Rationality versus religion

[Kennyc]

Religion stems from misunderstanding; not being able to understand the world around us. Religion is unable to accept new information, information that contradicts a belief system. Religion stems from fear.
Rationality stems from understanding or wanting to understand; learning about the world around us in detail. Rationality allows us to accept new information, study it, and learn from it. Rationality is the ability to change our current understanding of the world when new evidence is presented. Rationality is the overcoming of fear.

And the allowance for there being things we do not know and may never know.

Religion on the other hand claims to know all and have explanations for all things (too bad it so often contradicts itself).

 

[Lori_7]

everything you said is bs, read your bible.

this is what happens, when theist's lack of reason doesn't work to convince others, they start veering away from the bible.

do you want to have your cake and eat it too? didn't you say that's a no-no? lol

you don't even understand that the bible does not state that heaven and hell are possibilities but that they exist. also, these so-called parallel universes couldn't exist with the laws you are purporting are necessary. how can one have eternal life if death is required or a possibility? how can good always result if there is a possibility that the opposite can occur? calling it a "possibility" on your account is just pointless.

and yes, i believe you are a christian in the sense most christians are not to be taken seriously either rationally or with their peculiar ignorance of their religion. lol

i haven't said a thing that's not biblical.

i didn't say that heaven and hell did not exist. certainly you would agree that the possibility of something has to exist before it does exist, wouldn't you?

according to law that is given, if you do this, then you have that. if you do that, then you have this. what do you want? that is what the bible says (paraphrased).

 

[Kennyc]

it happened to me. the deity "cooperated with me". :shrug:

Ah but see, you can't prove that to anyone, it could be nothing more than your over-active imagination. :bugeye: In fact it IS nothing more than your over-active imagination and willingness to believe anything without proof.

 

[Lori_7]

Ah but see, you can't prove that to anyone, it could be nothing more than your over-active imagination. :bugeye: In fact it IS nothing more than your over-active imagination and willingness to believe anything without proof.

and you can't prove that to anyone.

my experience has been proof for me, just like many other people's experiences have been proof for them. that's the beauty of it; if you want proof, you have to get your own.

 

[Kennyc]

and you can't prove that to anyone.

Nor do I need to, but it does not prove that gods exist. It just proves that you believe they do. Just as mental patients know there is a monster under they bed that will eat their toes.

my experience has been proof for me, just like many other people's experiences have been proof for them. that's the beauty of it; if you want proof, you have to get your own.

And this is where you are completely and utterly wrong. Proof is something that exists independently and objectively of individual consciousnesses. It is a shared agreement, a consensus of the truth that exists whether humans do or not. If you can't provide that then what you believe is nothing much different than lunatic ravings. :shrug:

Sorry Lori, that's just the way reality works.

 

[Kennyc]

Now to get back to the actual topic at hand....Skeptical I'd suggest you read some of Dawkins work, some of Hitchens work as well as check out some of the videos on line.

Here's a few you tube links:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ImvlS8PLIo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6w2M50_Xdk&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxlPVSAnWOo&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnFMrNdj1yY&feature=related

Much interesting stuff at these sites:

http://www.project-reason.org/about/

http://richarddawkins.net/

Carl Sagans The Demon Haunted World is great.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/03..._m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=1WJW58FZ0417XN3JPQ8K

That's probably more than enough to overwhelm you....or maybe you've already visited, read, listened to those. If so I can provide more info or direction.

 

[Skeptical]

One of the things I have considered for a long time, is that when you think about the 'rationality of religion', there is a big difference between organised religion and the more diffuse feeling of 'something out there'.

Organised religion tries to nail things down, and ends up in contradictions. Like the bible saying that Judas hung himself, in the gospel of Matthew, and saying in Acts that he fell over and dashed out his guts.

The more vague 'something out there' approach is much harder to refute.

 

[birch]

The more vague 'something out there' approach is much harder to refute.

i think a lot of people have that speculation or wonder but they don't just limit it to a concept of a god/creator or entity. they wonder what 'all' is out there or possible.

 

[Kennyc]

One of the things I have considered for a long time, is that when you think about the 'rationality of religion', there is a big difference between organised religion and the more diffuse feeling of 'something out there'.

Organised religion tries to nail things down, and ends up in contradictions. Like the bible saying that Judas hung himself, in the gospel of Matthew, and saying in Acts that he fell over and dashed out his guts.

The more vague 'something out there' approach is much harder to refute.

That can mean a lot of things. I certainly believe that are other intelligences in the universe -- some much more advanced than us and others much less. I believe the universe if virtually teaming with life -- Darwinian evolutionary type life but not as we know it here. I'm filled with a profound sense of wonder every time I look up at that stars. But none of that requires a god or a creator. It's all natural processes as best we can tell. Many things we don't yet understand and many things we may never understand, but that doesn't me we should like primitive peoples make up an explanation, nor should we continue the sham of a reason made up by those peoples thousands and millions of years ago. We must look reality firmly in the eye and know that it is truly amazing and that we may some day be able to explain the things we don't know. We must cast out the supernatural and the irrational and seek the truth.

The universe is truly an amazing place and we are and amazing race of animals occupying one tiny micro-milli-part of it. We should accept that and honor that and do all we can to learn everything we can about this amazing universe we live in.

 

[Yazata]

One of the things I have considered for a long time, is that when you think about the 'rationality of religion', there is a big difference between organised religion and the more diffuse feeling of 'something out there'.

I strongly agree.

Organised religion tries to nail things down, and ends up in contradictions.

Yes.

The more vague 'something out there' approach is much harder to refute.

A religion that doesn't make any particular supernatural assertions can still have very real emotional and 'spiritual' content. Plenty of yogins claim that their path to enlightenment proceeds through states like consciousness-without-an-object. 'Enlightenment' needn't be defined in terms of learning particular facts about this universe or about ultimate realities. It can instead be interpreted in terms of calming and centering in on one's fundamental being and in terms of the emotional and behavioral effects that process brings. In that latter sense it can still be profoundly transformative without necessarily doing great violence to reason.

 

[birch]

The universe is truly an amazing place and we are and amazing race of animals occupying one tiny micro-milli-part of it. We should accept that and honor that and do all we can to learn everything we can about this amazing universe we live in.

your view is no different than lori's except she believes a god is behind it all.

 

[Kennyc]

your view is no different than lori's except she believes a god is behind it all.

And that is EXACTLY the difference and a significant one that completely changes everything.

Ask her if she believe in an afterlife, ask her if she has a soul, ask her if she believes in hell, ask here if she has a "personal relationship" with jesus and god?

Not exactly the same....

 

[birch]

Ask here if she believe in an afterlife, ask her if she believes in hell, ask here if she has a "personal relationship" with jesus and god?

apparently not. she thinks "creation" is perfect. why need heaven? she thinks heaven or hell are just possibilities.

she does state she has a personal relationship with jesus/god but her beliefs also contradict the word of god and jesus. god/jesus are from heaven, according to the bible but she thinks this place is a "possibility". now she's stating that god's home may not exist, i wonder what it would have to say about it or find it insulting? doesn't make much sense but to her it does (lol). she hasn't explained how god is wrong in the bible or made a mistake in translation yet. oh but god is perfect, because she says it is or because it says it is. oh, and there has to be a possibility for wrong to be right so that means god is perfect and infallible. well..because it's god.

it's clear she picks and chooses what she wants to believe and spins her own views as being christian (uh, just like a christian). :shrug:

 

[Kennyc]

... spins her own views as being christian (uh, just like a christian). :shrug:

Exactly. Never a need to find truth.

 

[birch]

Exactly. Never a need to find truth.

what i mean is, she thinks this universe is amazing and perfect just the way it is like a lot of people. she's not much different than a hardcore darwinian. she cares what people do since that's what affects us more.

she doesn't have any moral qualms about nature where a lot of philosophers and some religionists or secularists do. they even question the moral implications of the basis or system of life or lack of compassion in the universe or the amorality of it.

 

[Big Chiller]

One of the things I have considered for a long time, is that when you think about the 'rationality of religion', there is a big difference between organised religion and the more diffuse feeling of 'something out there'.

Organised religion tries to nail things down, and ends up in contradictions. Like the bible saying that Judas hung himself, in the gospel of Matthew, and saying in Acts that he fell over and dashed out his guts.

The more vague 'something out there' approach is much harder to refute.

Yes, this approach works, besides even the organized religions are or at least should be based on this approach, it's theism as separated from religion. BTW the "something out there" or the "one above all" approach isn' just hard to refute but impossible to refute.

 

[birch]

obviously, theists are more concerned with what god represents than whether people accept that god exists or not.

if they weren't so narcissistic, they would understand why people don't care to guess why they think god is so important to be acknowledged.

it would be better to explain what they think god represents that is important or valuable to adore. for instance, some people think god is love etc.

a lot of people would not have a problem with that or at least there would be some working reason to value what it represents as they do.

 

[Big Chiller]

obviously, theists are more concerned with what god represents than whether people accept that god exists or not.

if they weren't so narcissistic, they would understand why people don't care to guess why they think god is so important to be acknowledged.

it would be better to explain what they think god represents that is important or valuable to adore. for instance, some people think god is love etc.

a lot of people would not have a problem with that or at least there would be some working reason to value what it represents as they do.

Maybe there are people who are concerned with the religion itself instead of what the religion is for (it's for worshipping God), besides we end up divided apparently because we are made to operate as separate entities.

 

[Lori_7]

Nor do I need to, but it does not prove that gods exist. It just proves that you believe they do. Just as mental patients know there is a monster under they bed that will eat their toes.

i'm not a mental patient kenny. i have never been diagnosed with any mental disorder for good reason. so you have no proof to back up what you're saying.

And this is where you are completely and utterly wrong. Proof is something that exists independently and objectively of individual consciousnesses. It is a shared agreement, a consensus of the truth that exists whether humans do or not. If you can't provide that then what you believe is nothing much different than lunatic ravings. :shrug:

Sorry Lori, that's just the way reality works.

so you're saying that if i was the only person on earth, that i would not, and could never, have any proof that anything existed? that's interesting (euphemism).

 

[Lori_7]

apparently not. she thinks "creation" is perfect. why need heaven? she thinks heaven or hell are just possibilities.

she does state she has a personal relationship with jesus/god but her beliefs also contradict the word of god and jesus. god/jesus are from heaven, according to the bible but she thinks this place is a "possibility". now she's stating that god's home may not exist, i wonder what it would have to say about it or find it insulting? doesn't make much sense but to her it does (lol). she hasn't explained how god is wrong in the bible or made a mistake in translation yet. oh but god is perfect, because she says it is or because it says it is. oh, and there has to be a possibility for wrong to be right so that means god is perfect and infallible. well..because it's god.

it's clear she picks and chooses what she wants to believe and spins her own views as being christian (uh, just like a christian). :shrug:

you need to stop misquoting me. i never said that heaven and hell don't exist. i said that something has to be possible in order for it to exist. get it straight ok?

better yet, stop speaking for me altogether. it's creepy.