Redefining theism/atheism?

[Hapsburg]

I came across a strange [to me] idea that the Navajo religion is not theism because they don't worship the Yeis, their deities.

If they believe in any form of deity, they are theist. Regardless of if they worship their deities or not.

Theism/Atheism only is in regard to theological stance, not practice. Theism is belief in god or gods, and atheism is the lack thereof.

 

[iceaura]

I would see these practices as theistic.

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Navajo gods and other supernatural powers are many and varied. Most important among them are a group of anthropomorphic deities, {etc}
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I'm really puzzled as to how these constitute an atheistic religion.

I once again point out that you are posting arrogant, colonialist, Western, presumptively theistic descriptions of someone else's rituals and mythologies.

One would imagine the experience of being on the receiving end of such descriptions would inoculate someone against credulous acceptance of their judgments and assumptions. Apparently not.

 

[S.A.M.]

I think Hapsburg has made the relevant point quite adequately.

 

[iceaura]

I think Hapsburg has made the relevant point quite adequately.

? The relevant point is that you are happy to accept Western cultural arrogance and bigoted description as fact when you share the bigotry and the arrogance.

 

[S.A.M.]

I think the relevant point is that you believe a western educated Navajo who said his gods are an atheist religion when the very presence of gods belies his words.

 

[iceaura]

I think the relevant point is that you believe a western educated Navajo who said his gods are an atheist religion when the very presence of gods belies his words.

And the arrogant, Western, colonialist, bigoted, ignorant, presumptuous assumption of the "very presence of gods" is exactly what he most objected to.

There is no presence of gods, in the traditional Navajo religion. According to several of its practitioners, anyway.

In addition, as I have repeatedly noted, the "atheist religion" is my own take on the situation. You may prefer the take of these practitioners:

Their take is that the Navajo have no religion. From other remarks by these sources, I have come to believe that such an assertion is based on repeated encounters with arrogant Western cultural bigots who run around talking about other people's "anthropomorphic deities" and insisting that all religions are theistic. But you may wish to dismiss my assessment of the situation, and agree that the Navajo have no religion.

 

[S.A.M.]

Perhaps the Navajo prefer not to be assessed by their colonists. I can understand how that works too. I don't think they are monotheistic, but nothing about their belief in the Yeis says atheist to me.

 

[iceaura]

Perhaps the Navajo prefer not to be assessed by their colonists. I can understand how that works too. I don't think they are monotheistic, but nothing about their belief in the Yeis says atheist to me.

You are one of their colonists, in this context. Your assessment is objectionable.

You do not, for example, know anything about "their belief in the Yeis" (which varies by individual, of course). They, on the other hand, are somewhat more familiar with the Abrahamic Deity in its variations (as well as the deities of their neighbors the Hopi, etc). So the people with the better information say one thing, and the arrogant ignoramuses say something else. Whom to believe?

 

[S.A.M.]

What do their traditional prayers say to you?


O you who dwell In the house made of the dawn,
In the house made of the evening twilight . . .
Where the dark mist curtains the doorway,
The path to which is on the rainbow . . .
I have made your sacrifice.
I have prepared a smoke for you.

My feet restore for me.
My limbs restore for me.
My body restore for me.
My mind restore for me.
My voice restore for me.

Today, take away your spell from me.
Away from me you have taken it.
Far Off from me you have taken it.

Happily I recover.
Happily my interior becomes cool.
Happily my eyes regain their power.
Happily my head becomes cool.
Happily my limbs regain their power.
Happily I hear again.
Happily for me the spell is taken Off.

Happily I walk.
Impervious to pain, I walk.
Feeling light within, I walk . . .
In beauty I walk.
With beauty before me, I walk.
With beauty behind me, I walk.
With beauty below me, I walk.
With beauty all around me, I walk.

It is finished in beauty.
It is finished in beauty.
It is finished in beauty

 

[iceaura]

What do their traditional prayers say to you?

Prayers? If you say so they must be, eh.

The question is: what do they say to their deliverers? In their original language and normal context?

Let's ask them.

 

[S.A.M.]

Sure, I'll keep looking for signs of their atheism in between all the obvious signs of their theism.

Navajo legend tells us that the Dineh had to pass through three different worlds before emerging into the present world - the Fourth World or Glittering World. So, the Holy People put four sacred mountains in four different directions. Mt. Blanca in the east. Mt. Taylor in the south, San Francisco Peaks in the west, and Mt. Hesperus in the north, thus creating the boundaries of Navajoland. Centuries ago, the Navajo people were taught by the Holy People to live in harmony with Mother Earth and how to conduct their many activities of everyday life. The Dineh believe there are two classes of beings: the Earth People and the Holy People. The earth People are ordinary mortals, while the Holy People are spiritual beings that cannot be seen. Holy People are believed to aid or harm Earth People.

When disorder evolves in a Navajo's life, such as illness, herbs, medicinemen (diagnosticians), prayers, songs and ceremonies are used to help cure the ailment. Some tribal members prefer modern day hospitals on the Navajo Reservation; some seek the assistance of a traditional Navajo medicineman, some combine both methods. Navajos believe that a medicineman is a uniquely qualified individual bestowed with supernatural powers to diagnose a person's problem and to heal or cure illnesses. The Dineh believe they are sustained as a nation because of their enduring faith in the Great Spirit. And because of their strong spirituality, the Navajo people believe they will continue to survive as an Indian nation forever.

http://www.americanwest.com/pages/navajo2.htm

 

[quadraphonics]

I think the relevant point is that you believe a western educated Navajo who said his gods are an atheist religion when the very presence of gods belies his words.

What gods? And since when does the presence of a mythology add up to a religion anyway?

 

[S.A.M.]

Since you have a creationist theory, prayer, sacrifice and end times associated with deities in it.

 

[iceaura]

Sure, I'll keep looking for signs of their atheism in between all the obvious signs of their theism

There are no obvious signs of Navajo theism visible in anything you have posted.

There are obvious signs of your chosen sources' theism and cultural arrogance. Just the latest example, from your most recent posting of arrogant, bigoted, Western colonialist misrepresentation which you seem to accept without question (why?):

The Dineh believe they are sustained as a nation because of their enduring faith in the Great Spirit.

"Great Spirit" is not a term for any Navajo religious entity. It is a racially stereotypical reference probably originating from a Northern Woodland Red deity - say from one of the upper Ohio River tribes, in the area the Mormon religion began. A reference like that is equivalent to dressing a Navajo up in an eagle feather "war bonnet" for tourist photos. It's flagrant.

In the future, as a clue, do not take people who write things like this:

Traditional cooks still use wild plants and vegetables such as spinach, onions, turnips, berries, cactus and cedar brush. For instance, cedar brush is used to add color, a flavor to a popular Navajo delight called blue corn meal pudding.

as authorities on traditional North American Red anything. (Spinach, onions, and turnips are recently imported garden vegetables, brought to the American Southwest by colonizing whites).