Religion and Art

[Michael]

The problem is that intolerance is not synonymous with theism, or monotheism, or even atheism.

Suppose the other day I was in Narita Japan, visiting a Shinto Shrine. I see some fat Americans taking pictures. One is nice enough to comment on how old this stuff is. To me of course, as I look like a yank. Well, I am actually. Then goes on to say, yes, it's too bad all these people will burn in hell for eternity.

now, this is a natural extension of thought through the lens of monotheism.

I think it's a form of racism.

"It's too bad these people are black, guess they'll burn in hell, huck huck huck...."

You know, monotheism leads people to think that polythiests are "little people with their little minds and their little pretty idols" it leads people to think that it's ok their prophet sent in his henchmen to slaughter and smash up all these other peoples stuff - because thems not da weel gawd. It leads to the TNT explosions of 2500 year old Buddhas etc... on ad infinitum


If you happen to see a WASP clansman hang a black man, a black man he didn't know, because he had black skin, do you THINK oh I don't know, maybe it's a natural extension of white supremacy and that, oh, I don't know, even if some WASP tells you till their blue in the face it's REALLY all about PRIDE in being WHITE - that, it's still bigotry and bullshit?


meh....

I'm back on hiatus!
MII

PS: lets call it non-believer-rage

 

[wynn]

Yes, although I couldn't put my finger on it exactly.

If you can't put your finger on it, then how do you know you have changed?

Like anyone who sees bigots, I feel the need to stand up and say: Hey, you're a f*cking bigot.

There are also people who, upon seeing bigots, don't feel the need to stand up and call them on it.

How come you feel the need to call people on their bigotry?

And moreover, how do you know someone is in fact a bigot? What if they are merely being strategic for some purpose that you are not aware of?

 

[wynn]

Suppose the other day I was in Narita Japan, visiting a Shinto Shrine. I see some fat Americans taking pictures. One is nice enough to comment on how old this stuff is. To me of course, as I look like a yank. Well, I am actually. Then goes on to say, yes, it's too bad all these people will burn in hell for eternity.

now, this is a natural extension of thought through the lens of monotheism.

No, this is not 'a natural extension of thought through the lens of monotheism',

but it is 'a natural extension of thought through the lens of a particular brand of Abrahamic religion'.

Not all forms of montheism preach eternal hell.

 

[Michael]

No, this is not 'a natural extension of thought through the lens of monotheism',

but it is 'a natural extension of thought through the lens of a particular brand of Abrahamic religion'.

Not all forms of montheism preach eternal hell.

I agree that as the world become more multicultural some forms of monotheism are adapting and becoming more open-minded. Which is natural, as more and more people are becoming less and less bigoted compared with a couple generations ago and religion is a reflection of people. That's good to see. Other forms of monotheism appear to be regressing or maybe not, maybe they're staying at about a 6th century tribal herdsmen mentality?

Anyway, we'll see how it goes.


RE: me changing
I wonder what Obama thinks about bigotry? There's some really good conversations I've had with african men who have had to dig deep and forgive bigots to move on, maybe I havn't dug deep enough. maybe I think, them whitecracker-heads are going to come to soon. maybe we need an polytheist Obama or a Buddhist Obama?

 

[lightgigantic]

Suppose the other day I was in Narita Japan, visiting a Shinto Shrine. I see some fat Americans taking pictures. One is nice enough to comment on how old this stuff is. To me of course, as I look like a yank. Well, I am actually. Then goes on to say, yes, it's too bad all these people will burn in hell for eternity.

now, this is a natural extension of thought through the lens of monotheism.

I think it's a form of racism.

"It's too bad these people are black, guess they'll burn in hell, huck huck huck...."

(aside from the issue of eternal (?) hell ......) Destinations after death are determined by action (karma). Since there is no intrinsic action to being of a particular skin colour, its incorrect to say "black/white/yellow/red people go (anywhere)".
Ironically you see the opposite of this bandied about when some people argue that they are automatically "aryan" because they take birth in a particular family (despite definitions of aryan explicitly mentioning requirements of action and quality and not birth).
IOW its an argument for the less intelligent, so don't be fooled.

You know, monotheism leads people to think that polythiests are "little people with their little minds and their little pretty idols" it leads people to think that it's ok their prophet sent in his henchmen to slaughter and smash up all these other peoples stuff - because thems not da weel gawd. It leads to the TNT explosions of 2500 year old Buddhas etc... on ad infinitum

Accepting arguments for the less intelligent is an efficient means to derive a bad result from a good article (whether it be religion, science, philosophy, car maintenance etc etc ...)

If you happen to see a WASP clansman hang a black man, a black man he didn't know, because he had black skin, do you THINK oh I don't know, maybe it's a natural extension of white supremacy and that, oh, I don't know, even if some WASP tells you till their blue in the face it's REALLY all about PRIDE in being WHITE - that, it's still bigotry and bullshit?

It the presence of arguments for the less intelligent, not even polytheism acts as a panacea (since there are also long histories of tribal violence and genocide amongst polytheists that run along the same lines)

 

[wynn]

I agree that as the world become more multicultural some forms of monotheism are adapting and becoming more open-minded. Which is natural, as more and more people are becoming less and less bigoted compared with a couple generations ago and religion is a reflection of people.

You seem to think that the monotheisms that do not have notions of eternal hell are a later development, and that originally, all monotheisms have notions of eternal hell. What evidence do you have of that?

RE: me changing
I wonder what Obama thinks about bigotry? There's some really good conversations I've had with african men who have had to dig deep and forgive bigots to move on, maybe I havn't dug deep enough.

Yes, I think you'll have to 'dig deeper'.

 

[scifes]

That he has staunch reluctance to begin henological discourse I guess ...

what's wrong with being henological??

Religion seems more and more a form of art - the art of myth making.

wow.never seen it that way..you can say it's more of myth consideration and verification..believing the unseen..-needs a BIG imagination-..or a very small one..
first are Muslim thinkers..second are the "sheep"

Anyway, are you saying that all of art is human expression and all of religion is worshiping?

yes..it's like a paint brush is used to paint..nuts can also tickle themselves with it and i don't know what else..

I guess I'm not sure of you post? If it is all the same then you should be able to worship Kali and still be Muslim. Is that true? Can you?

nope.. religion is worshiping..but there is good true worshiping and bad ones..many can paint but not all paint right..
you have to paint the right thing in the right way..other combination are wrong

Think about the different way we even think about Goddesses versus Gods OR how different we think about Deities versus Alien-Overlords (such as Xenu in the Scientology religion) then think about Buddhism or think about how Christians view "God" versus how Ancient Greeks viewed their many Gods (who had flaws similar to themselves) or even the idea of many different Gods. I mean real individual Gods - with their own personalities.

you're discussing the many uses for brushes other than painting..

What do you think of the world being homogenized into one big American-flavored soup?

we're tasting that now..swine flu and global warming and financial crash..atomic bombs, prisoners abuse and bombing countries on will with the UN shutting up..kids cursing words learned from Hollywood and some even worse things..the world is swallowing...we're all waiting for it to get fed up and vomit..it'll feel a lot much better then..

What if the world were being homogenized into one big Islamic-flavored soup?

utopia..good parts of every soup without the bad ones..IF COOKED RIGHT..

What if the world were being homogenized into one big Xenuic-flavored soup?

didn't find xenuic in any dictionary..

 

[Michael]

utopia..good parts of every soup without the bad ones..IF COOKED RIGHT..

While you don't realize it. This leads people to murder other people. Shia murder Sunni because the world would be a utopia if only everyone were Shia (that is IF COOKED RIGHT - Shia flavored). Sunni murder Shia because the world would be a utopia if only everyone were Sunni (that is IF COOKED RIGHT - Sunni Flavored). Christians murder Muslims because the world would be a utopia if only everyone were Xian (that is IF COOKED RIGHT - Xian flavored). Communist murdered non-Communists because the world would be a utopia if only everyone were Communist (that is IF COOKED RIGHT - Communist).

It's a basic fundamental flaw in your belief system that you are now and will forever be blind to.

Next time you hear about a Jew killing a Muslim, or a Muslim beheading a Buddhist or a Hindu burning a Communist or a Communist beating a Chrisitan of a Christian killing a Jew try to remember your idea of "IF ONLY COOKED RIGHT".


scifes, of all the things you have personally learned in Islam, what has been the most profound and had the deepest impact on your world view of humanity? Tell us of the deeper understanding of humanity you have gained from reading the Qur'an.

Right about now you are thinking, you know, nothing much. But, it doesn't matter, soon the brainwashing will take hold, and you'll come up with on excuse why you have nothing to share with the forum of you deep and endlessly profound appreciation of humanity that ONLY Islam has insight into.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[S.A.M.]

So what has atheism taught you, Michael? Besides putting down everyone else's beliefs?

What has been the profoundest and deepest impact on your worldview of humanity?

 

[lightgigantic]

what's wrong with being henological??

its more to the point "what's wrong with not being henological"

 

[Michael]

So what has atheism taught you, Michael? Besides putting down everyone else's beliefs?

What has been the profoundest and deepest impact on your worldview of humanity?

I said I don't mind the modern Buddhist superstition and I said I like visiting Temples to various Gods, I like the Greek myth stories. I don't like inherently intolerant ideas like monotheism.


Atheism hasn't "taught" me anything That's silly really. It's not a teaching. As we said many times, you SAM are atheist for all the same Gods as me - except one.


What of the profoundness you ask?

I can explain it like this: TRY to imagine you were born a Scientologist and lived your whole life truly believing and worshiping Xenu, worrying about what Xenu was thinking about you, trying to please Xenu, thinking about Xenu, turning to Xenu, worrying about your thetian-soul body thingy-ma-bobber and one day you suddenly, without warning had an epiphany - Xenu wasn't real (and this is true - - Xenu isn't real so don't get worried about what Xenu thinks, there is no Xenu, you don't have to feel worried or scared about what will happen to you for realizing Xenu is make-believe)


So, really what you want to know is what did I learn? The deepest impact on my worldview of humanity? Using the above example: Is learning that my epiphany would only truly have meaning to a person born and raised in the religion of Scientology. Was I ever a Scientologist? No. But, I now have a much much better understanding of humanity than a person who views the world through the Scientological lens. And I also understand that it's import that IF people are going to view other humans through a superstitious lens, then said images should be distorted ONLY in a peaceful manner. Combining violence with superstitious bullshit is calamitous. Which means Christian and Islamic lenses will need a hell of a lot of polishing before they are, if ever, acceptable distortion of reality.

I think even Scientology is probably a better belief system - at least they don't model their belief after a petty violent God and his self serving Prophets/Saviors.

MII

 

[Michael]

Arrests in New York 'attack plot'

Mr Cromitie allegedly pointed out Jews in the street, saying "if he had a gun, he would shoot each one in the head", according to the district attorney's statement.

A distorted lens indeed. Perhaps first honed from Jews segregating themselves from Sumerians (monotheism) and later from Arabs and then the Arabs making up their own monotheism and killing off the others and the Jews. All this hate pilled into their myths and passed on into history before finally landing in New York where if not for luck, some poor woman walking down the street would have gotten a bullet in the head.

No, humanity already has enough propensity for violence that there's no need to go off tying justifications onto various superstitious.....

 

[scifes]

While you don't realize it. This leads people to murder other people. Shia murder Sunni because the world would be a utopia if only everyone were Shia (that is IF COOKED RIGHT - Shia flavored). Sunni murder Shia because the world would be a utopia if only everyone were Sunni (that is IF COOKED RIGHT - Sunni Flavored). Christians murder Muslims because the world would be a utopia if only everyone were Xian (that is IF COOKED RIGHT - Xian flavored). Communist murdered non-Communists because the world would be a utopia if only everyone were Communist (that is IF COOKED RIGHT - Communist).

what i'm saying of the soup's taste is that it isn't relative to who made it..it doesn't taste good to them only..if the islamic soup was cooked right everyone will like it..as history has showed us..it tastes even better than soups cooked "right" by others to themselves..simply cuz islam is complete in concept..the "cooked right" is because it's not always so in practice..

It's a basic fundamental flaw in your belief system that you are now and will forever be blind to.

very unfair..maybe you feel the same about yourself..and so generalized..

if i'm painting with a brush..i mught as well be blind to all those who use it otherwise..don't you agree..you'll ask..HOW WILL YOU KNOW?? that you're doing it right and not others..i tell you: the proof of the pudding is in the eating..people are hardwired to worship..so the feeling of worshipping is the truest and sweetes feeling..one which doesn't really need logic once you tried it..the feeling of FULFILLING YOUR PURPOSE..logic is needed to other things..worshipping is like the feeling of the BRUSH when it is painted with..

Next time you hear about a Jew killing a Muslim, or a Muslim beheading a Buddhist or a Hindu burning a Communist or a Communist beating a Chrisitan of a Christian killing a Jew try to remember your idea of "IF ONLY COOKED RIGHT".

i always do..

scifes, of all the things you have personally learned in Islam, what has been the most profound and had the deepest impact on your world view of humanity? Tell us of the deeper understanding of humanity you have gained from reading the Qur'an.

humanity is created to worship god..a human without that goal is purposless..no matter he tries to fill that gap, he will not be happy..

Right about now you are thinking, you know, nothing much. But, it doesn't matter, soon the brainwashing will take hold, and you'll come up with on excuse why you have nothing to share with the forum of you deep and endlessly profound appreciation of humanity that ONLY Islam has insight into.

you answering my question for me means you don't know much about being muslim..(sight):bawl:

Cheers,
Michael

wish you alll the best..yousef

 

[Michael]

It's a basic fundamental flaw in your belief system that you are now and will forever be blind to.

what i'm saying of the soup's taste is that it isn't relative to who made it..it doesn't taste good to them only..if the islamic soup was cooked right everyone will like it..as history has showed us..it tastes even better than soups cooked "right" by others to themselves..simply cuz islam is complete in concept..the "cooked right" is because it's not always so in practice..

humanity is created to worship god..a human without that goal is purposless..no matter he tries to fill that gap, he will not be happy..

Humanity was created, by humans of course, but I don't think it was to worship Gods and Goddesses (which precedes the worship of mono-God [you'd have to give me that one if you read any history]). Humans on the other hand were not "created" we evolved from an earlier primate.

Humans created Humanity.

In the same manner Humans create purpose. I for one am VERY happy with the purpose I have created in my life. I do research I am extremely interested in, I study new phenomenon all the time, I have great colleagues, I enjoy coming to work, I enjoy traveling, my close friends are very close.


Let me ask you a direct question.

Compare two people:

Person A:

Dedicates their life to studying the meaning of the Prophet Ron Hubbard's writings. They spend every day thinking about and studying Scientology Dogma, it's underlying principals, it's implied meaning, it's future meaning, what it might mean, did mean, couldn't have meant. Every day is spend praying 5 times to the Intergalactic Alien and Warlord Xenu. Thinking about Xenu, studying Xenu ... etc...

Person B:
Is an atheistic scientist. Spends their days studying cancer. Thinking about Scientific Journal writings. They spend every day thinking about and studying medicine. - it's underlying principals. Every day is spend running 5 experiments to try and find a cure for cancer.

Which person do you think has wisely lived their life? Person A, Person B? Both? Why?

 

[S.A.M.]

The one who has more fun and less stress?

 

[Michael]

The one who has more fun and less stress?

Say on all other levels their lives are equal. They both have the exact same amount of fun and stress.

 

[S.A.M.]

Not possible. However, I doubt there is anyone who while dying thinks, if only I'd finished that experiment!

 

[Michael]

Anyway, if I said the scientist (which I am sure there are many Scientists who are indeed happy compared with some Scientologists) and so you just proved scifes wrong.

I'd also note scifes, your enlightenment really requires ZERO teaching from Islam. The idea that people need to worship the Gods has been used to rule them since well before the time of the Pharisees. Kind of goes back to my point. You've learned nothing in particular from "Islam".

and back to my other point: You're brainwashed and will soon return to that position of brainwashing. Which goes to my theory that genes and neuronal wiring make some forms of learning impossible.

 

[Michael]

Not possible. However, I doubt there is anyone who while dying thinks, if only I'd finished that experiment!

Yeah, she probably thinks about all the good she's done and what good she has done in her life to help people. And about the people she saved by her treatments....

Seems like a waste to think: Oh XENU you the Great Alien Intergallactiv Federation of Plants OverLord please take me to planet Zoobeepoo-bot-82654-af56-hiuyts-0002. :bugeye:

 

[S.A.M.]

No they don't, when they are dying, they only think about dying. No one thinks of what they did, many think of what they did not do. Most people are afraid, which is why we have priests or family members nearby.

Absolutely no one thinks about work.