' is essentially an analogy, in which one treats all instances of functional form as instances of intentional design.

This analogy once had great persuasive force because of the difficulty that people experienced in understanding how the functional form could have come about naturally, without some invisible artisan having designed it in.

3. The temptation is a false one, because the designer hypothesis immediately raises the larger problem of who designed the designer. The whole problem we started out with was the problem of explaining statistical improbability. It is obviously no solution to postulate something even more improbable. We need a "crane", not a "skyhook", for only a crane can do the business of working up gradually and plausibly from simplicity to otherwise improbable complexity.

We started out with the problem of accounting for the functional structure observed in nature. Attributing it to a designer leaves us with a new and different problem, namely understanding and accounting for the designer.

Explantions produce understanding of how and why things are as they are. That means that we need to know more after we heard the explanation then we knew before.

If we are going to imagine a supernatural designer, one that operates through inexplicable miracles, then we seem to be generating mystification instead of explanation.

4. The most ingenious and powerful crane so far discovered is Darwinian evolution. Darwin and his successors have shown how living creatures, with their spectacular statistical improbability and appearance of design, have evolved by slow, gradual degrees from simple beginnings. We can safely say that the illusion of design in living creatures is just that – an illusion.

Natural selection provides an alternative naturalistic explanation of how functional form came about that doesn't depend on miraculous interventions by inexplicable invisible designers.

5. We don't yet have an equivalent "crane" for physics. Some kind of multiverse theory could in principle do for physics the same explanatory work as Darwinism does for biology. This kind of explanation is superficially less satisfying than the biological version of Darwinism, because it makes heavier demands on luck. But the anthropic principle entitles us to postulate far more luck than our limited human intuition is comfortable with.

6. We should not give up the hope of a well-grounded explanatory model arising in physics, something as powerful as Darwinism is for biology. But even in the absence of a strongly satisfying model to match the biological one, the relatively weak models we have at present are, when abetted by the anthropic principle, self-evidently better than the self-defeating God hypothesis of an intelligent designer.

The newer anthropic design arguments insist that the universe is "fine tuned" to be hospitable to human life. Of course, if human beings evolved in this universe, then we would expect humans to be adapted to the universe that they evolved in.

If physical principles were significantly different than those of our universe, and if cognitive beings evolved in those conditions, then those cognitive beings might generate similar arguments about how uniquely suited their universe is to them

7. If the argument of this chapter (book) is accepted, the factual premise of religion -- the God hypothesis – is untenable. God almost certainly does not exist. This is the main conclusion of the book so far.

That's too strong. The numbered assertions quoted above don't necessarily make "the God hypothesis" untenable in all contexts. Nor, for that matter, is "God" the "factual premise of religion".

But the points quoted above do suggest some of the reasons why the theistic design arguments aren't really convincing.
 
The medium of debate is merely one of logic - IOW for as long as the subject is supposition with an absence of any "doable" practices to back it up (such as discussion of the existence of god or even the origins of the universe and life in empirical language) , there is no "final word" in the discussion, merely a back between thesis and thesis.

people have been launching rebuttals on Dawkin's work the moment he releases it ... and he in turn has been launching rebuttals of the rebuttals and so on - such is the language of debate (although it is strange for dawkins to suggest he is not into professional debating, since its been his game for about the past decade)
 
Last edited:
Atheist are retarded. Atheism, the inability to have faith. Faith is the norm.
 
That is absolutely retarded. Im just not going to debate anyone with a different viewpoint than myself. If you have good reason not debate someone, unless that reason is because I don't want to lose then you also have better reason to debate them because the only alternative is that they are retarded, thus you will win, thus you should not be afraid. The fear of being wrong.. lulz.

So then geologists should publicly debate those who assert that the Earth is flat (or hollow, or that it sits on the back of an elephant who's standing on a turtle)? Does it not matter at all that geologists would be wasting their time?

Should we have open debates with Holocaust deniers? 9/11 conspiracy theorists?

The "winner" of a debate is not always (or even "usually") the person who has truth on his side. "Debating" is a skill, whereas "being correct" is not.

Anyone who debates Dawkins is likely to be seen as more credible after that debate than he or she was before it. What's retarded is believing that Dawkins should engage with any fame seeker who asks for it, regardless of the nature of the debate. Truth is that debates area lousy way is finding "truth." They often turn more on style than on substance. They are only good as methods of conveying truth when the debaters are honorable and seek to resent their argument fairly, without distortion or obfuscation, and who honorably attempt to not distort the message of their opponent (or, even if the debaters do not live up to those standards in all particulars every time, where they strive for them and generally come close to the mark).

William Craig is not like that. He debates to win, and is not above a lie or a distortion to do it (or, if his misstatements are unintentional, and therefore not lies per se, he falls so far short of the standard of accuracy that listeners will come away misinformed).

The problem with debates is that there is no time to stop, reflect, and verify the accuracy of what's being said. Craig relies on that limitation to fill the audience's heads with misinformation and faulty logic, then relies on that misinformation and faulty logic to declare himself the winner.

Live debates over complex issues are of questionable epistemological value to start with. They are often more about entertainment than elucidation. When William Craig turns over a new leaf and begins debating questions honorably, then it might make sense, but until then debating him would be retarded.
 
Dress it up however you like, untill he debates Craig-Lane, he will look like a coward.

I think it makes him look like he has some standards. We have plenty of infotainment from FOX, Comedy Central, CNN etc. I admire people who don't want to descend to that level.
 
Atheist are retarded. Atheism, the inability to have faith. Faith is the norm.

And yet atheists, on average, have significantly higher IQ's than fundamentalists. Faith may be the norm, but it is also apparently the domain of the less intelligent.
 
Back
Top