Why do people believe that being moral is somehow something that involves sacrifice?
Religion is stupid
- Thread starter Mr. Hamtastic
- Start date
Why do people believe that being moral is somehow something that involves sacrifice?
Because I don't base my morals on belief. I base them on what I see with my eyes. I see people suffering, and I allieviate that suffering. I see people in need of help, and I help them. I know people live better lives being treated with kindness and compassion. I wouldn't swap my children with others because I love them and have grown attached to them, but I would take on anyone elses children if they asked and I had means.Liebling,
How is it that you moral codes do not consist of belief or dogma?
You wouldn't swap your children with others children because........?
And you wouldn't advise poeple who sort your advice to do so because.....?
jan.
Bottom line is that you and I will continue to have this discussion. You are not the typical religious person, just as I am not the typical atheist and I think we understand each other in a way. I know that you will always apply your subjectivity as I will apply mine subjectively and we could dance all night...
I know where you are coming from, and I respect that. I don't have a problem with God, or anyone's belief in a God or Gods, it's what religion does to people that I object to. If you remember, I have a healthy respect for anyone who lives outside the boundries of the traditional religions. Because they don't apply the dogmas and inconsistancies from those religions in how they treat others. My husband is agnostic and believes there is probably a God or Gods, and he lives his life according to that idea and I have no issue whatsoever with him. Likewise my children, one believes there is a divine force, one does not. I don't push them either way, I just try to get them to understand that religion will certainly warp that purity of belief one way or another. That man uses religion and holy texts to gain power, retain power, or control the masses and nothing more. There is nothing divine in religion itself, no matter how many men write or assert that it is.
Atheism is not derived from theism.
Atheism is a lack of belief or knowledge. You are subjectively twisting words because of your theism, but it doesn't make it true no matter how many times you assert it. I do not have to know theism to be an atheist, I can have a lack of belief or knowledge without knowing theism.
So babies are born without a notion of God and without belief. That's exactly what I understand as well. It's not abstract, it's quite clear. The subjective part is that you believe babies are divinely created and I do not. Simple as that really.
No arguement for what, S.A.M.?
My arguement is that religion itself is stupid, and it is. It divides. It causes wars. It allows men to control you. It feeds fear. It allows shame. It draws lines in the sand and dares you to cross them. It sets up classes of people within societies. It teaches hypocritical ideas of right and wrong. It is the single most destructive force in society to date.
I never tried to argue whether or not God exists. I never try to argue whether or not God exists. It's futile to do so and wastes both our time.
My arguement is that religion itself is stupid, and it is. It divides. It causes wars. It allows men to control you. It feeds fear. It allows shame. It draws lines in the sand and dares you to cross them. It sets up classes of people within societies. It teaches hypocritical ideas of right and wrong. It is the single most destructive force in society to date.
I never tried to argue whether or not God exists. I never try to argue whether or not God exists. It's futile to do so and wastes both our time.
Atheism is a lack of belief in gods. Period.
There are those that assert that one or more gods do not exist and that they are sure these particular gods are non-existent, but these are special designations of atheism -a subset of the greater definition.
Those afflicted with religious superstition will constantly and consistently make alternative claims about atheism, that it is a belief too (which is a tacit acknowledgment that the theistic claims are unreasoned), but these are simply the red herring and strawman arguments of the deluded who don't want to be alone in their delusion. Its easier for them to knock down the objections of atheism toward theism if you can dishonestly recreate their arguments into something more to your liking.
Sorry. It doesn't work that way.
Atheism is without gods. Period. As a label it exists only because of the massive majority of humans deluded by religious superstitions that include gods need a way to define those that decline to be afflicted by superstitions that include the positive assertion that gods exist -gods which are apparently absent to the universe except in the minds of their believers. Gods which number in the thousands since humanity has recorded them, in diverse and, very often, with contradictory qualities.
At birth, not a single person has a belief in gods. It has not been demonstrated, nor should it be expected to be demonstrated. God belief is a cultural concept and construct. If this premise is true, then we would expect to see that, historically, people by and large accept the gods of their culture. And we do.
Atheism is the lack of god belief.
Theism is the assertion that one or more gods exist.
There are those that assert that one or more gods do not exist and that they are sure these particular gods are non-existent, but these are special designations of atheism -a subset of the greater definition.
Those afflicted with religious superstition will constantly and consistently make alternative claims about atheism, that it is a belief too (which is a tacit acknowledgment that the theistic claims are unreasoned), but these are simply the red herring and strawman arguments of the deluded who don't want to be alone in their delusion. Its easier for them to knock down the objections of atheism toward theism if you can dishonestly recreate their arguments into something more to your liking.
Sorry. It doesn't work that way.
Atheism is without gods. Period. As a label it exists only because of the massive majority of humans deluded by religious superstitions that include gods need a way to define those that decline to be afflicted by superstitions that include the positive assertion that gods exist -gods which are apparently absent to the universe except in the minds of their believers. Gods which number in the thousands since humanity has recorded them, in diverse and, very often, with contradictory qualities.
At birth, not a single person has a belief in gods. It has not been demonstrated, nor should it be expected to be demonstrated. God belief is a cultural concept and construct. If this premise is true, then we would expect to see that, historically, people by and large accept the gods of their culture. And we do.
Atheism is the lack of god belief.
Theism is the assertion that one or more gods exist.
Can't have what both ways?
You are making zero sense.
This thread is about religion, not about theism vs. atheism. I think you might be confused.
Ah so you accept without demonstration that children have no belief in Gods and ascribe it to lack of knowledge?
Rather untidy for your premise, isn't it?
Well according to Islam all children are born in fitra i.e. with an inclination to belief in God and I accept that without demonstration, too.
And all those who are propounding their lack of knowledge and belief should try and make a similar thesis on my neighbors cooking.
Not at all. I seldom venture opinions where I lack belief or knowledge, since there is no basis for dialogue.
Religion is stupid, yes.
Worship your respective god and abolish religion. I don't think Jesus Christ was a fan of religion. He kept modifying the old testament rules and pointing to himself as the way to heaven. It was never written that Jesus said, "Read the scriptures to get to heaven." Never says go to church either. Never says don't drink (Paul endorses it). There are many religioius dogmas and traditions that are based off of teachings in the Bible that Jesus did not endorse. Some, he actually broke laws and went against scriptural teachings, like when the disciples picked wheat on the Sabbath.
But still people hold on to their scripture and miss the point of worshipping their god, which has nothing to do with anyone other than yourself...it also has nothing to do with what someone else says, or what the your holy book says. If god is real, then start talking to him in your words and actions, not some fallable book that can be ripped apart and pieced back together with rhetoric scissors and tape.
The danger of religion is you can get so caught up in making it to heaven yourself, you forget about others and therefore you sin and not know it. If you are always focused on your own actions you are no good to anyone else. I'm not saying judge other people, but just be there for other people and understand them regardless of their personal belief.
Regardless of the existence of god, to hell with religion.
Worship your respective god and abolish religion. I don't think Jesus Christ was a fan of religion. He kept modifying the old testament rules and pointing to himself as the way to heaven. It was never written that Jesus said, "Read the scriptures to get to heaven." Never says go to church either. Never says don't drink (Paul endorses it). There are many religioius dogmas and traditions that are based off of teachings in the Bible that Jesus did not endorse. Some, he actually broke laws and went against scriptural teachings, like when the disciples picked wheat on the Sabbath.
But still people hold on to their scripture and miss the point of worshipping their god, which has nothing to do with anyone other than yourself...it also has nothing to do with what someone else says, or what the your holy book says. If god is real, then start talking to him in your words and actions, not some fallable book that can be ripped apart and pieced back together with rhetoric scissors and tape.
The danger of religion is you can get so caught up in making it to heaven yourself, you forget about others and therefore you sin and not know it. If you are always focused on your own actions you are no good to anyone else. I'm not saying judge other people, but just be there for other people and understand them regardless of their personal belief.
Regardless of the existence of god, to hell with religion.
According to Islam... blah, blah, blah. This is an argument from authority.
According to common sense, a baby has no belief in gods because she isn't yet indoctrinated in these beliefs. Of course god belief is a matter of knowledge. Why wouldn't it be?
So is a Santa Clause belief, an Easter Bunny belief and a belief in the Tooth Fairy. Children have knowledge of these beings from the indoctrination they receive from their culture. They are no more born with belief in a Tooth Fairy than they are a god.
Until you show empirical evidence that shows a belief in gods at birth, you really have no argument.
Atheism is simply a lack of belief in gods. Gods are presented to people by their cultures. Therefore, new born babies are atheists.
According to common sense, a baby has no belief in gods because she isn't yet indoctrinated in these beliefs. Of course god belief is a matter of knowledge. Why wouldn't it be?
So is a Santa Clause belief, an Easter Bunny belief and a belief in the Tooth Fairy. Children have knowledge of these beings from the indoctrination they receive from their culture. They are no more born with belief in a Tooth Fairy than they are a god.
Until you show empirical evidence that shows a belief in gods at birth, you really have no argument.
Atheism is simply a lack of belief in gods. Gods are presented to people by their cultures. Therefore, new born babies are atheists.
S.A.M.
Okay, one more time for clarity.
The thread title is, "Religion is Stupid." not "Theism is stupid." or "God is Stupid." or even "Belief is Stupid."
I actually have a lot of knowledge on religion and it's affects on society. It's you who can't seem to stay on topic and keep derailing and misunderstanding the thread.
Okay, one more time for clarity.
The thread title is, "Religion is Stupid." not "Theism is stupid." or "God is Stupid." or even "Belief is Stupid."
I actually have a lot of knowledge on religion and it's affects on society. It's you who can't seem to stay on topic and keep derailing and misunderstanding the thread.
Atheism is a lack of belief in ...what?
Without gods, there is no atheism. Until a baby knows what is God he or she is not atheist
S.A.M... please stop trying to derail the thread over and over. If you want to start another theism vs atheism thread, please do it in another thread. We are attempting to discuss religion but you keep trying to derail it. It's very disruptive.
Enmos
Valued Senior Member
Without the notion of gods everyone is an atheist. You're stuck on how the word looks; a-theist.
Children are sponges, they believe everything. They even believe in Santa Claus too. So, i'm not sure we can call them atheist or theist, because they believe everything is possible. Give me any kid 2-8, tell the parent to tell the child to listen to me and I am an authority on the subject, and I'll turn them into a theist or atheist in a year or less. The younger the easier.
On a side note, Religion is about pride, thinking you have arrived into enlightenment. Yes religion is in fact stupid and it is about power and money.
I agree with part of what you say. A concept is a symbol. Children can be taught any symbol from birth but at some point, they will arrive at their own conclusions, redefining the symbol in terms of empiricism or belief, based on knowledge. Theism is a symbol, as is atheism and the acceptance of one or the other is irrelevant to the child until he comprehends what they signify.
Religion is collective symbolism which surrounds theism. Some atheists also define themselves as religious, but being of eastern background, its a proposition that I find nonpluses me.
This truly is getting off-topic, but I'll answer since its likely to be googled by someone in the future.
Atheism describes without gods. As a label, it exists only after the assertion by others that god(s) exist(s) (theists).
If there were no majority asserting that god(s) exist(s), there would be no need to refer to those that do not accept this assertion. If belief in unicorns became a majority belief, I would probably consider myself a a-unicornist. Belief in ghosts is widespread, and if aghostist where as easy to say as atheist, I'd likely use it. As it is, I happily refer to myself as a non-believer in ghosts. This doesn't imply that ghosts must first exist, nor does it imply that I was born with a belief in ghosts to begin with.
The word atheist is simply a word. A label. The meaning can be whatever you wish it to be. You can define it however you like. Those who self-define as atheists, however, utilize the definition "a lack of belief in god(s)."
New born babies are non-believers in gods. They lack a belief in gods among many, many other things. They are atheists.
I agree, that without the term "theist" the term "atheist" would not exist. There would be no need for it. Without believers in gods, we would not need to refer to those that lack belief in gods. There may be a civilization on another planet in another galaxy that has a belief in something that neither of us have ever conceived of. Neither of us was born with a belief in whatever this concept is, but this same civilization may have a label for those who are non-believers. We must, out of necessity, fall under that label even though we do not know what it is or what it translates to.
Well, obviously.
Lack of belief is not the same thing as lack of knowledge. I know all about your religion, and its cousins, and this is a big part of why I don't believe in them.