Rationality versus religion

[NMSquirrel]

Unfortunately god has not answered the door when many of us have knocked... For better or worse, we have not had an experience like yours. So what else have we got to go on? :shrug:

there are lots of believers answering those knocks here on sciforums..not very many have i seen have presented the script but their own experiences of who/what god is..

its like one goes to a house and knock on the door, when it gets answered one asks 'how many dogs do you have?' when they answer three, the one proceeds to argue they don't have any..

you have got to be able to accept the answer before you can get answers..

 

[gmilam]

there are lots of believers answering those knocks here on sciforums..not very many have i seen have presented the script but their own experiences of who/what god is..

its like one goes to a house and knock on the door, when it gets answered one asks 'how many dogs do you have?' when they answer three, the one proceeds to argue they don't have any..

you have got to be able to accept the answer before you can get answers..

Cute analogy.. but doesn't change the fact that there wasn't any answer. :bugeye:

 

[NMSquirrel]

Cute analogy.. but doesn't change the fact that there wasn't any answer. :bugeye:

lots of believers keep answering questions here only to get rebuked..

the answers are NOT scientifically based they do not have an empirical/objective answer..

the asker keeps trying to pidgeonhole the answers into a scientific context, thereby refuseing the answer..this does NOT mean there are no answers..
there are answers..its just they are refused..

 

[Jan Ardena]

Skeptical,

Why science?

Because science has proved itself in recent history. Over the past 400 years, it has progressed at a fantastic rate, delivering enormous benefits to humankind.

How has science benefited mankind, spiritually?

Religion, on the other hand, is stagnant.

"Religion" is not the subject matter. I may agree with you on that while at the same time believe in God.


My questions;

Why do you cling to science to prove such things [God's existence]?

What do you know about such things, that makes you think science (modern) can provide answers, to the point of convincing you to believe?

jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Skeptical,

It is not so much the subject of such arguments I dislike. It is the lack of rationality.

If people have experienced ET's (and there are lot's of them), what exactly lacks rationality about their experience?

Why is it ok to not believe them, but be classed as irrational to believe them?

jan.

 

[Adstar]

Originally Posted by Adstar
....


Yes it is Ok, because God wants it that way. If it was scientifically proven that God exists and He is the God of Abraham then some people would submit to Him out of fear not through trust and agreement. Do you think God wants to spend eternity with people who hate the love of His Truth? Therefore His message is the attractor, drawing those who God wants with Him in Eternity.

Ah, the old unproveable cop-out.

It's beyond understanding so you MUST believe.

Sorry, but this simply does not cut it. Appeal to authority, besides being wrong, requires an authority.

No cop-out there at all. I stated a good answer. That God's evidence is the wisdom of His Message. And that evidence is good enough for those whom God wants with Him in eternity.

God's message is understandable.

Nearly every supposed atheists i have ever discussed God with has used disagreement with the teachings and acts of God as a argument against the existence of God. How illogical is that.

"I disagree with God therefore God does not exist"

Like saying i am offended my mein kamph therefore Hitler never existed and WW2 never happened.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

The problem is that the words 'agnostic' and 'atheist' are not clearly defined. I have seen various meanings for the two words. Not unusual. Lots of words are a bit ambiguous in meaning. That does not mean much.

On trust versus faith. Yes, they are very similar. In some situations, they are synonyms. Trust, like faith, needs to be modified by healthy scepticism. Being over trusting is another invitation to being screwed.

But we are not talking about having trust/faith in another human being. We are talking about God.

Being sceptical about another human being is a good thing. I am very sceptical about politicians police and judges and religious leaders. In fact anyone in authority or anyone who is trying to sell me something. Scepticism is a good defence against being "screwed" by these people.

BUT... BUT... If God has it in for you, Then no amount of scepticism will defend you against being "screwed" by God. If God is out to get you and cast you into the eternal lake of fire, your scepticism will make not one jot of difference to the eternal outcome. So scepticism affords One no defence what so ever in relation to God.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[NMSquirrel]

BUT... BUT... If God has it in for you, Then no amount of scepticism will defend you against being "screwed" by God. If God is out to get you and cast you into the eternal lake of fire, your scepticism will make not one jot of difference to the eternal outcome. So scepticism affords One no defence what so ever in relation to God.

i would argue with the term 'get you'..

that intones a negative..god can be focused on you, as far as you learning what he wants you to learn..I mean..if you are not going down the path he wants you to go, he can put more struggles in the way..but all this is to try to get you on the right path (so to speak)..once you are able to look back (w/god colored glasses) you will see how the struggle has benefited you..
you would not be you without it..

 

[Adstar]

i would argue with the term 'get you'..

that intones a negative..god can be focused on you, as far as you learning what he wants you to learn..I mean..if you are not going down the path he wants you to go, he can put more struggles in the way..but all this is to try to get you on the right path (so to speak)..once you are able to look back (w/god colored glasses) you will see how the struggle has benefited you..
you would not be you without it..

Not sure how your reply relates to what i said?

But my reply to your post is this verse:

Romans 8
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Skeptical]

To Jan

Sorry not to reply earlier. I have been away for a few days.

Re your queries.

1. How has science delivered spiritual benefit?

That is one hell of a question to ask a non believer. I suspect that your defined meaning of the word 'spiritual' is something I would regard as being non existent. Science will not deliver a benefit that does not exist. If you want to push this one, I would ask for your definition of 'spirituality'.

2. Why do I cling to science to look for evidence of God's existence?

Because science has the track record. Science increases our knowledge and our understanding of the universe every decade that passes. Religious ideas do not. They stick to 'faith', rather than evidence.

3. Why do I think science can provide answers?

Again, because of its track record. One of the things science cannot provide, is answers about something that does not exist. Science has shown not the slightest sign of being able to provide answers about deity, and it is very strongly likely that this is because deity does not exist.

4. Why is belief in ET irrational?

It is not belief in ET per se that is irrational. It is very possible, indeed probable, that some version(s) of ET exist out there in the wider universe. It is the belief that ET is currently zapping around the world, buzzing assorted observers, that is irrational. It is irrational because the evidence is not credible.

 

[NMSquirrel]

Because science has the track record. Science increases our knowledge and our understanding of the universe every decade that passes. Religious ideas do not. They stick to 'faith', rather than evidence.

um are you thinking of all the ones who claim stuff like 'i don't need a doctor, god will save me'..?
or the ones who say evolution doesn't exist?

and alot of believers i know, accept evidence for most all things..save evolution..and i think alot of that attitude is cause they are forced to choose a side..

would it be more accurate to say;
science searches for ways to explain the unknown
Religion searches for ways to accept that which is unknown
?

 

[Kennyc]

,...
would it be more accurate to say;
science searches for ways to explain the unknown
Religion searches for ways to accept that which is unknown
?

Not at all.

Science searches for explanations of the world around us using the scientific method.

Religion makes up explanations for things in the world around us without recourse to any method, rationality or logic.

 

[NMSquirrel]

Not at all.

Science searches for explanations of the world around us using the scientific method.

Religion makes up explanations for things in the world around us without recourse to any method, rationality or logic.

Science comes across an unknown and seeks to examine it..
Religion comes across an unknown and seeks to explain it..
Hunters come across an unknown and seeks to shoot it..

(sorry..last one just felt right..lol)

 

[Kennyc]

Science comes across an unknown and seeks to examine it..
Religion comes across an unknown and seeks to explain it..
Hunters come across an unknown and seeks to shoot it..

(sorry..last one just felt right..lol)

I just finished reading Bill Bryson's - A Short History of Nearly Everything
http://www.amazon.com/Short-History-Nearly-Everything/dp/0767908171

Highly recommended. Excellent book!

In the final chapter he talks a lot about the species we've "extincted" -- birds in particular by "collectors" shooting the last of the species....intentionally even!

 

[Skeptical]

From Squirrel

"would it be more accurate to say;
science searches for ways to explain the unknown
Religion searches for ways to accept that which is unknown
?"

Actually, it is hard to totally generalise about religion. It is such a mish mash of ideas and beliefs, often contradicting each other.

No. I do not think we need religion to accept that which is unknown. There are heaps of things unknown to me. Lots of known unknowns, in that I know I do not understand these things. Yet I can accept them, simply by accepting my limitations. I cannot know and understand everything, and I can live with this without trying to cover them with some mythology.

 

[aaqucnaona]

Rationality is a human ability, posessed to some levels, by many other species too. Its the capablity of the human brain to computationally derive patterns from a limited number of observations, which, through deduction and logic can make predictions which are statistical but for all purposes absolute. This is the basis for all philosphy in the classical world and the basis of modern science.
Religion on the other hand comes from an evolutionary remanent, explored excellently by Shermer in "The Believing Brain", where the very idea of belief is a evolutionary result of pattern recognition, where a ruffle in the grass is associated with a predator, which has a evolutionary advantage, however, it also includes agenticity in a situation where there is none. This then, is the basic of belief in anything, in hope, in fate and destiny and in God.
A long but precise answer to ur question, what is reason and its relation to God.
Btw, look at my post on religion if it may help with ur, em, perpective.

 

[lightgigantic]

Rationality is a human ability, posessed to some levels, by many other species too. Its the capablity of the human brain to computationally derive patterns from a limited number of observations, which, through deduction and logic can make predictions which are statistical but for all purposes absolute. This is the basis for all philosphy in the classical world and the basis of modern science.
Religion on the other hand comes from an evolutionary remanent, explored excellently by Shermer in "The Believing Brain", where the very idea of belief is a evolutionary result of pattern recognition, where a ruffle in the grass is associated with a predator, which has a evolutionary advantage, however, it also includes agenticity in a situation where there is none. This then, is the basic of belief in anything, in hope, in fate and destiny and in God.
A long but precise answer to ur question, what is reason and its relation to God.
Btw, look at my post on religion if it may help with ur, em, perpective.

The irony is that you just confounded your ideas on rationalism when you started talking about religion.

 

[Felixx89]

I think religion is a way to control people from going out of control. Do you know how rich the vatican is? Do you know how much jehova's whitnesses invest in magazines and revenue? Do you know how much profit certain shops and dealers make by selling witch or demon stuff? IF YOU DONT FOLLOW THEIR RULES YOU DIE HORRIBLY IN HELL AND BURN ETERNAL. Who wouldnt be scared? The reason you want to believe its real is because there is no answer for at least half your questions. Why are we here? What is our purpose? How did the universe come here? etc. A matter of faith is not enough in this cruel world.

 

[lightgigantic]

I think religion is a way to control people from going out of control.

sounds like a good opening premise for rendering religion valid

Do you know how rich the vatican is? Do you know how much jehova's whitnesses invest in magazines and revenue? Do you know how much profit certain shops and dealers make by selling witch or demon stuff?

Do you know how absurd it is to establish a management basis for anything bereft of finance in this modern world?

IF YOU DONT FOLLOW THEIR RULES YOU DIE HORRIBLY IN HELL AND BURN ETERNAL. Who wouldnt be scared?

leaving aside the eternal thing for a moment, do you think its possible to establish any sort of social order bereft of negative consequences?

The reason you want to believe its real is because there is no answer for at least half your questions.

and the reason for your doubt is not because you believe that there is no answer for half your questions (whatever they may be - lol)

Why are we here? What is our purpose? How did the universe come here? etc. A matter of faith is not enough in this cruel world.

Even rationalism without a sense of purpose is pathetic
:shrug:

 

[-dibbler-]

I would say religion fills a social need for prescriptive morality, and it does it very effectively. If you consider culture to be emrgent from natural selection, then it's the most sophisticated social tool we have.

I'm an atheist, but even so i think we are the poorer at the group level if we abandon religion, because we're then obliged to also abandon prescriptive morality.
I concede that this is a very contorted position... but still

I think care should be taken when advocating rationalism since positions such as logicism and relativism appear to be utterly usekess. I like Bertrand Russel's suggestion that when picking between axioms that are similarly reasonable it's permissable to select for results; to assume your first principles on the basis of their good consequences i.e the peano axioms with are needed for much of modern maths (AFAIK - i'm not expert!)