I think the society breaks down first, from war, environmental, economic, or disease reasons, after which people start to question the power and omnipotence of their deities.
Religion is stupid
- Thread starter Mr. Hamtastic
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I think the society breaks down first, from war, environmental, economic, or disease reasons, after which people start to question the power and omnipotence of their deities.
It simply does not occur to you, the religious person, that it might be caused BY religion and not the lack of religion? Religion has always be a devisive and contentious issue between neighbors and friends. It's caused wars, and a seperation of entire classes of people. The religions could have divided those societies BECAUSE of religion and it took a new, united religion to bind it back together for a time. There is still no evidence that less people were believers in religion at the time of those societal breakdowns, only that society was degraded which may or may not have anything to do with religion. And it may be because of religion as much as it could be because of a lack of religion. Look at some of the conflict in the world today, almost all of it is religion based conflict.
And if we take a further look at some of the less religious countries, (the ones with the highest percentages of atheism) they are amoung the best places to live for quality of life. Doesn't sound at all like a breakdown to me.
Either that or you totally forgot who you were talking to. Haha.
Lieb, I've stopped trying to argue with theists. I can get farther trying to argue with my red brick fireplace wall than I do with theists. They are the most closed minded people on the planet.
Have you ever tried to convince a theist that literally believes the earth is only 6,000 years old? It's kinda like trying to convince Baghdad Bob that the allied forces are indeed in Baghdad.
Then countries where religion is banned and science touted as the better alternative should be your choice of residence.
Are they?
Yeah I noticed. I also noticed that the less religious countries are breaking down in terms of social institutions. So either they will become more religious or they will be replaced.
Well, no. But I can teach them to be tolerant by providing them with a differing opinion supported by facts and let them decide where they want to go with it. I'm not trying to change anyones mind, just showing that there is another perspective that works.
You can't really argue with most religious people, and doing so is exactly what you describe. But getting them to gently consider that there are other sides to each story is possible.
Bottom line for religion is there is no proof of God and there is no proof of a non-existence of God. So in a lack of evidence either way, you have to attempt to get to a middle ground of possibility. If you try to win them over, you will lose every time. Sometimes, understanding is more important than being triumphant.
You can't really argue with most religious people, and doing so is exactly what you describe. But getting them to gently consider that there are other sides to each story is possible.
Bottom line for religion is there is no proof of God and there is no proof of a non-existence of God. So in a lack of evidence either way, you have to attempt to get to a middle ground of possibility. If you try to win them over, you will lose every time. Sometimes, understanding is more important than being triumphant.
Or a revival, its hard to predict which way it goes. What do you think?
I haven't spoken to him lately, have you?
What countries have banned religion? I wouldn't want to live in a country that bans religion. While I think theists are delusional, they should still be free to practice/believe what they want (as long as they don't try to force it on anyone else who doesn't believe their crap).
Can you either cite examples/references or stop posting speculations please?
Yes, a socialist country with a lack of religious interference would be my preference. A language barrier and lack of a job is what keeps me from moving, but it's been considered in my household many times.
S.A.M. said:
How exactly are they breaking down? Please give evidence where this is happening. Does going against your religious text, make you think that their society is breaking down or are there statistics to prove it? From all statistics I've seen they have a lower birth rate, a lower crime rate, less people in prisons, less divorce, a better economy, socialized health care and mental health care, lower unemployment rates, less incidents of single parent families. Even happier people with a better quality of life. Hmm... I don't see a breakdown.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheism
I already posted a link to the relevant discussion
Breakdown of marriage, family, increased divorce, social alienation, high depression, low birth rates etc.
My impression is that Islam is gaining converts at present, for various reasons.
In my own country, I'm seeing what I regard as encouraging signs of a more liberal and moderate brand of Islam developing, and that may well prove to be more attractive to people than the hard-line Islam we hear so much about.
It sounds to me, though, that you would regard the "moderation" of Islam to be a sign of decay of the religion, as opposed to a maturing of it.
The Prophet? No. I believe he is dead. Isn't he? But didn't he get somebody to write down rules for his followers before he died, in some book or other?
Then you need to look up the two principles of Islam, jihad and ijtihad.
He expressly forbade it. Ironically we know this because it was written down
"Do not write down anything from me except the Quran." [Ahmed, Vol. 1, Page 171, and Sahih Muslim].
But there is no evidence of that in the current world. Current societies that have a decresed religious activity among their general populous are happier, have less divorce, better health care, stronger families with two parents, more civilty, less crime. Yes, a lower birth rate, but maybe because they are more socially responsible and do not want to over compensate? A lower birth rate does not lead to social decline. Only more resources for the population as a whole.
And there was no evidence in the other thread that it was a lack of religion that caused the social decline, only that there was a social decline and at the end of it, a new religion was formed. Is it possible that the problem was the differing religions and NOT a lack of religion?
That assumes that less diversity is more unifying and David Duke et al might have a point after all. Is that what you believe?
I have yet to see to an atheist society that has survived, which is the basis of deciding whether it works or not.
No. And not all Muslims have the same prayer, the same number of prayer or even the same method of prayer.
But you understand that it's a strawman, right? That just because you haven't seen it, doesn't mean that it wouldn't work.
And no, I don't think that segregation/seperation is the answer at all, it's diversity that makes this world interesting. But I do think that religion has no place in a governing body at all. That people should be free to be religious or not religious and that no one group of people has the right to oppress or harm one another on the basis of religion or lack of religion. That religion should be a personal choice that should NEVER infringe on anyone elses rights. But, that's not the case. Religion istelf has become the problem of who has the highest moral ground and has made people fear and be ashamed because of the people who govern. That should never be the case. I am not saying that religion should be abolished, but that as a whole and in a mob mentality it's lead to widespread destruction of people and societies. Surely I don't have to point out all the places in history where religion has been the rallying cry of wartorn nations wiping out entire groups of people.
Religion should be between you and your God alone, and never be used as a weapon against another person in any way at all.