Redefining theism/atheism?

[S.A.M.]

They have no "atheist" beliefs, in the special sense you have given us to understand that you use the word.

They just don't have gods, in the sense that differentiates gods from natural entities and/or storytelling beings of various kinds.

But even a quick and cursory Google turns up a lot of stuff like this: http://www.darkfiber.com/atheisms/atheisms/dine.html or this, if you have academic access: http://www.pep-web.org/document.php?id=joap.025.0208a

This discussion of the colonial imposition of concepts from Western Civilization on other people has a lot of content piled up over the years, and the Navajo religion has played a disproportionately large role - for one thing, it's still here. It wasn't wiped out by the great epidemics and subsequent Abrahamic colonization of North America.
It's not as ugly any more, true. But I think it would serve.

I came across a strange [to me] idea that the Navajo religion is not theism because they don't worship the Yeis, their deities.

According to general internet sites, for example:

Navajo gods and other supernatural powers are many and varied. Most important among them are a group of anthropomorphic deities, and especially Changing Woman or Spider Woman, the consort of the Sun God, and her twin sons, the Monster Slayers. Other supernatural powers include animal, bird, and reptile spirits, and natural phenomena or wind, weather, light and darkness, celestial bodies, and monsters. There is a special class of deities, the Yei, who can be summoned by masked dancers to be present when major ceremonies are in progress. Most of the Navajo deities can be either beneficial or harmful to the Earth Surface People, depending on their caprice or on how they are approached. Navajo mythology is enormously rich and poetically expressive. According to basic cosmological belief, all of existence is divided between the Holy People (supernaturals) and the Earth Surface People. The Holy People passed through a succession of underworlds, each of which was destroyed by a flood, until they arrived in the present world. Here they created First Man and First Woman, the ancestors of all the Earth Surface People. The Holy People gave to the Earth Surface People all the practical and ritual knowledge necessary for their survival in this world and then moved away to dwell in other realms above the earth. However, they remain keenly interested in the day-to-day doings of the Earth Surface People, and constant attention to ceremonies and taboos is required in order to keep in harmony with them. The condition of hozoji, or being in harmony with the supernatural powers, is the single most important ideal sought by the Navajo people.

http://www.everyculture.com/North-America/Navajo-Religion-and-Expressive-Culture.html

According to iceaura, this is a misrepresentation of the Navajo beliefs by theists.


I only know what is available on the web about the Navajo. Could someone clarify for me how theism is defined? Is the Navajo society an atheistic society?

 

[iceaura]

Could someone clarify for me how theism is defined?

This should be good.

Anyone attempting this might want to begin by being aware of the context: a "theism", for SAM, does not necessarily involve a deity, any deity whatsoever.

Is the Navajo society an atheistic society?

Not by your understanding of an "atheist society".

I came across a strange [to me] idea that the Navajo religion is not theism because they don't worship the Yeis, their deities.

No. What you came across was the strange idea that the spiritual and story entities of the Navajo were not deities. That they were and are not worshipped was merely one piece of evidence in favor of that description - neither necessary nor sufficient in itself.

 

[S.A.M.]

You realise I'm Indian right? You should read the Ramayana one of these days. Or the Bhagvad Geeta, these are other stories in the same tradition as the Navajo stories. ie lesser manifestations [avatars] of the Brahman [which is not a deity, or at least, not in the classical sense]

 

[spidergoat]

From what I have read, Native American religions were very much like existing theism. I don't know if it was the Navaho, but another tribe I head of had one god, and they took to Christianity readily. The Navaho had witchcraft and supernatural entities, so I would say they were definitely not atheists.

 

[disease]

The idea of a single, all-powerful but unapproachable deity is one of the oldest and most consistent theisms.

Spanish conquistadores and the priests that went had trouble explaining, i.e. fitting into their theistic paradigm, the native religious mythologies, their ideas of "heaven", "hell", etc. Why it looked so much like Christianity.

P.S. Navajo did not worship their deities actively - i.e. ritually. They instead worshipped them by simply living, because they understood themselves as part of the same mythology - they were myths (they dreamed their existence, like the Australian aboriginals) and did not need to worship their existence except by being.
Very Zen.

 

[iceaura]

From what I have read, Native American religions were very much like existing theism.

There were several hundred religions, and tribes with very little in the way of religion, in the Americas in 1492.

Much as in Asia, Africa, and the rest of the planet.

The Navajo's religion is not merely a theoretical entity reconstructable only from remains - it exists now, and speculation is unnecessary.

It is very different from the Hopi religion right next door, which also exists, giving some idea of the range of religious and areligious practice over the continents as a whole.

Other atheistic - excuse me, godlessly theistic - religions still exist in the Americas, as well as peoples of little religion altogether.

You should read the Ramayana one of these days. Or the Bhagvad Geeta, these are other stories in the same tradition as the Navajo stories

More arrogant colonialist presumption. The "same tradition" ? Some humility, please.

 

[disease]

It is very different from the Hopi religion right next door, which also exists, giving some idea of the range of religious and areligious practice over the continents as a whole.

Different in practice, in the rites and the symbols that we see, they might see the differences another way. How different are they, do Hopi and Navajo see each other as atheist?

 

[S.A.M.]

I would see these practices as theistic.

“
Navajo gods and other supernatural powers are many and varied. Most important among them are a group of anthropomorphic deities, and especially Changing Woman or Spider Woman, the consort of the Sun God, and her twin sons, the Monster Slayers. Other supernatural powers include animal, bird, and reptile spirits, and natural phenomena or wind, weather, light and darkness, celestial bodies, and monsters. There is a special class of deities, the Yei, who can be summoned by masked dancers to be present when major ceremonies are in progress. Most of the Navajo deities can be either beneficial or harmful to the Earth Surface People, depending on their caprice or on how they are approached. Navajo mythology is enormously rich and poetically expressive. According to basic cosmological belief, all of existence is divided between the Holy People (supernaturals) and the Earth Surface People. The Holy People passed through a succession of underworlds, each of which was destroyed by a flood, until they arrived in the present world. Here they created First Man and First Woman, the ancestors of all the Earth Surface People. The Holy People gave to the Earth Surface People all the practical and ritual knowledge necessary for their survival in this world and then moved away to dwell in other realms above the earth. However, they remain keenly interested in the day-to-day doings of the Earth Surface People, and constant attention to ceremonies and taboos is required in order to keep in harmony with them. The condition of hozoji, or being in harmony with the supernatural powers, is the single most important ideal sought by the Navajo people.

I'm really puzzled as to how these constitute an atheistic religion.

 

[w1z4rd]

Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

 

[swivel]

Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

Hahaha!

No, SAM, these ideas do not need to be redefined... you just need to learn what they mean.

I think you are dissatisfied because reality conflicts with your bias, and you think semantics will save you.

You need to learn one of two coping mechanisms: 1) Learn to change your ideas when they encounter superior ones. 2) Learn to be happy being mostly wrong and appearing foolish to most others.

 

[S.A.M.]

I think you are dissatisfied because reality conflicts with your bias, and you think semantics will save you.

Thats the excuse I always hear for Orientalism and Indology.

I suppose you think that the Navajo religion is atheistic as well.

 

[LogicTech]

I came across a strange [to me] idea that the Navajo religion is not theism because they don't worship the Yeis, their deities.

I always thought the Navajo religion was a form of animism. They do believe in a deities and spirits, but they don't worship them the way theists generally do.

On the side note, I actually find it quite interesting that theists will label a group of beliefs "atheist" if they don't happen to worship them the same way they themselves do. It would appear that constant acknowledgment and dogma is a requirement of theism...

I only know what is available on the web about the Navajo. Could someone clarify for me how theism is defined? Is the Navajo society an atheistic society?

I can't post any links at this time, but type Holy wind and Natural Law in google, it's the first and second links that will interest you the most.

And no, Navajo is most certainly not an atheistic society.

 

[S.A.M.]

So how is animism a form of atheism? Does athiesm recognise spirits? btw, this is a claim from an atheist, not a theist.

 

[LogicTech]

It's not. Unless this person takes atheism to mean, strictly, disbelief/no belief in the Judeo-Christian-Islamic God.

Though, on the grand scheme of things, the religions of the natives are mostly philosophies, not strictly rituals or commandments. Which is what they should be in any case. It's the same with some other well established religions (e.g. Confucianism)

 

[S.A.M.]

This is sciforums, you'll find many unusual perspectives here.

You may be interested in how some people define religion, for instance

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=88531&page=2

 

[LogicTech]

Ah, I see.

I don't understand why there is such a disagreement, religion by definition is a set of dogmas and ad hoc hypothesis taken to be true on the basis of faith alone. That, or a cult, doesn't matter each way.

 

[mis-t-highs]

Atheism means having a lack of belief, for god/gods devil/demons, spirits/ghosts, witches/ warlocks, fairies/elves, any imagined baseless creature/thing. anything supernatural, spiritual, metaphysical, or celestial.

Anything yours or anybody else in the past or present, has conjoured up.

So you can put Navajo beliefs in there too, as they too have no solid base, just faith.

It is totally irrelevant as to whether they worshipped there gods/spirits/animal guides, the fact that they had imaginary creature, tells us this was and has never been an atheistic culture.

 

[S.A.M.]

Ah, I see.

I don't understand why there is such a disagreement, religion by definition is a set of dogmas and ad hoc hypothesis taken to be true on the basis of faith alone. That, or a cult, doesn't matter each way.

As a theist myself I had no idea that there was a possibility of religious atheists, but I suppose anything is possible.

 

[LogicTech]

As a theist myself I had no idea that there was a possibility of religious atheists, but I suppose anything is possible.

I guess so :shrug:

I don't subscribe to any belief personally. And I'm so tired of these isms and ists, because they imply that all ideas are created equal, rather than stand alone on the basis of their merits.

 

[S.A.M.]

How do you gauge the "merit" of an idea?