Religion: Ironically the root of all evil?

Do not dis my theory, because I'm not dissing yours.

Every human has a religion, even atheists, who in the long run believe in themselves. And is that not a religion?

I said atheism is a religion! Atheism isn't bad. Atheism is when your not suppose to believe in any higher beings or what not. They believe in themselves and they believe they control themselves instead of higher beings controlling them. Not bad, but its believing in something and its still a religion. And Gods may not exist to you, but they exist to me. We create what we believe in here, buddy!

How many people claim to do things in the name of God or gods. Its not really about God, its their excuse. Its about winning to me and you lie to yourself when you say that isn't true. It is about the power, although it is claimed to be over something else.

Rational person? Is there such thing?

So, what, your telling you have no pride for your country? When they go to war, you don't want them to win? You may not be the cause of the war, or you may not even fight in it, but you still cheer it on. If you were running for something, wouldn't you try everything possible to win? See, that's clamouring for power. People who don't clamour for even a small amount of power just sit on their asses, covering their ears, and waiting for everything to be alright again.

Now, this I can't prove you wrong on. Everybody has an opinion on what would happen if there was no ideals or morals or loving emotions which I believe comes from years of religious study and practice. And I think humans would not have much of a purpose in the world if they didn't have those things. I'm sorry, but that's just how I see it. How you see it is probably very different.

Again, with dissing religion. You believe it makes you nothing. The religion I practice makes me everything. Again, that is a "your opinion" thing.

I think humans are not creatures of good or evil. They are creatures of discovery. They'll pursue things until they've found proof that its real or until they have experienced it themselves.

And, right now, good sir/lady, you are being the ignorant one. You are only hearing things you want to hear and believing things you want to believe. You don't even try to find the other half of the story. If religion is so bad then why are so many people involved in it?

Religion doesn't have to be right, if your following a peaceful religion it just keeps you from jumping the gun and hurting people. If you don't follow a tranquil religion (Anarchy, Satanism, ect.)...then I'm sorry, because many, including government law do not approve of people who like to make life easier for them and life harder for everybody else.

And no, atheism is NOT included in the bad religion thing.

I apologize if somethings sounds like a statement, I just don't want to stop and write "I think" or "I believe" constantly. I see no point, because all of this religion and belief crap is ONE BIG OPINION if you haven't realized it before.
 
Freddy wasn't really an athiest. He more felt that God was irrelevent, or "dead".
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Hm. I always considered an "athiest" to be someone who didn't believe in God (or gods). I guess you're making a distinction between people who think that there is no God and people who don't care if there is a God. *shrug* ok.

Accepting religion is accepting ignorance.
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hehe. I whole-heartedly agree. I see religions as ancient magicians' guilds that are still in existence. Religions started to satisfy the human need to give a reason for everything. The things they couldn't explain (why people get headaches, why the moon blocks out the sun, etc...) was chalked up to gods, demons, fairies, magic.... And yet, even after we've seen signs of evolution (Lucy) which completely go against what is written in the Bible, people still insist on believing in Creation.

Good example: PBS had a show on about a week or two ago called "What About God?" and had people discussing religion and science. This one guy kept telling these little kids: "If someone comes up to you and starts talking about 'this and that millions of years ago' I want you to ask them 'oh, were you there?'". (Basically, they shouldn't believe any scientific evidence taken from carbon-dating, etc...) I can't believe that this type of brainwashing is still going on in this country (USA... Kansas I think). I just kept waiting for someone in the back to yell out "They why do you believe the Bible? Were you there when it was written?!"
 
"Religion, you must understand, is what creates us, molds us. That's ironic because we created it. We created religion to have something to grasp onto and explain what cannot be explained by any normal mortal standards. We created it and it became our rulebooks. It became our morals and determined what we should value or despise. Every human has a religion, even atheists, who in the long run believe in themselves. And is that not a religion?"

Atheism is lack of religion. Atheists do not 'believe in themselves' in anyway similar to the way a theist believes in a God. I exist. There is proof I exist. There is no proof a God (much less a specific god) exists.


"War, to answer your question, is over power. The want for power comes from our morals, our morals from religion, and religion from ourselves. Even without religion war would still exist because it is soley about the gaining of ultimate power. And power is enough to exist on its own, with no need for just humans. For even animals, who have no religion, fight for power. Its animal nature, and humans are more or less animals. War has almost nothing to do with religion. War is just something we do."

Well said, for the most part. War is part of human nature. However, you will notice that while war is part of our instincts, humans are intelligent enough to deny their instincts in favour of logic. Rape is considerably rare compared to how often the instinct to rape is felt.


"How can a speicies thrive at the top if they've no religion or culture to keep them going on? How?"

Show me one thing that suggest religion is neccesary for success.


"Just to sum it up, yes, life would be more peaceful, but not better. We'd be like the animals: we'd hunt, feed, and mate. That would be our purpose. But with religion we've found a deeper purpose, a need for discovery. Humans need to know what's out there, no matter what the price. Without religion, without a want to know, we'd be emotionless and moral-less, without anything to drive us to be our best. And without that, without what creates who we are, then we are nothing. Religion may be the cause of evil, but it is also our cause for goodness. For truly the one cannot exist without the other. So accept both. Accept religion and get over it."

Completely wrong, in my opinion. I have a purpose in life. It is to gain as much knowledge and wisdom as I can, to play as much hockey as I can and to generally enjoy myself. The only thing I don't have is a promise that this life is somewhat meaningless because some great monster in the sky is going to give me an eternity of hapiness.

Religion has hindered knowledge. Religions (excluding Islam for a large period time) greatly hindered sciences and maths. If you wish to see resources on this, just ask.



"I said atheism is a religion! Atheism isn't bad. Atheism is when your not suppose to believe in any higher beings or what not. They believe in themselves and they believe they control themselves instead of higher beings controlling them. Not bad, but its believing in something and its still a religion. And Gods may not exist to you, but they exist to me. We create what we believe in here, buddy!"

Here's a dictionary definition of "religion; Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe. - A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader."

Please enlighten me as to how atheism fits in.


"Now, this I can't prove you wrong on. Everybody has an opinion on what would happen if there was no ideals or morals or loving emotions which I believe comes from years of religious study and practice. And I think humans would not have much of a purpose in the world if they didn't have those things. I'm sorry, but that's just how I see it. How you see it is probably very different."

Religion creates morals and ethics? How the hell is this true??? I have ethics and morals and I have never been religious.


"Again, with dissing religion. You believe it makes you nothing. The religion I practice makes me everything. Again, that is a "your opinion" thing."

A completely rational and logical human being (and you seem to be at minimum a some-what logical person, though I admitt I don't know you enough to state either way) can very easily understand themselves without a religion.


"Religion doesn't have to be right, if your following a peaceful religion it just keeps you from jumping the gun and hurting people. If you don't follow a tranquil religion (Anarchy, Satanism, ect.)...then I'm sorry, because many, including government law do not approve of people who like to make life easier for them and life harder for everybody else."

Yes. And Christians and Moslems and Jews have never made the world easier for themselves and harder for everyone else......




Tom:

"About a year ago I went to see the Holocaust Museum in Washington DC. Just from looking at all of the different ways people (not just the Jews, but everyone) had been categorized was pretty amazing. (Body size, shape, facial structure, length of fingers and toes, proportionality of various body parts to each other, etc...) From what I got from my experience at the museum was that Hitler didn't so much care about the religious beliefs of the Jews, but more about their physical characteristics. (They were generally shorter, weaker, etc... than people of, say, Norse/Germanic ancestry.)"

Ouch. Congrads on seeing the museum but I advise you do some more in-depth study on the Holocaust before deciding that. What Hitler did was try and de-humanize the Jews by brining out those features in them. Check out what Americans did to Japanese. Somewhere on the net I have a pic of propoganda from Yanks during WWII trying to make Japanese people appear as evil demons (complete with picture of a demon-like Japanese man).


"This gets back to something I read a few years ago. (Sorry, I don't have an exact reference for anyone.) I heard that Hitler had suggested to his officers two books to read for "intellectual and spiritual benefit and growth". The first was the Bible and the second was Neitzsche's "Thus Spoke Zarathustra"."

Sounds like something Hitler would say. Nietzsche's sister was an early fascist and, unfortunatly, she was handed the rights to his works when he died in her care. She edited parts of his works and rereleased them with pre-Nazi fascist sentiments very evident. Anyway, Hitler was definetly influenced by both the Bible (for Christian values/supremacy) and Nietzsche's views on ubermensche.


"A few months ago, to satisfy my curiosity, I picked up a copy of some of Nietzsche's works and it did show one of the fundamental beliefs of the Nazi's: "the master race" (or as Neitzsche put it in TSZ: "the super man" or "the over man"). The "over man" is basically what we should strive to become, improving ourselves physically and mentally so that we would eventually become "gods" ourselves. (Much like how we are so much more "god-like" to apes, the over man would be to normal homo sapiens.)"

Nietzsche did not believe in a master race in the same way Hitler did. Freddy believed in a master man. A way of life and thought that any human being could attain pretty much. Not that specific races were better than others.


"It's also curious that Hitler would recommend the Bible to read along with a book by Neitzsche. (A book about one of the most popular religions in the world with a book by one of the most popular atheists in the world.)"

To quote a book on Nietzsche I own; "Nietzsche is one of the few philosophers since Plato whom large numbers of intelligent people read for enjoyment."


"Hm. I always considered an "athiest" to be someone who didn't believe in God (or gods). I guess you're making a distinction between people who think that there is no God and people who don't care if there is a God. *shrug* ok."

There is a large distinction. One person can say 'There is zero possibility a God exists' and it differs from 'There is a chance, but it is unlikely and frankly, I don't care'....no?
 
Okay, whatever you say! *Slaps Tyler on the back playfully*

I'm not arguing. No point. Why should I make war when I can just kneel down and accept peace?
 
Do not dis my theory, because I'm not dissing yours.

Who's dissing, I'm simply criticizing. If you don't like it, don't post your theories on a forum.

And Gods may not exist to you, but they exist to me. We create what we believe in here, buddy!

No problem, you can create whatever fantasy you wish. I don't create fantasies to believe.

Rational person? Is there such thing?

I suppose from your point of view there isn't. But yes, rational people do exist.

People who don't clamour for even a small amount of power just sit on their asses, covering their ears, and waiting for everything to be alright again.

Rational people do neither. They think things through, come to a decision based on facts and then proceed to act on the solution. Rational people do not clamor for power because they empower themselves. They don't lead by force, they lead by example. They don't follow prophets and fantasies, they follow thinkers and good ideas.

They'll pursue things until they've found proof that its real or until they have experienced it themselves

You can't experience your god nor prove he exists. It's all in your mind.

You are only hearing things you want to hear and believing things you want to believe. You don't even try to find the other half of the story.

Actually, that is how the religious fanatic goes through life. Rational people believe in facts and observations. They seek to know the entire story.

If religion is so bad then why are so many people involved in it?

Because, unfortunately, there are many irrational people in the world. They do not wish to think for themselves but instead, wish to be lead by stories of fantasy and mysticism. To them, thinking is too hard and requires effort.

Religion doesn't have to be right, if your following a peaceful religion it just keeps you from jumping the gun and hurting people. If you don't follow a tranquil religion (Anarchy, Satanism, ect.)...then I'm sorry, because many, including government law do not approve of people who like to make life easier for them and life harder for everybody else.

There's the difference. Rationality means to do the right thing, always. Because people use their brains and think things through, they don't jump the gun and have no intention of hurting anyone. In fact, they will make every attempt so as not to hurt someone, in whatever they do. Religion will do whatever it takes and will stop at nothing to achieve its goals, including hurting people. That's a historical fact.
 
"I'm not arguing. No point. Why should I make war when I can just kneel down and accept peace?"

You previously indicated that you desired to understand life and truth. If you are to do so, I highly suggest you realize that debate can help you to discover where you are right and wrong.
 
What makes you think I haven't, man?

I'm just very simply bored with everything all of a sudden. I'm in a good mood. Now go away.
 
Originally posted by Cris
Some good quotes but these are the side-tracks still. The overriding jusfication was to destroy all Muslims or convert them to Christianity.

All lands and politics in those times were dominated by Church and religious controlled politicians. It is impossible to seperate the politics from the religion.

Sorry, but I still have to disagree with you. Economics and politics are major driving forces behind all wars. The ideologies behind them are primarily responsible for the particular enemy selected but regardless of ideology these events continue. Politics, in fact, can never be disregarded for without leaders there are no wars. Personally, I find that the ideologies involved are secondary, mere tools for the leaders who are the ones who usually set the agenda and focus; lacking one they would select or invent another.

~Raithere
 
Dragon Stone,

Perfect post... :)
I've been talking abiut beliefs controlling people for a looooooong time here... but anybody listen anyways...:rolleyes:
 
Perhaps, Nelson, if you argued using reason and logic people would be more receptive.

It's like picking up women. One does not walk up to a pretty woman and use a pick-up line such as:

"Holy shit, you have the best eyes I've ever seen, if I had those I'd stare in the mirror all day and jack off to myself. So can I get your number?"

One says

"Wow, you have beautiful eyes. May I buy you a drink?"

Likewise, if you maybe once showed evidence for your theories, people would be more inclined to listen.
 
It's like picking up women. One does not walk up to a pretty woman and use a pick-up line such as:

"Holy shit, you have the best eyes I've ever seen, if I had those I'd stare in the mirror all day and jack off to myself. So can I get your number?"

One says

"Wow, you have beautiful eyes. May I buy you a drink?"
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:bugeye:...
... no comments...:eek:

Likewise, if you maybe once showed evidence for your theories, people would be more inclined to listen.
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To explain philosophy, the best I can do is to use analogies... and I do it a lot... but people interpret it literally and then the discussion begins...:bugeye: :eek:
 
...
... no comments...
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Swear to me that you will use better pick-up lines, 'kay Nelson?

To explain philosophy, the best I can do is to use analogies... and I do it a lot... but people interpret it literally and then the discussion begins...
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Umm, perhaps you should re-evaluate your strategy. Many, many philosophers have used logic and evidence to communicate.
 
"To explain philosophy, the best I can do is to use analogies... and I do it a lot... but people interpret it literally and then the discussion begins..."

Every philosophy I have ever read has used analogies, logic and physical examples and evidence.
 
Tyler,

Since my comments above have somewhat strayed from the topic of this thread, I'll try to keep this brief. I agree on Hitler's de-humanization of the Jews. I was just trying to make a point that it wasn't strictly about religion. He used "the enemy's" physical characteristics as well to rally his followers.

"Nietzsche did not believe in a master race in the same way Hitler did."
I agree. That's why I also said: "It seems almost as though someone told Hitler about Neitzsche's "over man" and he just went in his own direction with the idea...."

Finally: what exactly is the definition of an atheist then? Someone who doesn't hold any religious belief? Someone who doesn't believe there (are gods)/(is a God)?
 
Originally posted by Xev
"Wow, you have beautiful eyes. May I buy you a drink?"
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MEN do not listen to women like Xev.

"May I buy you a drink?" - you're giving her authority, what if she says no? :D Men are in control, chumps do the ass-kissing.

Pretty women get approached that way ALL THE DAMN TIME. You saying such a line makes you look like the rest of the chumps. ;)

Trust me on this.
 
I somewhat agree with ~The_Chosen~, but using variations of Xev's first pickup line doesn't work either (on most females). I'm not going to give any personal examples; you're just gonna have to trust me on this one. :D
 
Originally posted by tomzyk
I somewhat agree with ~The_Chosen~, but using variations of Xev's first pickup line doesn't work either (on most females). I'm not going to give any personal examples; you're just gonna have to trust me on this one. :D
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:D I know through experience. But one thing chicks seem to really dig is deep eye to eye contact. If you look firmly into their eyes it displays confidence. A chump would never look firmly into any pretty women's eyes. They are like windows of the soul ;)

Hesitation is like masturbation, in the end your only screwing yourself. :D
 
It's going to take me awhile to get back to this topic, I had no idea it was so possible. It was long forgotten...

we'd hunt, feed, and mate
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This is what the life of any organism really boils down to. Including humans.

And where do ideals come from?
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I always thought ideals came from the human brain, and then the mouth, I guess. Religion was spurred from an ideal or a group of ideals.

I'll be back later to catch up on what's been said more recently, gtg now.
 
Originally posted by (Q)
There's the difference. Rationality means to do the right thing, always. Because people use their brains and think things through, they don't jump the gun and have no intention of hurting anyone.

So you are saying that there are people who exist who never 'jump the gun' or hurt anyone?

Any body we might know?

Love

Jan Ardena.
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Jan

So you are saying that there are people who exist who never 'jump the gun' or hurt anyone?

Any body we might know?

Is that an indirect flame directed at moi ?

I know it may be hard for an irrational person to understand these concepts, but yes, there are people that exist who make every attempt to not jump the gun or hurt anyone. If they do, it is certainly not their intention.

Please remember, nobody's perfect. Rational people make mistakes just like irrational people. The difference is that rational people learn from their mistakes. ;)
 
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