Rationality versus religion

[birch]

how do you think you know so much about christians if you're not one yourself?

because i've dealt with them and live in their world. most people are religious or theists.

 

[NMSquirrel]

please, that's outright laughable. it's just simply not true and if it is, it's very, very rare. christians believe christian doctrines. that is why they are christian and not another faith. as a matter of fact, they would not be arguing for their religion on this forum.

again..most of the argueing that i have seen on this forum have been the believers defending themselves from the non-believers..

they would be more respectful or they would frequent their own forums.

did you read my post as to why i am here and not some christian board?

and here you are making excuses for them.

i tend to do that..

as if we are supposed to be waiting for one to do that and until then, it should never be pointed out that they are just as hypocritical or bigoted while christians play the victim card because atheists don't respect their beliefs.

i will quickly add that i won't argue, if you were to say the majority of christians are like that..what i am argueing with, is you say ALL christians are like that..that reeks of predjudice and bigotry..

pot/kettle. also, again, you ignore that it's christians always trying to get others to respect their beliefs (which is akin to agreeing with them) as if they are on some high horse.

no it is not akin to agreeing with..you do not have to agree with me..just don't demean me cause my beliefs are different than yours.

if you look at the wording over and over, it's clear. i don't see that with other philosophies and that's why they don't get the negative response like christians do.

they get the negative response cause of all the christians who ARE extreme about their beliefs, that is not the majority though..just like muslims the majority are not terrorist, dont judge the whole cause a few of them screw it up..(i am talking about the individual not the religion)
this falls into the argument of self worth and using religion as an excuse to make oneself feel worthy by pointing out the flaws of others..(wait..doesn't everyone do that? not just theist?)

please, that's laughable. it's christians who need to learn respect. they are long and way overdue.

where have i not shown you respect?
when have i insulted you?
when have i told you you were delusional?
when have i told you that your beliefs are BS?

 

[birch]

again, it's about the beliefs.

it's like saying that if someone believes that murder is okay, their belief should be respected. no, it doesn't.

i only respect philosophies that are tolerant of other religions or paths, do not place them above or below and consider that they can be right for others if the motive is to seek truth, compassion, understanding and enlightenment.

the analogy is that fundamental religions is akin to saying only one country or culture exists or one color in the rainbow.

i just do not respect that and i do think the religious doctrines or religion is bs.

 

[NMSquirrel]

again, it's about the beliefs.

it's like saying that if someone believes that murder is okay, their belief should be respected. no, it doesn't.

murder is ok..just ask anyone in the military..

i only respect philosophies that are tolerant of other religions or paths, do not place them above or below and consider that they can be right as well if the motive is to seek truth, compassion, understanding and enlightenment.

true enough..

the analogy is that fundamental religions is akin to saying only one country or culture exists or one color in the rainbow.

see now you are getting more specific in your description of christians you are refering to..:thumbsup:
and i do not subscribe to that belief..i believe every religion has a piece of the puzzle..that no ONE religion has ALL the answers..

i just do not respect that and i do think the religious doctrines or religion is bs.

this is a more acurate statement than condeming all christians..
and don't stop at just thinking it is ALL BS, scrutinize it to see what about it is BS and how HUMANS have contributed to that BS..
you should find that there is no differance between theist and atheist..
IOW whatever the atheist accuse the theist of doing the atheist is guilty of also (and vice versa)

 

[Lori_7]

because i've dealt with them and live in their world. most people are religious or theists.

dealt with them how?

i live in a world with a bunch of physicists and chemists and biologists, but i went to school for accounting so i don't know much about those things. i live in a world with a bunch of muslims and buddhists but don't know much about those religions. i live in a country that has a black population, and i don't know what it's like to be black in this country.

would you say that your view of christians is much like a racists view of black people? you know...they're all the same. sounds like it to me.

 

[birch]

would you say that your view of christians is much like a racists view of black people? you know...they're all the same. sounds like it to me.

your tactic is starting to really piss me off. i could say the same for theists views about atheists. with theists the insult goes even deeper as they not only think that atheists are wrong but they think people of other religions are usually wrong and they will go to hell. how the hell do you know? you aren't them and you don't know them or their religion. you only know your religion and what it tells you. how do you know that god does not speak to others with or without christ? how do you know if others who are not christian are not working for the greater good? you aren't them and walked in their shoes, right? how do you know anything about what is going to happen to anyone? you belong in the group that is the most guilty and you have the nerve to spout this hypocrisy.

what's even more absurd and hilarious is you are using the same argument as msquirrel but your religious views are even more intolerant and exactly what i think is bigoted.

on the same token, who are these mass of christians you think you are defending and how do you know what they think? you are saying that they are all different and if they are, then their label of christian is rather irrevelant in reality when it comes down to it? it could veer wildly from what you believe, so why would you even care to defend them? what would even be the reason? what if someone who claims to be a christian believes that gay marriage is fine? or that abortion is fine? or that people of other religions will not go to hell or even atheists as long as they are trying to do the right thing? or that other religious paths are just as valid?

so this cheap ruse and excuse you are using is rather disingenous and smoke/mirrors isn't it? if you don't believe what other supposed christians might, it's moot as to why you are concerned with whether they are all considered the same? then it's just a "label" that means nothing. how about the fact, some may consider YOU'RE an example of what christians should not be judged by and they don't all have your bigoted views?

the reason why you don't understand other religions is because you've never tried to learn about them. your reasoning is rather unrealistic (no big surprise). just because you aren't a christian doesn't mean you can't understand the religion just as one can learn what buddhism is even if they aren't a buddhist.

this is a more acurate statement than condeming all christians..
and don't stop at just thinking it is ALL BS, scrutinize it to see what about it is BS and how HUMANS have contributed to that BS..
you should find that there is no differance between theist and atheist..
IOW whatever the atheist accuse the theist of doing the atheist is guilty of also (and vice versa)

this is the same misconception that's used over and over.

a person shouldn't have to scrutinize your damn religion to figure out who did what bs and how it screwed up religion when it's the doctrines themselves. that is quite a laugh. those are just further excuses. the point is that christians identify as christian which represents the entire whole.

otherwise, one could just cite jesus' message and follow that as a way of life without even calling themselves a christian.

 

[Lori_7]

your tactic is starting to really piss me off. i could say the same for theists views about atheists. with theists the insult goes even deeper as they not only think that atheists are wrong but they think people of other religions are usually wrong and they will go to hell. how the hell do you know? you aren't them and you don't know them or their religion. you only know your religion and what it tells you. how do you know that god does not speak to others with or without christ? how do you know if others who are not christian are not working for the greater good? you aren't them and walked in their shoes, right? how do you know anything about what is going to happen to anyone? you belong in the group that is the most guilty and you have the nerve to spout this hypocrisy.

what's even more absurd and hilarious is you are using the same argument as msquirrel but your religious views are even more intolerant and exactly what i think is bigoted.

on the same token, who are these mass of christians you think you are defending and how do you know what they think? you are saying that they are all different and if they are, then their label of christian is rather irrevelant in reality when it comes down to it? it could veer wildly from what you believe, so why would you even care to defend them? what would even be the reason? what if someone who claims to be a christian believes that gay marriage is fine? or that abortion is fine? or that people of other religions will not go to hell or even atheists as long as they are trying to do the right thing? or that other religious paths are just as valid?

so this cheap ruse and excuse you are using is rather disingenous and smoke/mirrors isn't it? if you don't believe what other supposed christians might, it's moot as to why you are concerned with whether they are all considered the same? then it's just a "label" that means nothing. how about the fact, some may consider YOU'RE an example of what christians should not be judged by and they don't all have your bigoted views?

the reason why you don't understand other religions is because you've never tried to learn about them. your reasoning is rather unrealistic (no big surprise). just because you aren't a christian doesn't mean you can't understand the religion just as one can learn what buddhism is even if they aren't a buddhist.




this is the same misconception that's used over and over.

a person shouldn't have to scrutinize your damn religion to figure out who did what bs and how it screwed up religion when it's the doctrines themselves. that is quite a laugh. those are just further excuses. the point is that christians identify as christian which represents the entire whole.

otherwise, one could just cite jesus' message and follow that as a way of life without even calling themselves a christian.

wow, you're a raging hypocrite. do you know what it takes to be a hypocrite? a lack of insight. so far you've demonstrated a lack of insight into the foundational tenets of christianity in general, the difference between god and religion, and the beliefs and motives of people like me and mr. squirrel. but it goes beyond that if you ignore abundant available resources regarding the subject, and emphatically ignore statements that people like me and mr. squirrel make, which you do. that speaks to your motive. it's not impressive, and 'smoke and mirrors' won't hide it.

for example, you've apparently chosen to ignore the fact that squirrel and i both have explained to you that in our opinion, religion doesn't matter. so being of a logical mind, i have to ask, how is your tirade over religion here relevant to that?

 

[birch]

for example, you've apparently chosen to ignore the fact that squirrel and i both have explained to you that in our opinion, religion doesn't matter. so being of a logical mind, i have to ask, how is your tirade over religion here relevant to that?

please, don't tell us about hypocrisy. your arguments are just switched up when it suits you. you said that religion doesn't matter, then you state that without christ, one is doomed.

make up your mind.

you ignore abundant available resources regarding the subject

this is even more irrevelant considering they all contradict eachother. i even posted "for you", some resources from other christians whom totally disagree with your take on the bible.

what sources are you talking about that is the "true" one? lol

 

[Lori_7]

what you don't get is that god is not a religion. neither is christ. neither is buddah. neither is allah. religion is it's own animal, and it's an animal that i don't want much to do with. when i say i don't go to church, i am the church, that's what i mean. "the church", as described in the bible, is not a place, and it is not a particular group of religious people. "the church", imo, will most likely be comprised of the most wide variety of religious, non-religious, ethnicities, sexes, ages, and lifestyles, but with a common desire and knowledge that has nothing to do with that.

religion is nothing more than an organization that's based on some book, or concept, or god, or person...but the religion is not the book, concept, god, or person itself. if someone were to want to take the experience i had in 2005 and build a religion around it, they could. once a week they could all get together and don fuzzy robes, drink beer, and dance around. once a year they could practice the ritual of kicking their dining room wall repeatedly until they've broken their toe. hang pictures of rock stars around their homes, maybe have little statues.

perhaps i could write a book about what happened to me and they can number the sentences in it, and memorize them so they can recite them.

or perhaps they could just read it, find it interesting or not, and move on with their lives, and maybe one day experience something themselves that they can relate it to...maybe not. don't you see that religion is not going to allow someone else to experience what i did? and it's no indication that they're going to understand the meaning of it. it's not going to allow them to know me. you know, you can get on your knees 3 times a day and bow to a wall, and due to that over time, you will come to know how to get on your knees and bow to a wall very well. but it won't get you to god, and neither will singing a song, or practicing a ritual, or donning a costume, or reading a book, or being a member of any man-made organization or religion.

 

[Lori_7]

please, don't tell us about hypocrisy. your arguments are just switched up when it suits you. you said that religion doesn't matter, then you state that without christ, one is doomed.

make up your mind.

i also told you that christ is not a religion, and what do you know? you ignored that too.

this is even more irrevelant considering they all contradict eachother. i even posted "for you", some resources from other christians whom totally disagree with your take on the bible.

what sources are you talking about that is the "true" one? lol

the holy spirit and personal experience. you know, those things you're avoiding by talking about religion?

 

[Lori_7]

oh, and btw, if anyone is really interested in practicing my religion, i thought i'd mention that you do get to drink beer before you kick the wall until your toe breaks. just so you know. i do think that pain, and beer come to think of it, do help to clear your mind of other things which helps you to focus, or not focus, however you choose to see it. but more than that, i just think it would be HILARIOUS.

 

[birch]

what you don't get is that god is not a religion. neither is christ. neither is buddah. neither is allah. religion is it's own animal, and it's an animal that i don't want much to do with. when i say i don't go to church, i am the church, that's what i mean. "the church", as described in the bible, is not a place, and it is not a particular group of religious people. "the church", imo, will most likely be comprised of the most wide variety of religious, non-religious, ethnicities, sexes, ages, and lifestyles, but with a common desire and knowledge that has nothing to do with that.

religion is nothing more than an organization that's based on some book, or concept, or god, or person...but the religion is not the book, concept, god, or person itself. if someone were to want to take the experience i had in 2005 and build a religion around it, they could. once a week they could all get together and don fuzzy robes, drink beer, and dance around. once a year they could practice the ritual of kicking their dining room wall repeatedly until they've broken their toe. hang pictures of rock stars around their homes, maybe have little statues.

perhaps i could write a book about what happened to me and they can number the sentences in it, and memorize them so they can recite them.

or perhaps they could just read it, find it interesting or not, and move on with their lives, and maybe one day experience something themselves that they can relate it to...maybe not. don't you see that religion is not going to allow someone else to experience what i did? and it's no indication that they're going to understand the meaning of it. it's not going to allow them to know me. you know, you can get on your knees 3 times a day and bow to a wall, and due to that over time, you will come to know how to get on your knees and bow to a wall very well. but it won't get you to god, and neither will singing a song, or practicing a ritual, or donning a costume, or reading a book, or being a member of any man-made organization or religion.

NOW you've finally decided to make clear what you believe. or it seems that you've done that after all the feedback of other people's posts and you've compiled it passing it off as your own! otherwise, why didn't you post this before when you were asked over and over again? it was like pulling teeth.

don't preach to me about what god is or isn't. what's even more arrogant is your pretense that i or those who have been posting don't already know what you NOW decided to spout and have been telling you all along! you've been going back and forth contradicting yourself until the coast was clear to what you think would be acceptable to those here, again pretending that they are the ignorant ones.

you stated that those without christ was doomed and it took you a long time to even get to concede that religion is not important or even that christ is not the only way.

you pretend this was what you believed all along, if you did you would have posted this way before!

 

[Lori_7]

NOW you've finally decided to make clear what you believe. or it seems that you've done that after all the feedback of other people's posts and you've compiled it passing it off as your own! otherwise, why didn't you post this before when you were asked over and over again? it was like pulling teeth.

don't preach to me about what god is or isn't. what's even more arrogant is your pretense that i or those who have been posting don't already know what you NOW decided to spout and have been telling you all along! you've been going back and forth contradicting yourself until the coast was clear to what you think would be acceptable to those here, again pretending that they are the ignorant ones.

you stated that those without christ was doomed and it took you a long time to even get to concede that religion is not important or even that christ is not the only way.

you pretend this was what you believed all along, if you did you would have posted this way before!

i've been a member of this forum for about a decade, and i've never believed anything else. i have reiterated my thoughts on religion here countless times.

you come across as being slightly crazed and off your rocker. you should chill.

can i get a witness?

 

[NMSquirrel]

then their label of christian is rather irrevelant in reality when it comes down to it?

the actual word christian only means to be christ like..
ppl tend to assign more meaning to it when talking about religion..
so of course there are gonna be some misunderstanding when someone says 'christian'

what if someone who claims to be a christian believes that gay marriage is fine?

i do not think it is fine..but i will NOT condemn a person for being gay or for being married..

or that abortion is fine?

yea..ppl want to make it a law that forces more ppl into this world who don't wanna be here..givin the choice between an abortion and have the kids raised by parents who do not want them(abusive,neglective,druggies), i would think the better option is abortion..

or that people of other religions will not go to hell or even atheists as long as they are trying to do the right thing? or that other religious paths are just as valid?

that is not for us to decide, any accusations to such is purely opinion.

then it's just a "label" that means nothing.

actually the label christian is the closest i have to describe myself..any other label is just insufficient..

how about the fact, some may consider YOU'RE an example of what christians should not be judged by

now there is an honest statement..this is what i argue with..don't take all the bad things that christians do and lump it together for a reason to be a hater..
christians are just as screwed up as non-christians..i hate that some christians try to act all perfect..

this is the same misconception that's used over and over.

why is the fact that christians are just as human as you are, a misconception?
i am arguing with you to try to reconcile the common misconceptions about christians..(i use that term loosley,just to mean anyone who believes in christ)

a person shouldn't have to scrutinize your damn religion to figure out who did what bs and how it screwed up religion when it's the doctrines themselves. that is quite a laugh. those are just further excuses. the point is that christians identify as christian which represents the entire whole.

the doctrines themselves were made by humans..and as such are susceptible to error..doctrines are not ordained by god..they are ordained by man.
AND i do not consider myself religious in ANY way..just cause i believe in god does not make me religious,,religiousness is ritual and adherence to a particular doctrine..so your statement about MY religion is inaccurate..
if it were my religion it would be called 'Church of the living Squirrel'..lol..

otherwise, one could just cite jesus' message and follow that as a way of life without even calling themselves a christian.

see that would work..but ppl tend to put labels on things and the term 'christian' (to be christ like) is the closest some are comfortable labeling themselves..

 

[NMSquirrel]

you come across as being slightly crazed and off your rocker.

i have got to say this lori...

you are guilty of the same thing...

 

[Skeptical]

Query to squirrel.

I am looking to see why religious peoples believe. In other words, what evidence do they see for their particular deity?

So why are you a christian? What evidence convinces you that the christian type deity exists?

I have seen Lori's evidence. That is : subjective personal religious experience, of a type that has been demonstrated to be inducable by drugs and other means. Clearly not a form of evidence that is scientifically admissable.

So, squirrel, is your evidence better, and what is it?

 

[NMSquirrel]

Query to squirrel.

I am looking to see why religious peoples believe. In other words, what evidence do they see for their particular deity?

first the word evidence is misleading..it denote an objective frame of reference..
what you said..

subjective personal <Deleted> experience

sums up what christians deem as evidence..
this includes me..i cannot share with you why i believe and expect you to believe for the same reasons..everyone has their own reasons..
to answer at risk of offending other believers i would answer..(applies to me also)
I get sick of the world putting me down, telling me i cannot do this or cannot do that..telling me how worthless i am..at church (the right one) you do not get that because the ppl are there for the same reasons, they want to feel a sense of worth..and the better ones understand what it is that makes them feel worthless and do not put that on others..

So why are you a christian? What evidence convinces you that the christian type deity exists?

i am a christian because i choose to be..
what evidence? (ignoring the objective nature of that word..)
um.. i object to the term christian type..i believe god is god..it is man who makes it an ownership issue..

but to answer your question..(have posted this in other thread,so this is the short version)..
the closest i can describe it is when pondering a particular subject, i would hear someone telling me about the same subject without me prompting them, then i would overhear someone else (i dont know them) talking about the same thing, then i would hear about it on the radio..too many times to consider coincidence..

I have seen Lori's evidence. That is : subjective personal religious experience, of a type that has been demonstrated to be inducable by drugs and other means. Clearly not a form of evidence that is scientifically admissable.

there ya go again trying to make it about a definitive answer..
it IS highly subjective..there will never be any objective answers as to god.
if there were, there would be NO need for faith..and faith is the foundation of god.
without faith any relationship will be doomed..not just the one with god..

and im not gonna comment on whether i think lori needs more drugs or not..

So, squirrel, is your evidence better, and what is it?

objective evidence?
better is also subjective..
to answer your question....
(see above for short version..search forum for long version)

 

[Skeptical]

Squirrel

We are all different. You and Lori appear to be happy to accept a form of evidence that I and other more critical thinking people are not. I cannot persuade you to reject unscientific evidence, and go for that which is more rigorous. I trust you will forgive me for saying that I see your approach as being a major flaw, shared by a large part of the human species, in ability to seek out that which is true.

And incidentally, I have never suggested Lori takes drugs. Just that the experience she describes can be induced by drugs. This suggests to me that the experience is internal and false, just as drug induced experiences are false.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Skeptical,

I am agnostic, but leaning towards atheism. The reason for that lean is that I have been agnostic for 46 years, and have still seen nothing that could be called credible evidence for any deity. A positive proof of the existence of deity would be very, very easy, if said deity would bother to cooperate.

Why not look at it another way as well.
Everything is proof of an intelligent agent (God/Diety), and look for positive proof of everything coming from nothing.
"Nothing" should be quite a challenge in and of itself.

All he, she or it has to do is come and see me, show a few miracles, tell me what he/she/it wants, and leave me with a permanent miraculous power, such as flying like superman, and I will follow his/her/its teachings with enthusiasm for the rest of my life. Strangely, it has not happened, and I seriously doubt it ever will.

So you are prepared to accept existence of diety according to your own standard of acceptance?
Isn't that what you think most folks do?

The reason I am not a total atheist is that it is impossible to prove a negative. Hence I cannot disprove the existence of deity. If a deity existed, all-powerful, and decide to hide from humanity, then he/she/it would remain hidden. So we cannot disprove deity.

Sure you can disprove such an existence.
The same way you would deem one to exist.

What is rational? Rationality is being able to recognise what is real. Is the belief behind religion real? Without better evidence, or unless said deity decides to come down and prove him/her/its existence, I have to say that is seriously improbable.

Especially as you've already made up your mind as to what constitutes evidence of proof.
You can decide what you like. Brilliant?

jan.

 

[lightgigantic]

Squirrel

We are all different. You and Lori appear to be happy to accept a form of evidence that I and other more critical thinking people are not.

on the contrary, if you apply critical thinking to your favoured methodology, you would see that its absurd to expect it to be capable to deliver the results.

I mean how much research with the mind and senses would you be required to determine something that lies beyond it?

I cannot persuade you to reject unscientific evidence, and go for that which is more rigorous.

probably no more than you can be persuaded to reject the claim that empiricism has a monopoly on all knowable claims
:shrug:

I trust you will forgive me for saying that I see your approach as being a major flaw, shared by a large part of the human species, in ability to seek out that which is true.

your flaw seems to be extrapolating the tacit "truths" of empiricism to categories that stand outside of the purview of the methodology