Religion Vs God
- Thread starter NMSquirrel
- Start date
jpappl,
You mean the main claim for you.
On a different noyte, why do say "Of course it's wrong"?
You've made a claim which, if correct, verifies your line of reasoning.
So please explain why God did not create the universe.
jan.
You mean the main claim for you.
On a different noyte, why do say "Of course it's wrong"?
You've made a claim which, if correct, verifies your line of reasoning.
So please explain why God did not create the universe.
jan.
Are you a creationist ? if not, why not ?
http://www.religioustolerance.org/ev_bibl.htm
I never said god didn't create the universe.
My reasoning is that if the bible is bunk, which it is, then what of the god of the bible ?
We can't prove there is or is not a god, so explain to me why god did create the universe ? The question is trying to lend credence to the idea of god, but there is no reason whatsoever to bring god into it. There is no evidence for god period.
Your question is attempting to place the burden of providing reason and evidence for that which I can not. Neither can you, but it is apparently your claim that god did.
So ask yourself, what evidence or what is it that justifies your belief it did ?
Why should I look for an answer that doesn't have anything to support it.
We have this massive mountain of evidence that contradicts the bible. I am not going to replace that with something that has no evidence at all.
We do not yet have some of these answers, we may not in our lifetime or ever, I am not going to make up ones to make myself feel better.
well science can prove how planets are formed so we can prove how the earth was formed.. science can prove how minerals got into the universe to create these planets ect
Science has yet, again yet to show how it all started. This is of course something we are in search of.
Jan's point is that we can't prove god did not create the universe.
At least not yet.
So with that, it leaves the door open for them to believe in the possibility. Simply ignoring the probability and allowing the mere possibility to justify the belief.
There is no interest in proving god did create the universe.
you are referring to genesis?
that was written by moses along with the first five books of the bible..
sure there is validity but my question with that book is how much should we take so literally?..should it be a point to argue about and cause division?
here again you are saying god wrote the bible..
my arguement is there is only two(maybe three) story's that actually claim 'god wrote' , the ten commandments and the story of david with the writing on the wall..
i do not believe this is an issue of extremes..IOW it is neither completly wrong or completely right..we have to read it and disscuss it to determine what was meant by it..the best answer i can give is..what does the word 'cool' mean? it can mean anything you wanted it too, to determine what it means you would have to read it in context,then discern the meaning of it..
the same is true of the bible..we take it for granted that the words used in it have the same meaning today as they did when they were written,
i don't think they could get so much wrong..i am saying there is a process..god inspired writer..writer translates inspiration into words..writer puts words on paper..reader reads words..reader translate words into his own understanding, reader communicates word to flock(for lack of a better word..)
haven't you ever played the word pass game(don't think that's the actual name..)? the one where you get a line of ppl and you whisper a phrase to the person next to you and he whispers it to the next person..and so on till it gets to the last person, the original phrase is sometimes completely different than what the last person says it is..
the same concept applies to the bible..from god to the author to the reader..
to blame god for our interpretation is not right..
this is too easy an answer for it to be true..
just because you don't understand what i am talking about, doesn't mean i don't understand what i am talking about..
just because we don't understand what god is talking about doesn't mean he doesn't..
this is my point..
there is TONS of information on god,not all of it is bunk.it takes a certain amount of discernment to sort through the gobblygook to figure out what is true and what is not..
if one person says that it is green..
another says it is white..
another says it is tall..
another says it is short..
and yet another says it is alive..
and another says it is dead..
another says it is pretty..
another says it has balls on it..
another says it has bells on it..
another says it has lights on it..
and yet another says he sees an angel on top of it..
another says there is a star on top..
what are they talking about??
are any of them wrong?
um..not quite..there are several theories out there that try to explain how planets are formed..
and another though..
i know i am not gonna qoute this right,but someone out there knows what i am trying to say..
there is a saying in the science field that says something to the effect of.
unless there is definate proof of a concept that can be reproduced,then any theory has to be considered plausible until it is proven invalid or valid..
i hope i didn't screw it up so much that noone can figure out what it is..
NM,
The problem NM is that we keep moving the bar. It was taken literally, including genesis. As science progressed and we understood more, then those wise enough said, wait a minute that can't be right. So they changed it to not being the literal word of god.
Some are confused, they claim both, it is the literal word of god but only parts of it. Does that make sense ?
Well at what point does one claim the book is not important and what point is it important. It seems you want to say the genesis story is flawed but other parts are not. Does that make sense ?
And I understand that in some cases, but the story of genesis is spelled out clearly enough to know it's nonsense when compared to what we have discovered. Again the question comes up, why so different ? How could a god inspired account be so far off the mark ?
The word game doesn't apply here to much as we can read the bible ourselves and interpret what was supposedly a god inspired account. So yes there are some words and phrases that could be misinterpreted, but I am focusing on the god created part. Because that is the emphasis of the believer that god did it, not we evolved here.
Maybe you believe in evolution and that god started the process of the universe. Which isn't a more probable scenario but at least there is no obvious flaws or falsifications that can be presented to dispute it. At least none that I can think of.
Why, when the evidence points to them making up all of the other stories. Again, if the story of genesis is wrong, which is the implication that god did it, what else is wrong ? Was it really god inspired ? if so, why all the errors ?
Even though they may have made up god like the rest of the religions, doesn't mean there is not one. Just that again, whose and what god is it now ?
Which is why we can discuss this rationally. Others will defend the religion because their god is tied to it. It's not wise to defend the indefensible.
It's important that we scrutinize our beliefs.
How do we know what is the truth about god and what is not ?
What is the information about god you speak of outside religious texts ?
The problem NM is that we keep moving the bar. It was taken literally, including genesis. As science progressed and we understood more, then those wise enough said, wait a minute that can't be right. So they changed it to not being the literal word of god.
Some are confused, they claim both, it is the literal word of god but only parts of it. Does that make sense ?
Well at what point does one claim the book is not important and what point is it important. It seems you want to say the genesis story is flawed but other parts are not. Does that make sense ?
And I understand that in some cases, but the story of genesis is spelled out clearly enough to know it's nonsense when compared to what we have discovered. Again the question comes up, why so different ? How could a god inspired account be so far off the mark ?
The word game doesn't apply here to much as we can read the bible ourselves and interpret what was supposedly a god inspired account. So yes there are some words and phrases that could be misinterpreted, but I am focusing on the god created part. Because that is the emphasis of the believer that god did it, not we evolved here.
Maybe you believe in evolution and that god started the process of the universe. Which isn't a more probable scenario but at least there is no obvious flaws or falsifications that can be presented to dispute it. At least none that I can think of.
Why, when the evidence points to them making up all of the other stories. Again, if the story of genesis is wrong, which is the implication that god did it, what else is wrong ? Was it really god inspired ? if so, why all the errors ?
Even though they may have made up god like the rest of the religions, doesn't mean there is not one. Just that again, whose and what god is it now ?
Which is why we can discuss this rationally. Others will defend the religion because their god is tied to it. It's not wise to defend the indefensible.
It's important that we scrutinize our beliefs.
How do we know what is the truth about god and what is not ?
What is the information about god you speak of outside religious texts ?
with neither genesis nor evolution being proven (yes i believe evolution has not been proven..its just a popular theory for those who do not believe in genesis)
we cannot discount one just cause we want to believe the other..
if you are looking for me to answer with a definitive this is true that aint true..i cannot..those things happened way before my time..any opinion one way or another is just that..
scrutinize the evidence..are you relying on someone else's opinion of what is evident? for that matter are you relying on someone elses opinion of the bible? how much of it have you actually read? you keep trying to say the the bible is full of lies..is that conclusion from your own study of the bible? or are you just relying on someone elses opinions of the bible?
when all is said and done..even in the science community..you have to study it for yourself..
lol..you are asking who should you believe..i keep saying study it for yourself, make up your own mind..
i think this is cause as a rule ppl tend to look for the easiest answers..when it comes to god there is no easy answer..
that applies to both sides of the argument..do not take someone elses word that it is this was or that way..
go into any christian book store, they will have tons of books about opinions about who/what god is about(of course each one says they are correct)..read as much as it is possible for you..search for the common denominators..see what it is that makes sense to you..figuring out who/what god is about is not gonna happen overnight,
IMO the ppl who scream the loudest about whether he exist or not, are afraid..too many religious ppl keep saying that if you don't do this or that you are doomed..so i think they assume if they admit that god exists then that means they are susceptible to his wrath, and they know in their own heart that they do not measure up to gods standards, so why believe in a god who has already condemed them..would you get a job at a company that you knew was going to fire you the next day? same concept..
with just a little study with the bible reveals how not true that is..yes we are sinners..(IMO just means we make mistakes, we are not perfect)
that is what jesus was for, he paid the price for us.(he took the rap and got fired, instead of us)(there is definatly more to it that this,but don't wanna get too much into the preaching..)
as far as genesis goes, (which alot of arguements about god tend to end up there )
take it for what it is worth,there is NO proof one way or another,why should we let that be an excuse not to understand god.
to me it is more important we learn what god is trying to teach us.
again have you studied the bible? is what it teaches a bad thing to learn?is it gonna kill us? do you think if you learned the bible you would turn into one of those religious nutjobs?
personally i think you would become a great teacher of the bible and of god, simply because you are not a 'do as your told' type personallity, you tend to question everything..IMO religion needs more of this type of personality..
if you are waiting to understand god..this will never happen..we only get clues to what he is about..
(FYI, i believe that (MOST)everything that the secular world teaches us has its origins in the bible.)
NM,
Evolution has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt as it has not been falsified. What has not been proven is exactly when and how life started in the first place. That is what science is continuing to pursue. You are confusing the word theory in this case and what that means with regards to evolution.
The evidence in this case and the only evidence is in science. The scientific evidence of how our world operates, it's laws etc are and have been scrutinized over and over again and will continue to be. So it's not just someone else's opinion it is the mountain of evidence and information of all of the scientific fields, which by the way contradict what is claimed in genesis.
I am not saying the bible is full of lies, I am saying that it is full of mistakes which should not be there. Some of which are not true, period. But much of it is very valuable from a human condition standpoint. No god is required to make some of the suggestions on how to live a decent life etc etc. Like you said, it was written by man, not god.
Thats not it. I am asking you that if the authors of the bible made up god just as they did so much of it, then it's not the god of the bible. What god is it that you are believing in.
But one side, those that support evolution has a mountain of evidence to back it's claim.
The other has no evidence to support it's claim.
Oh ok, but that isn't information that can prove god. Just more opinion about god.
There is proof that genesis is false. Tons of it. From a variety of fields. Which is why it's important. For someone to want to learn the truth. How can someone learn truth from a source that is flawed in what it claims from the outset.
I went to church with my wonderful catholic grandmother. Which is one, not the only reason that I know there are many wonderful theists. The bible, the koran and many other religious texts of course offer importance but they aren't science books. So the problem is when theists address the issue of where we came from, using the religious texts to do so is pseudo-science because the evidence is against their creation stories not in favor of.
Thanks and I agree we should keep questioning. Whether that is science or religion. The questions asked are as important as the answer.
Including what science has taught us ?
Evolution has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt as it has not been falsified. What has not been proven is exactly when and how life started in the first place. That is what science is continuing to pursue. You are confusing the word theory in this case and what that means with regards to evolution.
The evidence in this case and the only evidence is in science. The scientific evidence of how our world operates, it's laws etc are and have been scrutinized over and over again and will continue to be. So it's not just someone else's opinion it is the mountain of evidence and information of all of the scientific fields, which by the way contradict what is claimed in genesis.
I am not saying the bible is full of lies, I am saying that it is full of mistakes which should not be there. Some of which are not true, period. But much of it is very valuable from a human condition standpoint. No god is required to make some of the suggestions on how to live a decent life etc etc. Like you said, it was written by man, not god.
Thats not it. I am asking you that if the authors of the bible made up god just as they did so much of it, then it's not the god of the bible. What god is it that you are believing in.
But one side, those that support evolution has a mountain of evidence to back it's claim.
The other has no evidence to support it's claim.
Oh ok, but that isn't information that can prove god. Just more opinion about god.
There is proof that genesis is false. Tons of it. From a variety of fields. Which is why it's important. For someone to want to learn the truth. How can someone learn truth from a source that is flawed in what it claims from the outset.
I went to church with my wonderful catholic grandmother. Which is one, not the only reason that I know there are many wonderful theists. The bible, the koran and many other religious texts of course offer importance but they aren't science books. So the problem is when theists address the issue of where we came from, using the religious texts to do so is pseudo-science because the evidence is against their creation stories not in favor of.
Thanks and I agree we should keep questioning. Whether that is science or religion. The questions asked are as important as the answer.
Including what science has taught us ?
read up on evolution.see how many 'if' 'probably' 'possibly' 'could be' etc etc there are in there..
there are anti-evolutionist that put forth some interesting arguements against evolution..
i think this is a literal interpretation arguement..
and again there are lots of arguements from anti-evolutionists..
NM,
The theory is not falsified, it's a matter of leaving open possibilities within the theory, that is good science. They are areas that have yet to be confirmed as fact, but the overwhelming evidence not only supports it but does not falsify it.
What are these arguments. Could you link me to ones you feel are valid.
Yes, but if the creation story is not to be taken seriously or literal. Then WTF is everybody talking about. All of these believers don't believe the story ?
It's like a dog chasing his tail.
So then you believe the story of creation and Noah etc are accurate and true ?
The "god of the bible" is the Abraham god presented and portrayed in the bible. It is supposed to be the god who created everything. So opposed to your position that god is god, those that follow the bible are referring to a very specific one. Remember my line of reasoning and argument here is the flaws in the religious text. So again, if the bible isn't accurate in it's interpretation of god, creation story etc, then what god are we left with.
You seem to be sure they do. So what is it, I can then research it.
Ok.
The division and hate comes from extremists, and as you know is not limited to Theist /Atheist. The biggest division is between the theists.
The evidence only supports evolution.
My point was that I have been exposed to it and there are many good people of all faiths and no faith. That was all.
Do you agree that if I have a valid point that falsifies anothers view it should be considered and presented ?
If the bible and the belief in god is so secure and valid, it should be able to stand up to inquiry.
What science has taught us contradicts what the bible has taught us. The overwhelming creed in religion is don't question the belief.
So, there isn't anything scientific about it. Whether it birthed it or not is not relevant.
I really am trying to have a cordial conversation with you and I appreciate the discussion.
It's not my intent to make you believe as I do. It's my intent to be the devils advocate to what you may feel justifies your beliefs.
I am certainly open to questions about my beliefs and in my life try to make sure that what I am believing in is not falsified or contradicted by what we know. I want to move with the ever growing knowledge base of humanity.
The theory is not falsified, it's a matter of leaving open possibilities within the theory, that is good science. They are areas that have yet to be confirmed as fact, but the overwhelming evidence not only supports it but does not falsify it.
What are these arguments. Could you link me to ones you feel are valid.
Yes, but if the creation story is not to be taken seriously or literal. Then WTF is everybody talking about. All of these believers don't believe the story ?
It's like a dog chasing his tail.
So then you believe the story of creation and Noah etc are accurate and true ?
The "god of the bible" is the Abraham god presented and portrayed in the bible. It is supposed to be the god who created everything. So opposed to your position that god is god, those that follow the bible are referring to a very specific one. Remember my line of reasoning and argument here is the flaws in the religious text. So again, if the bible isn't accurate in it's interpretation of god, creation story etc, then what god are we left with.
You seem to be sure they do. So what is it, I can then research it.
Ok.
The division and hate comes from extremists, and as you know is not limited to Theist /Atheist. The biggest division is between the theists.
The evidence only supports evolution.
My point was that I have been exposed to it and there are many good people of all faiths and no faith. That was all.
Do you agree that if I have a valid point that falsifies anothers view it should be considered and presented ?
If the bible and the belief in god is so secure and valid, it should be able to stand up to inquiry.
What science has taught us contradicts what the bible has taught us. The overwhelming creed in religion is don't question the belief.
So, there isn't anything scientific about it. Whether it birthed it or not is not relevant.
I really am trying to have a cordial conversation with you and I appreciate the discussion.
It's not my intent to make you believe as I do. It's my intent to be the devils advocate to what you may feel justifies your beliefs.
I am certainly open to questions about my beliefs and in my life try to make sure that what I am believing in is not falsified or contradicted by what we know. I want to move with the ever growing knowledge base of humanity.
here is where my own ignorance will show..although i have heard enough opinions to surmise there is evidence of creationism, i have not studied it..
but i did find some links that associate science with creationism i cannot say whether i feel they are valid or not..
http://www.icr.org/index.php?module=articles&action=view&ID=168
http://atheism.about.com/od/creationismcreationists/a/scientific.htm
and a book site that has lots of books on the subject..
http://www.amazon.com/Scientific-Creationism-Henry-M-Morris/dp/0890510032
i just searched for scientific creationism
i think noah is less contestable than the creation story..
not saying i have all the answers..just saying there is more to it than we could ever understand..
the only way i can answer that is with the what if game..
what if as a species we were to prove that god didn't exist..what if all evidence against god were validated..what if we died and found out there was a god...
i do not claim complete knowledge of what god is about..
just cause a person can out argue me..will not make me disbelieve in god..
am i?
test all things..blah blah blah..sorry stargate universe is on..be back later..
sorry..im back
i like to entertain the thought that the eureka moments by scientists were from god..
of course it can be argued that it is not..but that doesn't make it not so..
guess we will never know for sure until we die..until then..i like to believe it is better to be safe than sorry..
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jpappl,
No, to the first part.
What is the significance of the second part?
Well it didn't come across like that.
Even if the bible is, as you say, "bunk" (whatever that means), it doesn't
mean god didn't create the universe.
People do not believe in God because they want to know how
the universe was created.
Nobody was around when the universe was created.
It doesn't matter how the universe was created.
Evidence for God is not contingent upon whether or not he created
the universe, although it's obvious that it is the result of intelligence, by some, and not so, by others.
I don't care whether God created the universe or not. It just seems
obvious that it was created. If science can give evidence that it just
poofed into existence without a cause, then I will be open to listen.
Scientifically or philosophically?
The thing is, you wouldn't know "support" if it punched you in the face.
Because you, or your atheist cult, or science, do not know everything.
So you choose to believe there is no support, and seek to destroy any dialogue which leads to positive reasoning of God's existence.
You mean that contradicts claims of the bible.
Do you evidence that contradicts the Bhagavad Gita?
Well you can start by examining your claim of no evidence for God.
Otherwise I'm going to have to call you a liar.
jan.
No, to the first part.
What is the significance of the second part?
Well it didn't come across like that.
Even if the bible is, as you say, "bunk" (whatever that means), it doesn't
mean god didn't create the universe.
People do not believe in God because they want to know how
the universe was created.
Nobody was around when the universe was created.
It doesn't matter how the universe was created.
Evidence for God is not contingent upon whether or not he created
the universe, although it's obvious that it is the result of intelligence, by some, and not so, by others.
I don't care whether God created the universe or not. It just seems
obvious that it was created. If science can give evidence that it just
poofed into existence without a cause, then I will be open to listen.
Scientifically or philosophically?
The thing is, you wouldn't know "support" if it punched you in the face.
Because you, or your atheist cult, or science, do not know everything.
So you choose to believe there is no support, and seek to destroy any dialogue which leads to positive reasoning of God's existence.
You mean that contradicts claims of the bible.
Do you evidence that contradicts the Bhagavad Gita?
Well you can start by examining your claim of no evidence for God.
Otherwise I'm going to have to call you a liar.
jan.
No, you will rather sulk and fret and be miserable!
Oh, and watch a lot of tv and indulge in those scientific theories that get debunked every couple of years ...
yeah, by murdering them, and taking all their wealth too.
yep. but the vatican is the most intense representation of organized religion there is imo. so, i consider it representative. i mean, look that the republican party here in the states...
LOL, yep you got me.
NM,
I will check them out.
So are you suggesting that the Noah's ark story is real ?
Agreed.
Fair enough.
That's not a good reason to believe because if that is the only reason then it's not really belief is it ?
But I realize that for you it's more, not implying that towards you. But, in general, I don't get that way of thinking.
I will check them out.
So are you suggesting that the Noah's ark story is real ?
Agreed.
Fair enough.
That's not a good reason to believe because if that is the only reason then it's not really belief is it ?
But I realize that for you it's more, not implying that towards you. But, in general, I don't get that way of thinking.
Jan,
Because you asked me what I mean't by "of course it's wrong" the bible that is. So I asked, are you a creationist ? If you are not, then you are admitting that it's wrong.
If you said yes it would make sense because you yourself believe the story of creation in the bible.
If no, then how due you reconcile the difference.
By the way I am glad the first part was no of course. Otherwise we wouldn't have much to say to each other.
Maybe it didn't need to come out. If someone asked me I would have said that I don't know. That would include the possibility that there is/was a god and could have done it.
Correct, but whats important here is that if the bible is just a big story, including the original idea of god, then although there still may be a god but it didn't truly make itself known.
Agreed.
It was created or happened obviously, that is all we know so far, hopefully we will get more answers.
The key is as you said, stay open to the new information.
I willing to listen to either one or both.
I have previously stated I would.
That's just it Jan, it's all words with nothing to back it up, in fact the real problem for most reasonable people is the evidence contradicts it.
So I am choosing to follow the evidence.
What other than it exists ?
What does that have to do with my statement, you lost me there.
Are you calling the Bhagavad Gita evidence for god ?
Because you asked me what I mean't by "of course it's wrong" the bible that is. So I asked, are you a creationist ? If you are not, then you are admitting that it's wrong.
If you said yes it would make sense because you yourself believe the story of creation in the bible.
If no, then how due you reconcile the difference.
By the way I am glad the first part was no of course. Otherwise we wouldn't have much to say to each other.
Maybe it didn't need to come out. If someone asked me I would have said that I don't know. That would include the possibility that there is/was a god and could have done it.
Correct, but whats important here is that if the bible is just a big story, including the original idea of god, then although there still may be a god but it didn't truly make itself known.
Agreed.
It was created or happened obviously, that is all we know so far, hopefully we will get more answers.
The key is as you said, stay open to the new information.
I willing to listen to either one or both.
I have previously stated I would.
That's just it Jan, it's all words with nothing to back it up, in fact the real problem for most reasonable people is the evidence contradicts it.
So I am choosing to follow the evidence.
What other than it exists ?
What does that have to do with my statement, you lost me there.
Are you calling the Bhagavad Gita evidence for god ?
of all the stories in the bible this one has the most 'proof'(i use that term loosely) every culture has its flood stories and biologists agree that there was a major flood in our history,granted there are parts of that story i find hard to believe..(really..ALL animals?..what about genetic diversity?) and i find it hard to believe that there were no rainbows before that..but for the most part i can believe it..
there is definatly more to my belief than i could ever communicate..like i said in the other thread..
my belief is not man made..there have been situations in my life where some would call circumstantial or coincidence..but there have been too many coincidences to believe that they were random..
most of these were in the form of knowledge and teaching me specific ideas or concepts..
IE..wake up in the morning with a question or thought line...go through my routine and overhear someone talking about the same thoughtline or concept..listen to the radio and hear some one talking about the same thing...go to church and hear the pastor talking about the same thing..
it is there that i see god..way to random to be coincidence..
god is what you make him..no more..no less..