Religion is stupid
- Thread starter Mr. Hamtastic
- Start date
Weird. I was setting up the fact that religion is not faith is not religion, and here we are. How does this happen?
More to the idea that as personal belief systems the various faiths aren't "bad". The religions that use those faiths against the faithful to gain power over them are "bad". Take Islam. I'm pretty sure that the mullahs or whatever as well as the ayatollahs and whatnot are happily using people's faith and their desire to please their deity against them just as much as the local christian reverend demanding "sacrificial giving" and telling people how to vote is.
I call this abuse of power a breakdown in religion.
More to the idea that as personal belief systems the various faiths aren't "bad". The religions that use those faiths against the faithful to gain power over them are "bad". Take Islam. I'm pretty sure that the mullahs or whatever as well as the ayatollahs and whatnot are happily using people's faith and their desire to please their deity against them just as much as the local christian reverend demanding "sacrificial giving" and telling people how to vote is.
I call this abuse of power a breakdown in religion.
Heh. I don't think this is true at all. First, let me say that I don't make a habit of quoting the Bible, because you can justify pretty much anything you want in so doing. And I will respond from a Christian perspective, because that is the paradigm with which I am most familiar. In the Bible, Paul says
Paul also makes the point, somewhere else, that all good things come from God (maybe it's this verse, in another translation). This includes morality. So, if you believe Paul (and his validity as a paragon of early Christianity can be legitimately questioned, to be sure), and you believe that his words have some broader applicability (they were written to a specific set of people, during a specific time) then your Secular Humanism is a gift from God, as well, whether you like it or not
The implication is that God has given man gifts, just as a parent gives a child a gift. Surely, the parent expects that that gift will be used in a specific way, but it is up to the child to use that gift as he sees fit. Likewise with humans, God has given us intellect and a conscious, and a desire for some moral code. And surely, God has to be pleased that we aren't raping and killing each other en masse, even if we take ``under God'' out of the Pledge. Half of being a Christian is to ``love your brother, as you love yourself''. Does that require going to church every Sunday?
This can be paired with the message of Jesus to his disciples to be ``in this world, but not of this world''. So clearly there is a Biblical president for a separation of church and state---this is the environment in which the early Christianity evolved.
I should be fair, as the Bible is notoriously contradictory, and you could point to passages in the Old Testament (namely the entire biblical history if Israel) where the authors make it pretty clear that only nations that are moral, in the eyes of God, are worthy to live. (For example, read about the violent shit that the Hebrews did to the Canaanites. God orders them to kill man, woman, child and livestock by ``the edge of the sword''. Not the point, but the edge---that means HACK them to pieces!)
But either way, I am convinced that your statement is wrong, even in the context of my (slightly) Christian world-view. If Christians can't learn to live in a secular world, then they are missing the point of the religion, in my opinion.
As with all things, this seems to boil down to semantics. Perhaps we should frame this discussion with a good definition of ``religion''.
Actually, in Islam, the problem is reversed. Too many uneducated people [in religion that is] allowing mullahs to dictate to them. Mullahs have no standing in Islam at all.
Lets take Norway as an example, just for fun. Here are the statistics of Norway, in particular the health and society page;
http://www.ssb.no/english/yearbook/emne03.html
Nearly all of those statistics are lower and more healthy than any other country on the planet. Norway has a 32% atheist/agnostic population (from here and other sites). All of their governments are socialist and NOT religion based. Doesn't look to me like their society is failing at all.
http://www.ssb.no/english/yearbook/emne03.html
Nearly all of those statistics are lower and more healthy than any other country on the planet. Norway has a 32% atheist/agnostic population (from here and other sites). All of their governments are socialist and NOT religion based. Doesn't look to me like their society is failing at all.
Good for them. They are still a largely theist society with an increasing religious immigrant population. And they give extraordinary incetives to maintain a higher birth rate.
strawman arguments seem to be a part of Sam's modus operandi
That's correct. But you have too many arrogant theists from a variety of religions who try to force their religion on people or ridicule and/or kill them if they don't believe the same thing. Fuck that noise.
Even abusive parents are nice to their children once in awhile.
Concerning the bold...allow me to introduce you to countries such as Sudan, Darfur, Somalia....need I go on?
Hypothetically speaking 'we are god's children and he is our father' correct?
Well, half of being a parent is ensuring your children behave and don't kill each other. God may not have started all the wars in the world, but if he exists, he sat back on his ass and allowed all of it to happen. AFAIC, allowing something to happen is just as bad as causing it yourself.
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But all of that presupposes that God exists. Which an atheist doesn't believe. And each religion has a differing moral code handed down to them by their God.
Are you saying that all moral code, personal or religious is divine? That's proving my point that people with religious beliefs cannot fathom a world in which the scenario does not exist.
If a God or Gods did not create me, and I grew up not knowing a God or Gods or religion, could I not form my own moral code? Would it be possible? That's what I was getting at. People who come from an indoctrinated background cannot fathom a structure without some God or Gods influence. It simply isn't possible.
Yeah, I mention that on the first page, but like I said, I can get farther arguing with my brick fireplace wall than I will with Sam.
I know right? Honestly, you don't need to believe in any deity to have morals.
Let's take some of the ten commandments shall we?
-thou shalt not kill
-thou shalt not steal
-thou shalt not commit adultery
-thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife
Those don't need to be marketed under some divine theistic b/s. Those are common sense. Even most all (moralistic) agnostics and athiests would agree with every word of those commandments...w/o the belief in any deity.
It's kinda like those special forces/spies/assassins. They go through extensive, rigorous training. Then when they are done with that kind of work and go back to normal work, it's really, really hard to 'unlearn' that stuff. A good example is that movie The Hunted with Tommy Lee Jones and Benicio del Toro.
Even now with me being agnostic, I still have hypothetical thoughts of what if god does exist. I was raised baptist and all of this stuff/beliefs have been dying hard.
shalt not kill
Unless it is in self defense, war or accidentally.
-thou shalt not steal
Unless you are starving and don't have any money and want to feed yourself.
-thou shalt not commit adultery
Only when you think you can get away with it.
-thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife
If she is willing then why not?
Unless it is in self defense, war or accidentally.
-thou shalt not steal
Unless you are starving and don't have any money and want to feed yourself.
-thou shalt not commit adultery
Only when you think you can get away with it.
-thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife
If she is willing then why not?
Because I said it's common fuckin sense; something that you seem to have no earthy clue about.
:shrug:
That is completely unsupported. Soviet Russia? Communist China? Vietnam?
That isn't even a distant contradiction. How is having people free to decide their own religion a contradiction with the idea that people should be free to have religion? Do you mean people should be "free" to choose the state religion?
Well i am not an Atheist and consider myself to be Agnostic, if i had to choose something , which i cant remember having to do
Obviously you wouldnt want those things to happen to you. By the same token we cannot say that religious people dont do those things.
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Because I said it's common fuckin sense; something that you seem to have no earthy clue about.
Common sense? So any society that kills, steals and has loose morals lacks common sense?
Because doing harm to others is wrong. And doing things to others that makes their life burden easier is right. Because we are all in the human condition together, and should not harm each other. Why you ask? Because making someone have a heavy burden just to lighten our burden is wrong. All I can understand is what I affect. As a child I learn this very early, I do things to make my parents burden lighter or heavier. I cry to make others understand they were wrong and it hurt me. I smile to show others that what they have done helps me. It's built into our genetic code to approve or disapprove with one another and set our own moral code from the time we are babies. No divine intervention needed, unless of course you believe we are divinely created... and that just further proves the point that people who believe cannot fathom a life without belief of a God or Gods.
If you are asking why we have a moral code.. it's very simple. Because we understand suffering, and wish to avoid it. We understand that others do not like to suffer either. We do our best to avoid that suffering out of empathy for one another and because we all share the same air. Still no divine intervention needed.
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Common sense? So any society that kills, steals and has loose morals lacks common sense?
Any system of ethics are grounded in reason/philosophy. So, yes if you lack reason, you lack ethics. A person who breaks a law, has not completely thought it through, or their mental condition is not in a state to make a fair judgement of the consequences. Injustice is the symptom of ignorance, competence in critical thinking, or a mental condition.
The only case where one has common sense, but yet still chooses to steal, then they're in some abnormal psychotic state caused by the environment or other stress. The list of these stressors is lengthy that makes a person with common sense use common sense to be unethical and break a law.