Religious Authority

Pineal

Banned
Banned
"Tradition is good, lineage important."

But then all the lineages I can find seem based on breaks in tradition/lineage.

Jesus setting up a break away from Judaism.
Muhammed used elements of Judaism and even Christianity combined with his visions.
The Buddha
He left Rajagaha and practised under two hermit teachers. After mastering the teachings of Alara Kalama (Skr. Ārāḍa Kālāma), he was asked by Kalama to succeed him. However, Gautama felt unsatisfied by the practise, and moved on to become a student of Udaka Ramaputta (Skr. Udraka Rāmaputra). With him he achieved high levels of meditative consciousness, and was again asked to succeed his teacher. But, once more, he was not satisfied, and again moved on.[29]

He then tried profound asceticism, but then moved from this, developing his own path.

Hinduism - I don't even know how to begin.

The foundation of tradition seems to be breaks from tradition.
The conservative worships a dead radical.
 
Tradition is only important if it serves a purpose. Keeping to a tradition just because it's a tradition is just as meaningless following the rules just because they're the rules. If there's no rhyme or reason to them then it's nothing more than a waste of time.
 
"Tradition is good, lineage important."

But then all the lineages I can find seem based on breaks in tradition/lineage.

Jesus setting up a break away from Judaism.
Muhammed used elements of Judaism and even Christianity combined with his visions.
The Buddha


He then tried profound asceticism, but then moved from this, developing his own path.

Hinduism - I don't even know how to begin.

The foundation of tradition seems to be breaks from tradition.
The conservative worships a dead radical.

all depends who is breaking the lineage.

If every generation you get a personality of the caliber of jesus - then fine.

If not, then it probably pays to have an element of foundation of tradition
 
I don't see any need to "worships a dead radical". I consider myself Christian but I don't worship Jesus. What I try to do is just follow his examples and sayings. Often failing but at least trying.
 
The radicals of Jesus' time were Zealots, and the people who were baptising were the Essenes, radicals of an orthodox stripe. There is some speculation that the Jesus story arose from an account of the execution of a Zealot or even an Essene. Sounds more plausible than walking on water, etc.

Yes: worshiping a dead radical. Interesting, because there is some underlying radical element of the religions you mentioned, to throw off the material world, to surrender to the supernatural in defiance of perceived reality, etc.

In defense of Buddha, Jesus and Mohammed, I would have to give them credit for what Edison called 99% perspiration, because they certainly wrestled with their peers for airtime. Of course sensationalism helps, and gullibility too.

Yes worshiping the dead radical. And dragging through history the dead annals of superstition, myth, legend, nightmares, hallucinations, and of course some mellow and curative poetry and chronicles.
 
"Tradition is good, lineage important."

But then all the lineages I can find seem based on breaks in tradition/lineage.

Jesus setting up a break away from Judaism.
Muhammed used elements of Judaism and even Christianity combined with his visions.
The Buddha


He then tried profound asceticism, but then moved from this, developing his own path.

Hinduism - I don't even know how to begin.

The foundation of tradition seems to be breaks from tradition.
The conservative worships a dead radical.

Someone new comes along to reestablish actual religious principles, which have been eroded in existing traditions.


jan.
 
"Tradition is good, lineage important."

I think that I agree with that.

But then all the lineages I can find seem based on breaks in tradition/lineage.

I think that I agree with that too. Your examples are good ones.

The foundation of tradition seems to be breaks from tradition.
The conservative worships a dead radical.

I wouldn't want to politicize it. I'm often a conservative, on many issues. (That's why Tiassa absolutely hates me.) Worshipping dead radicals has nothing to do with it.

The variable here in the religious case is typically taken to be personal authority, I guess. Jesus was supposed to be some kind of incarnation of God. Mohammed is supposed to have been chosen by God to be his prophet. The Buddha is supposed to have finally achieved enlightenment.

If we can say the same kind of thing, if we belong in the same class, then we transcend tradition too. But I certainly can't say those things about myself. I'm not in a position to be a total iconoclast, smashing supposed idols that in reality I might not even understand.

It's more complicated. I take kind of an 'existentialist' view of religion, at least for me, where I'm at right now.

There are all these traditions out there, vying for my attention in the worldwide religious marketplace. And I'm the one that has to choose a path. I'm the one that has to accept a tradition and identify teachers worth paying attention to. I'm the one who has to decide for myself if the teachers and teachings are credible and worthwhile.

I'm not able to just empty myself out, fall on my knees and say, "Jesus, take me!" Or Allah. Or Krishna. Or... something. Voices in the walls, maybe. Some religions idealize that kind of unquestioning self-surrender, but I don't, not in this lifetime. To me it looks like a dangerous step towards madness.

So for me, my own religiosity consists of a never-ending dialogue with traditions and with teachers. They are resources that may offer me things that I can't supply for myself. But not all traditions, and not all aspects of any particular tradition, are necessarily all true, healthy, effective or offer me what I need in my present situation.
 
lightgigantic --

If every generation you get a personality of the caliber of jesus - then fine.

So you wouldn't have any problems with Thomas Jefferson's break from tradition then?
 
Tradition keeps on in the past. Remember the man who claimed God's ear, and told you to abandon all religion.
 
I don't see any need to "worships a dead radical". I consider myself Christian but I don't worship Jesus. What I try to do is just follow his examples and sayings. Often failing but at least trying.
I thought being a Christian included worshipping Jesus, that the only way to God was through him.

But I don't need to push that point. If he was a radical who broke from tradition, does this cause any conflict with defending tradition because it is tradition for Christians?
 
Someone new comes along to reestablish actual religious principles, which have been eroded in existing traditions.
jan.
Was this true for Judaism? Has there been no real progession in religions as the Abrahamic religions seem to claim, from pre-monotheism to them?

Where do you find Jesus' conception of religion earlier in history? How do you know he is simply going back to the roots?
 
Strictly speaking -
What's that to you?
If tradition is good unto itself, which seems to me is part of the conservative stance, I am raising the issue of whether there is a contradiction in that they tend to worship - either literally in religion or metaphorically in things like politics - dead radicals.

Also, I think it is meaningful to wonder what would happen if Jesus arrive in the Bible Belt today, for example, and started speaking about God in ways that these people were not quite familiar with, not quite in the ways their preachers and pastors do, and also claimed to be THE route to God.

Not because I need some condemnation of the Bible Belt, but rather this issue of the normal reaction to innovation and change seems to be not quite what it is, and this affects me in many ways, not just via religions.

Essentially I have the same problem with rationalists.

How much of this interest in religiousness is driven by one's own insecurity, jealousy and victim mentality?
I don't know. It feels like I am trying to get clear on some things, not all of them conscious. I think it is fair to see if there is a contradiction between premises in this context.

EDIT: in this specific context, this thread came out of discussions with you where I encountered the judgment, it seemed, that one should, generally stay within a tradition and that those who break off are wrong per se to do so, along perhaps with the related issue of sycretism. I reacted to what I thought was a universal rule or set or rules that I do not think are right for all people. Frankly, it seems to me conversion is also often going against religious authority. It is deciding, within a tradition, that the leaders and likely the texts, are incorrect that this religion is for everyone and that problems with the religion relate to sin, resistence, ignorance, etc. I think this is also problematic. So this thread was me giving a home to the issue that came up between us and my resisting this universalizing, in this case by focusing on the fact that traditions are started by schisms.

I don't think arguing against a universalized idea is a sign of victim mentality, even if that idea has caused problems for the person arguing against that idea.

The specific quote about Conservatives comes from political contexts, though I thought it relevent here. It is a Mark Twain quote apparantly. I think it points out the kind of irony I see as a problem with universalizing traditions as right for people -unless another Jesus comes along, to add in LG's proviso.

I am resisting this universalizing of the rightness of traditions - which is even odder given that they contradict and often revile each other - and frankly I find it very odd here to have my motives questioned since you have yourself decided to go against religious authorities, without, I assume thinking that you were of a caliber of Jesus. IOW you also decided that the universalized correctness of these traditions did not apply in your case, despite what religious authorities would say.

This is not a move to starting your own religion, but the fundamantal act is of the same category. You decided that the universalizing was not correct, in at least one case. If it is not an act of fully rejecting the other religion as a whole, it is accepting schisms in the world and plurality of religions in general, movement between different religions by individuals and given this the ability and right of individuals in traditions to go against traditions.
 
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If every generation you get a personality of the caliber of jesus - then fine.

If not, then it probably pays to have an element of foundation of tradition
So, what about Martin Luther? He tried to change what he considered recent distortions of the ideas of Jesus by the Catholic Church. He was expelled for that. This lead to new traditions which many followed. Were they wrong, per se, if Martin Luther is not the caliber of Jesus? Was he wrong to try to return Catholicism to what he considered the roots, since perhaps he thought that neither he nor the Pope were of the caliber of Jesus, but then he must have thought he was interpreting the NT better than the Vatican?

Could one during the Inquisition decide that even though one is not of the caliber of Jesus, one is correct to think the tradition is messed up now?

all depends who is breaking the lineage.
But never on the lineage? If someone decided to leave Christianity and to enter your tradition, who must they consider themselves of a caliber of? When does someone have the 'right' - is that it - to decide they have the ability to evaluate the tradition they are in and either decide it has strayed from its Jesus or is incorrect that it applies to everyone?
 
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So, what about Martin Luther? He tried to change what he considered recent distortions of the ideas of Jesus by the Catholic Church. He was expelled for that. This lead to new traditions which many followed. Were they wrong, per se, if Martin Luther is not the caliber of Jesus? Was he wrong to try to return Catholicism to what he considered the roots, since perhaps he thought that neither he nor the Pope were of the caliber of Jesus, but then he must have thought he was interpreting the NT better than the Vatican?
I don't think Martin Luther is of the caliber of Jesus - but then he didn't revamp Christianity like Jesus did to Judaism - to say the least he certainly has more an element of the foundation of tradition.

You could say that it is the conditioned human tendency to subvert religious principles (usually performed in the same spirit that you present - namely "let's change things for the better") therefore an empowered personality comes from time to re-establish them

IOW much like any act you care to mention, it can be done the right way or the wrong way.
:shrug:
Could one during the Inquisition decide that even though one is not of the caliber of Jesus, one is correct to think the tradition is messed up now?
Sure one can think that - but whether one is actually capable of instigating any sort of beneficial change is another matter.
But never on the lineage? If someone decided to leave Christianity and to enter your tradition, who must they consider themselves of a caliber of?
That's a slightly different angle since you are not talking about re-defining the norms of a pre-existing lineage, but rather changing to an already existing one

When does someone have the 'right' - is that it - to decide they have the ability to evaluate the tradition they are in and either decide it has strayed from its Jesus or is incorrect that it applies to everyone?
When they can discern religious principles from religious details - otherwise they render the whole process less effective.
 
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