Refute of the Proof That the Christian God Does Not Exist
- Thread starter Patriot
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Question is, does God know it before it comes to pass--yea, so.
So, if god KNOWS it will come to pass then that's the way it WILL happen, no free will. It doesn't matter what I choose to do, they are not choices I have made if god already knows they will happen. They are predetermined to happen. Simple, Nisus.
I don't see how people twist, God knowing, into predestination.
Again, simple, here is the definition of predestination: (theology) being determined in advance; especially the doctrine that God has foreordained every event throughout eternity (including the final salvation of mankind).
Do you get it now?
So, if god KNOWS it will come to pass then that's the way it WILL happen, no free will. It doesn't matter what I choose to do, they are not choices I have made if god already knows they will happen. They are predetermined to happen. Simple, Nisus.
I don't see how people twist, God knowing, into predestination.
Again, simple, here is the definition of predestination: (theology) being determined in advance; especially the doctrine that God has foreordained every event throughout eternity (including the final salvation of mankind).
Do you get it now?
(Q) said:
First I take the freedom to choose, which I excersize everyday. So it's obvious I have freedom of will--- and to hypothosize in any way that I don't have freedom of will--- is dumb and shouldn't have any grounds in any conversation because it's absolutly false.
If you start a thought, and end it with "you don't have free will"--- your statement is false.
Basically you're saying "God's not real because we're free, he could only be real if we weren't free, because in the moment that he knows everything, than we are no longer capable of making our own decisions"
The CIA makes predictions EVERYDAY and calculates what people will do, but this doesn't effect the targets decision making.
People need to seperate these two things--
Decisions /// knowledge // are two different things.
God's knowledge doesn't affect your choices. You are free agents unto yourselves. I think you guys make that up so you can blame God for your own condemnation.
Sounds like displacement-- "well since God knew what I was gonna do it's his fault in the first place I chose to murder my wife, therefore I'm not responsible"
Wow--- completely false.
First I take the freedom to choose, which I excersize everyday. So it's obvious I have freedom of will--- and to hypothosize in any way that I don't have freedom of will--- is dumb and shouldn't have any grounds in any conversation because it's absolutly false.
It's not dumb and it's not false, it's a very simple concept you fail to understand.
If you start a thought, and end it with "you don't have free will"--- your statement is false.
That does not follow.
Basically you're saying "God's not real because we're free, he could only be real if we weren't free, because in the moment that he knows everything, than we are no longer capable of making our own decisions"
The existence of god is not the issue here, it is whether or not he is omniscient, which he is not if free will exists.
The CIA makes predictions EVERYDAY and calculates what people will do, but this doesn't effect the targets decision making.
So what, does the CIA claim to be omniscient?
God's knowledge doesn't affect your choices. You are free agents unto yourselves. I think you guys make that up so you can blame God for your own condemnation.
No one is making anything up, you simply fail to understand simple logic.
If something is known to happen a certain way, will it happen any other way than what is known to happen?
Sounds like displacement-- "well since God knew what I was gonna do it's his fault in the first place I chose to murder my wife, therefore I'm not responsible"
That makes no sense, what does that have to do with anything?
It's not dumb and it's not false, it's a very simple concept you fail to understand.
If you start a thought, and end it with "you don't have free will"--- your statement is false.
That does not follow.
Basically you're saying "God's not real because we're free, he could only be real if we weren't free, because in the moment that he knows everything, than we are no longer capable of making our own decisions"
The existence of god is not the issue here, it is whether or not he is omniscient, which he is not if free will exists.
The CIA makes predictions EVERYDAY and calculates what people will do, but this doesn't effect the targets decision making.
So what, does the CIA claim to be omniscient?
God's knowledge doesn't affect your choices. You are free agents unto yourselves. I think you guys make that up so you can blame God for your own condemnation.
No one is making anything up, you simply fail to understand simple logic.
If something is known to happen a certain way, will it happen any other way than what is known to happen?
Sounds like displacement-- "well since God knew what I was gonna do it's his fault in the first place I chose to murder my wife, therefore I'm not responsible"
That makes no sense, what does that have to do with anything?
Your thoughts aren't the product of a superior ability to reason,
they are an inclination of what you wish to believe.
Rational thought and reason forsake you because you can't reason outside of the realm of your disposition to hate God. Get over your complex of being the "opressed outsider" and open your mind. Lest you perish as the offended bi-product of theism.
they are an inclination of what you wish to believe.
Rational thought and reason forsake you because you can't reason outside of the realm of your disposition to hate God. Get over your complex of being the "opressed outsider" and open your mind. Lest you perish as the offended bi-product of theism.
Your thoughts aren't the product of a superior ability to reason,
they are an inclination of what you wish to believe.
So, providing you with agreed upon definitions and then logically linking them together so that even a child could understand is something I wish to believe?
You couldn't even answer a simple question. Instead, you toss out personal attacks.
Clearly, you have no intention of discussing these issues or understanding anything logical.
Get over your complex of being the "opressed outsider" and open your mind.
Here's something you can understand. Fuck you, asshole.
they are an inclination of what you wish to believe.
So, providing you with agreed upon definitions and then logically linking them together so that even a child could understand is something I wish to believe?
You couldn't even answer a simple question. Instead, you toss out personal attacks.
Clearly, you have no intention of discussing these issues or understanding anything logical.
Get over your complex of being the "opressed outsider" and open your mind.
Here's something you can understand. Fuck you, asshole.
Patriot,
The bizarre aspect of timelessness is that he doesn’t have to wait for the choice to be made he simply has perfect knowledge of the outcome.
Now let’s consider this god’s position. He creates a universe out of a possible infinite number of universes, where each possible variation of choice could occur. He has perfect knowledge of every instant from beginning to end. Out of all the infinite variations of universes he selects this one, presumably because it is what he wants.
Now consider your position when you come to make what you think is a free will choice. Your god already knows exactly what you are going to do along with your eventual destiny and that of everyone else. And he knew all this at the instant of creation. So are you free to do anything other than what he already knows you are going to do? No of course not, your path was predetermined at the moment of creation. This is the necessary scenario when a timeless omniscient creator is in the mix.
With a creator who controls all the initial conditions and sees that the ultimate outcome fits his wishes perfectly then everything else in between must necessarily occur according to his wishes, i.e. everything is predetermined. If for example you chose a different choice and the ultimate outcome was not what God wanted then that reality would simply not be one he would allow to exist.
You agree then that your statements are contradictory? You said there are some things that are unknowable but when all points in time are seen simultaneously then everything is known, right? In which case nothing can be classed as unknowable.
As you go on to say this statement has no real meaning, since it implies the passage of time and to him that does not occur.
Perhaps there is a subtle difference between these two statements but I can’t see it. If he is aware then it follows that he knows, right?
Well yes but then they are two different concepts and I have never claimed they are the same, but what you have described is omniscience according to my original definition, i.e. Perfect knowledge of past and future events. But predetermination becomes a necessary result from the existence of omniscience, as I will show in a moment.
OK we all agree on that.
Who has perfect knowledge of everything at every point in time at any given instant, since you have assigned him the property of timelessness.
The bizarre aspect of timelessness is that he doesn’t have to wait for the choice to be made he simply has perfect knowledge of the outcome.
Now let’s consider this god’s position. He creates a universe out of a possible infinite number of universes, where each possible variation of choice could occur. He has perfect knowledge of every instant from beginning to end. Out of all the infinite variations of universes he selects this one, presumably because it is what he wants.
Now consider your position when you come to make what you think is a free will choice. Your god already knows exactly what you are going to do along with your eventual destiny and that of everyone else. And he knew all this at the instant of creation. So are you free to do anything other than what he already knows you are going to do? No of course not, your path was predetermined at the moment of creation. This is the necessary scenario when a timeless omniscient creator is in the mix.
With a creator who controls all the initial conditions and sees that the ultimate outcome fits his wishes perfectly then everything else in between must necessarily occur according to his wishes, i.e. everything is predetermined. If for example you chose a different choice and the ultimate outcome was not what God wanted then that reality would simply not be one he would allow to exist.
(Q) said:
There we go, let it out. Just cut to what you really want to say and skip the psuedo-intellect.
Logic blah, logic is man made and bends to the appropriate situation and power of will.
Power of will---break free of your chains.
Nisus, if God is omniscient - he knows everything - right (after all, that is the definition of Omniscient)?Nisus said:
Now think of a number between 1 and 10.
Does this Omniscient God know what you have thought of before you chose it?
If No - then he clearly is not omniscient as you have stated he didn't know what number you were thinking of.
If Yes - then he must have known what you were going to choose before you chose it with 100% accuracy - and thus you really didn't have any free-will.
Which part of this are you not grasping?
Omniscience and Free-will can not co-exist.
Furthermore - with everything being a mere effect from a set of causes - all the way back to the First Cause, as some call it, then everything is pre-defined by the causes. There is no deviation from this. We may not fully understand the causes for a given effect - but they are there.
Free-will, in the absolute sense, requires an effect (the choice) without a cause - i.e. uncoerced. This can not be. Hence free-will does not exist.
What we call "free-will" is actually nothing more than a pre-determined choice based on the infinitely complex set of causes that we can not comprehend. We thus only see the result - the choice and, unable to see/grasp the complex set of causes before we make our choice, we call it "free-will" - yet the pre-determinism comes in the form of every experience you have had to the time of making the choice plus the genetic make-up of your body.
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What does God's knowledge have to do with my choice?!
Him knowing something doesn't = compulsion upon my desicions, therefore I am FREE to choose for myself.
You limit yourselves way too much. Yes cause/effect but---- the interaction you have and choose to have within the definitions of your environment is your CAUSE. YOUR freedom-- YOUR testament to what YOU ARE<-------------
Without the ability to choose for yourself when to REACT and INTERACT-- simply you cannot progress and mature.
You guys are linking God's knowledge to YOUR decisions---saying that they're NOT YOURS if God knows them. Or that you're not free to decide if he understands your intentions, desires and dispositions that eventually EQUATE what you choose.
Like I said you could simply do nothing at all that is a choice as well. And if God knows that in your heart you don't desire to do anything--- it's not his fault, or will.
Him knowing something doesn't = compulsion upon my desicions, therefore I am FREE to choose for myself.
You limit yourselves way too much. Yes cause/effect but---- the interaction you have and choose to have within the definitions of your environment is your CAUSE. YOUR freedom-- YOUR testament to what YOU ARE<-------------
Without the ability to choose for yourself when to REACT and INTERACT-- simply you cannot progress and mature.
You guys are linking God's knowledge to YOUR decisions---saying that they're NOT YOURS if God knows them. Or that you're not free to decide if he understands your intentions, desires and dispositions that eventually EQUATE what you choose.
Like I said you could simply do nothing at all that is a choice as well. And if God knows that in your heart you don't desire to do anything--- it's not his fault, or will.
I'm just telling you what I think Q, you choose to get offended. Maybe you're not oppressed by theism. Maybe you don't have a religious complex. I think you do, and I think you will be happier the day you can fully separate yourself from whatevers gnawing at you.
But your swiftness in scolding something that simply in your mind "doesn't exist" or "doesn't matter" seems to be fueled by some other anger--suppresion. Else why would you harp on things if they don't matter?
Look at it this way
God's omniscience_______________________________________Free will
whatever you guys are choosing to fill in the blank that's your choice
But both are independant of the other. Period.
But your swiftness in scolding something that simply in your mind "doesn't exist" or "doesn't matter" seems to be fueled by some other anger--suppresion. Else why would you harp on things if they don't matter?
Look at it this way
God's omniscience_______________________________________Free will
whatever you guys are choosing to fill in the blank that's your choice
But both are independant of the other. Period.
Nisus: God doesn't just know about what you are going to do, he made you do it. From moment zip, until the end of time, he created the universe and everything that happens with it. You could not make any decision if it was not for this.
Answer this: Does pacman have free will because I can program it to have the capability to go east, west, north and south?
Answer this: Does pacman have free will because I can program it to have the capability to go east, west, north and south?
I said this earlier to Q--KennyJC said:
Sounds like displacement-- "well since God knew what I was gonna do it's his fault in the first place I chose to murder my wife, therefore I'm not responsible"
That's your argument altogether; trying to say that God is responsible for the decisions that we make.
I also said
"Basically you're saying---
You're only free if nobody knows what you are going to do.
Or you're only free to choose, if nobody knows what you want/what you are going to do."
this whole conversation is LOL and DUMB.
I'm just telling you what I think Q, you choose to get offended.
You're attacking me, not my arguments - it is you who is offensive.
I think you do, and I think you will be happier the day you can fully separate yourself from whatevers gnawing at you.
I wish to separate myself from people like you whose wild imagination and lack of critical thinking skills rules their world.
But your swiftness in scolding something that simply in your mind "doesn't exist" or "doesn't matter" seems to be fueled by some other anger--suppresion.
The supernatural exists in my mind, in my imagination - that is the ONLY place it exists for me and for you.
You're attacking me, not my arguments - it is you who is offensive.
I think you do, and I think you will be happier the day you can fully separate yourself from whatevers gnawing at you.
I wish to separate myself from people like you whose wild imagination and lack of critical thinking skills rules their world.
But your swiftness in scolding something that simply in your mind "doesn't exist" or "doesn't matter" seems to be fueled by some other anger--suppresion.
The supernatural exists in my mind, in my imagination - that is the ONLY place it exists for me and for you.
Nisus said:
It doesn't matter who's fault it is, if indeed it is a fault in God's eyes. The problem remains, wether I kill my wife or treat her well, is it still free will?
Going by the logic of God having all these Omni's such as Omniscience and the fact he put us here, if you believe that sort of thing.
We would maybe have free will if God does not exist. Religion (not to be confused with God) certainly doesn't give us free will, as look at the list of rules you must abide
At least we agree on one thing. But you still haven't acknowledged my pacman analogy.
Pac man is a video game.
Man is to be governed by himself. It's only then will he truly be happy.
If it's impossible for you to believe that God is omniscient, and man is free to choose, i'm sorry for you. If your think logic tells you it's impossible, your logic fails. If reason is telling you that, then your reason also fails.
Because it's not that complicated, for both to exist in perfect harmony.
You've been doing it your whole life.
Man is to be governed by himself. It's only then will he truly be happy.
If it's impossible for you to believe that God is omniscient, and man is free to choose, i'm sorry for you. If your think logic tells you it's impossible, your logic fails. If reason is telling you that, then your reason also fails.
Because it's not that complicated, for both to exist in perfect harmony.
You've been doing it your whole life.