Religious Authority

[Pineal]

We may have different definitions of "tradition" operating here.


A traditional Turkish father may think like this:

"I am a father whose daughter has not produced a child to her husband even one year after they were married. Therefore, I must kill my daughter. Tradition dictates so, and I must follow the tradition."

This is what you mean by "valuing a tradition simply because it is a tradition"?

No, that is simply following the tradition. If question why he would follow such a tradition, if he says, because it is tradition or otherwise makes clear that one should do this simply based on that fact - even if he has other reasons, that would be what I mean.

My appreciation for tradition comes in the sense of "Many people have done this, and they seem to be happy with it, so it may be worthwhile to follow in their steps."
I do not believe in the "I must do this because tradition dictates so."

Yes, but once we notice that many people have done terrible things as traditions - and more neutrally useless things, things that did not fit some individuals or perhaps most, etc. - I am not sure why this carries weight unto itself.

Isn't this fashion but over time, rather than over space in popularity?

But there is a shift of focus here. I am not really trying to get people to decide their decision to follow a tradition is wrong - I don't even have a tradition as a focus here, and heck, I follow a number of traditions.

I am reacting to the judgment that people have likely done something wrong if they leave a tradition - also without even knowing the tradition.

I am pressing for freedom of movement and the allowance of individuals to move where they feel right, doing what they feel is right. Part of what gets aimed people for doing this, regardless of what they are moving from or toward, is that they are wrong to move against tradition. I have thought this was part of your position.

Thinking of the Turkish father, were he to somehow have an interpersonal relationship with me, I would not encourage him not to hurt her because following a tradition is bad or it is good to leave traditions. I would be likely focusing on his daughter and his feelings for her and my values, whether traditional in my world or not. (not that I have great hopes for such a discussion unless he came and asked me my thoughts and feelings, that is not the issue. But rather to show that my focus is not anti-tradition, I just do not give it value unto itself.)

 

[wynn]

No, that is simply following the tradition. If question why he would follow such a tradition, if he says, because it is tradition or otherwise makes clear that one should do this simply based on that fact - even if he has other reasons, that would be what I mean.

Like you noted earlier: a person's identity is not infinitely malleable.
If a person's identity develops by the tradition, then going against the tradition would to that person seem like going against themselves.

The fact of the matter is that it is difficult to go against a tradition, but obvious external, obvious internal and subtle internal reasons.

Yes, but once we notice that many people have done terrible things as traditions - and more neutrally useless things, things that did not fit some individuals or perhaps most, etc. - I am not sure why this carries weight unto itself.

Habits carry weight. This is simply how it is. It doesn't make habits right. But the fact is that habits carry weight, they have momentum. Whether we like it or not.
And habits are difficult to change.

I am reacting to the judgment that people have likely done something wrong if they leave a tradition - also without even knowing the tradition.

Can you copy-paste my words that lead you to conclude I was making this judgment?

I am pressing for freedom of movement and the allowance of individuals to move where they feel right, doing what they feel is right.

This is all fine and well - if only it would be so clear what it is that "I want."
People continually discover that what they want are often times other people's desires, but disguised as their own. And often enough, this becomes apparent only after they have acted on such seeming "I want."

Thinking of the Turkish father, were he to somehow have an interpersonal relationship with me, I would not encourage him not to hurt her because following a tradition is bad or it is good to leave traditions. I would be likely focusing on his daughter and his feelings for her and my values, whether traditional in my world or not. (not that I have great hopes for such a discussion unless he came and asked me my thoughts and feelings, that is not the issue. But rather to show that my focus is not anti-tradition, I just do not give it value unto itself.)

Someone like this Turkish father probably wouldn't have someone like you anywhere near him to begin, what to speak of discussing his family matters with someone like you. I mean, this is the likely reality of such a situation.

Moreover, this father is probably pressured by other people in his tribe to uphold the tradition; so the matter isn't simply between him and his daughter, the whole tribe is involved. The father, his daughter and his whole family may face severe adverse consequences if they act against the tradition. Perhaps even someone else would kill her, if the father refused (the oldest son or uncle).
People who were born and raised into a tradition have likely witnessed such killings, and they are set to expect this; they do not write off their concerns as idle because they have seen such things happen to others or know of them.