Rape and the "Civilized" World

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Regardless of the different moral/value altitudes of risk in comparison to other victim orientated crimes, I think it still stands that the general pattern of risk prevention still applies - namely that a good swath of practical advice is about effecting a precautionary change in the action, attitude or appearance of a potential victim.

Of course.

However, there is the issue of a person's sense of identity. People tend to be intensely revolted by anything that they deem in any way threatens their sense of identity, so they will try to fend off that threat at all costs.
For some people, rape is a crime that affects them at the core of their sense of identity. Hence it is anathema for them to discuss it and its circumstances.


Which is of course isn't likely to happen any time soon ... and explains why people gravitate to more practical methodologies when they are negotiating their personal safety.

Relying on official institutions for one's peace of mind and wellbeing is risky, to say the least.
That doesn't mean that one should pursue vigilante justice. It does mean, though, that it is important to recognize the objective limitations of official institutions, and personally make provisions for cases where the official institutions cannot help one.
 
I think the blame that falls on the victim in case of carelessness is extra. It is not taken or subtracted from the blame that falls on the criminal, they don't "share it".

The blame of rape falls wholly on the rapist, always, victim careless or careful.
the blame that falls on the victim in case of carelessness is more of..reproach, a social "smh" so to say, the kind which is usually directed at problems which could be avoided but were not. this blame is informal and out of care, not as the punishment that falls on the criminal to make an example of him to others.

This is noteworthy.


In contrast, some people work out of the idea that blame is exclusively on one person, either the perpetrator or the victim, but it can never be on both in any way.
 
This is noteworthy.


In contrast, some people work out of the idea that blame is exclusively on one person, either the perpetrator or the victim, but it can never be on both in any way.
So you believe a rape victim shares a portion of the blame for being raped?

Who am I asking, you thought a 3 year old shared responsibility for being sexually molested.
 
Bells in my post quoted above, first line, I said, between parenthesis; (they don't "share it").
And you start your reply to wynn with "So you believe a rape victim "shares" a portion".

Bells, seriously, PLEASE tell me, what is wrong with you?
 
Event Horizon

Scifes said:

Bells in my post quoted above, first line, I said, between parenthesis; (they don't "share it").
And you start your reply to wynn with "So you believe a rape victim "shares" a portion".

Bells, seriously, PLEASE tell me, what is wrong with you?

You're aware that she's responding to Wynn?

Here's the escalation you're actually objecting to:

"In contrast, some people work out of the idea that blame is exclusively on one person, either the perpetrator or the victim, but it can never be on both in any way." (#482)

And it's also the point Bells was responding to.

As to your point, though, it still doesn't work. The fraction of incidents that fall into the "extra carelessness" classification is very nearly a myth. That is, one can certainly construe the circumstances and write the script, but it is somewhat rare.

Indeed, your argument reflects that of Ken Buck, a former prosecutor in Colorado who lost his 2010 bid as the Republican candidate for U.S. Senate. With a confession in hand from the rapist, he chose to not prosecute because he felt the woman was extra careless.

He had a confession, but chose to not prosecute because he felt the woman deserved to be raped.

The problem with your approach is, simply, that it is incongruent unto itself. Functionally, though you might try to disclaim otherwise, the result is that we justify and excuse rapists.
 
Again:

I think the blame that falls on the victim in case of carelessness is extra. It is not taken or subtracted from the blame that falls on the criminal, they don't "share it".

The blame of rape falls wholly on the rapist, always, victim careless or careful.


the blame that falls on the victim in case of carelessness is more of..reproach, a social "smh" so to say, the kind which is usually directed at problems which could be avoided but were not. this blame is informal and out of care,


not as the punishment that falls on the criminal to make an example of him to others.
 
The problem with your approach is, simply, that it is incongruent unto itself. Functionally, though you might try to disclaim otherwise, the result is that we justify and excuse rapists.

The problem is that you maintain that all cases that anyone claims as "rape," are the same.
 
Warp and Woof

Wynn said:

The problem is that you maintain that all cases that anyone claims as "rape," are the same.

And we wait, with bated breath, for your explanation of that one.

Because it is, after all, a curious twist from someone who recommends a mere "ounce of prevention".
 
billvon said:
Recommending precautions against rape "whenever a woman thinks she might be raped" as a condition of being considered a "responsible adult" needs explicit and firmly established limits
Nonsense. It is different for every person.
Whether the advocates of precaution as a condition of being considered a responsible adult have any limits to their advocacy is not nonsense - it is central to the question of whether they are advocates of oppression and misogyny, whether they are in fact operating as rape apologists. The answer to that question seems to be coming into focus.
 
Whether the advocates of precaution as a condition of being considered a responsible adult have any limits to their advocacy is not nonsense - it is central to the question of whether they are advocates of oppression and misogyny, whether they are in fact operating as rape apologists. The answer to that question seems to be coming into focus.
You have told us all that you would do what you could to protect your daughter from rape. So you have clearly have some limits in mind there. What are they?

:shrug:
 
You're aware that she's responding to Wynn?

Here's the escalation you're actually objecting to:

"In contrast, some people work out of the idea that blame is exclusively on one person, either the perpetrator or the victim, but it can never be on both in any way." (#482)

And it's also the point Bells was responding to.
I am surprised. Indeed her reply was in place.
This thread and previous encounters hold many similar instances. I'll wait and see what the future holds. Maybe I was in the wrong always, maybe she fixed herself, maybe she'll repeat it again. Let's wait and see.
As to your point, though, it still doesn't work. The fraction of incidents that fall into the "extra carelessness" classification is very nearly a myth. That is, one can certainly construe the circumstances and write the script, but it is somewhat rare.

Indeed, your argument reflects that of Ken Buck, a former prosecutor in Colorado who lost his 2010 bid as the Republican candidate for U.S. Senate. With a confession in hand from the rapist, he chose to not prosecute because he felt the woman was extra careless.

He had a confession, but chose to not prosecute because he felt the woman deserved to be raped.

The problem with your approach is, simply, that it is incongruent unto itself. Functionally, though you might try to disclaim otherwise, the result is that we justify and excuse rapists.
Very interesting case.
I have a lot to say about it, but considering I'm very new to the "real" depth of "date rape", I think I'll have to think about it more before posting. Thinking out loud is not always a good idea.
But something I came across while mulling it over in my head:
http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2013/01/26/does-playing-hard-to-get-work/
http://bodyodd.nbcnews.com/_news/20...ard-to-get-actually-works-study-confirms?lite

It may be worth noting that I spent most of my not-too-long life in a society which rejects dating altogether. They are simply non-existent. A taboo out of place and hard to commit more than, say, adultery, which I can relate to more(and old fashioned rape).
So yes, date rape is new to me.
Lol, look at it this way, where I come from, if you're dating, you're already a slut* :D.
(* /womanizer)
 
"What I'm saying is a lie"

I mean, come on, be realistic. Compare the scientific findings I linked above and this No means NO stuff. It just doesn't add up.
 
"Read my Ellipse????"

You're aware that she's responding to Wynn?

Here's the escalation you're actually objecting to:

"In contrast, some people work out of the idea that blame is exclusively on one person, either the perpetrator or the victim, but it can never be on both in any way." (#482)

And it's also the point Bells was responding to.

As to your point, though, it still doesn't work. The fraction of incidents that fall into the "extra carelessness" classification is very nearly a myth. That is, one can certainly construe the circumstances and write the script, but it is somewhat rare.

Indeed, your argument reflects that of Ken Buck, a former prosecutor in Colorado who lost his 2010 bid as the Republican candidate for U.S. Senate. With a confession in hand from the rapist, he chose to not prosecute because he felt the woman was extra careless.

He had a confession, but chose to not prosecute because he felt the woman deserved to be raped.

The problem with your approach is, simply, that it is incongruent unto itself. Functionally, though you might try to disclaim otherwise, the result is that we justify and excuse rapists.
Not to rehash a dead thread, but there are no quotes where Ken Buck says that.

Its simply your interpretation of events divorced from legal issues that problematize a successful prosecution.
 
Whether the advocates of precaution as a condition of being considered a responsible adult. . . . .

Yes, taking responsibility for all of one's decisions is a prerequisite for being a responsible adult. That is NOT the same as taking the same precautions as everyone else.

For example - to reduce the risk of being mugged you may decide to never go outside. That's your decision, and making that decision yourself is a prerequisite to being a responsible adult. You may still get mugged, of course; no preventative measure is 100%.

To reduce the risk of being mugged you may decide to learn self defense. That's your decision, and making that decision yourself is a prerequisite to being a responsible adult. You may still get mugged, of course; no preventative measure is 100%.

To reduce the risk of being mugged you may decide to keep your wallet in your front pocket. That's your decision, and making that decision yourself is a prerequisite to being a responsible adult. You may still get mugged, of course; no preventative measure is 100%.

To reduce the risk of being mugged you may decide to never carry cash. That's your decision, and making that decision yourself is a prerequisite to being a responsible adult. You may still get mugged, of course; no preventative measure is 100%.

To reduce the risk of being mugged you may decide to avoid areas where muggings are common. That's your decision, and making that decision yourself is a prerequisite to being a responsible adult. You may still get mugged, of course; no preventative measure is 100%.

To reduce the risk of being mugged you may decide to avoid walking outside during times where muggings are common. That's your decision, and making that decision yourself is a prerequisite to being a responsible adult. You may still get mugged, of course; no preventative measure is 100%.

To reduce the risk of being mugged you may decide to carry a gun. That's your decision, and making that decision yourself is a prerequisite to being a responsible adult. You may still get mugged, of course; no preventative measure is 100%.

None of the above means "the victim is at fault for being mugged."

Are you getting the picture yet? Or do you need a few more examples?
 
Evolving Competition

Scifes said:

It may be worth noting that I spent most of my not-too-long life in a society which rejects dating altogether. They are simply non-existent. A taboo out of place and hard to commit more than, say, adultery, which I can relate to more(and old fashioned rape).
So yes, date rape is new to me.
Lol, look at it this way, where I come from, if you're dating, you're already a slut* :D.
(* /womanizer)

This is an important note; it helps others understand the problem they perceive.

However, with nothing more to go on in #492, I might offer the following perspective.

The question of "playing hard to get" is a relic of an older time that has not yet died a dignified death. It comes from the time when women were expected to be wives and mothers exclusively; they "played hard to get" in order to not simply give over to the first suitor who arrived. This was a time when marriage was utilitarian, not romantic; a woman's place was as a cog in her husband's larger function.

However, the question of "playing hard to get" pertains to the right of courtship, the exclusivity one claims when entering a relationship with another. It does not pertain to the right to get laid.

In the twenty-first century, "playing hard to get" is nothing more than a marketplace demonstration. You can certainly be charming, intelligent, and kindly, but if she's looking forward to spending the rest of her life cleaning up after your lazy ass, well, there are better competitors on the market.

From a more liberal perspective, the issue recently arose when a feminist at an Ivy League institution told female college students they should find a husband now. After the first shockwave passed, the professor offered a radio interview in which she explained she was making an odds-based argument instead of a moral assignation. That is, if a woman intends to marry, she will not have a better marketplace than while she is in college.

We liberals get it, but the basic objection at that point is that a woman should not simply be destined for marriage.

We're in a different world, now. In its former day, courtship was a prelude to marriage. Now it's a recreation. The purpose has changed, and therefore the rules change, too.

In the U.S., and I would imagine Canada, England, Australia, and other such nations, courtship is not restricted to marital prelude.

I would put it this way:

There are times when a sausage-fest (all men) is just fine. That is, six guys gathering to drink beer and watch GSP pound the living shit out of Nick Diaz is one thing. After all, it's not that the women weren't welcome, but rather that so few in our circles like these fights. But the idea that a woman should not attend the party with us because in doing so she might be "consenting" to being raped—one of the implications of this unbounded prevention theory—is simply unacceptable.​

Playing hard to get? It's one thing to say, "If you're going to try to romance me, you're going to have to compete." But it's quite another to say that extends to conjugal privilege.

It is my belief that most men would not enjoy the world they advocate. That is, the open-ended prevention theory is so sub- or un-consciously widespread that if it ever came true, men would be really pissed off at women for treating them that way.

In the end, the only functional solution is to stop presuming male privilege, whether it's because she accepted a date, or because she let him buy her a drink, or because she was walking alone at night, or because she agreed to marry him, or because ... really, what we're down to is two competing assertions.

Either women are human beings entitled to the same rights and expectations as everyone else, or they're not.
 
The problem is that you maintain that all cases that anyone claims as "rape," are the same.
Rape is sex without consent.

Are you saying that sex without consent isn't always rape?

Could you please elaborate on your statement?
 
Yes, taking responsibility for all of one's decisions is a prerequisite for being a responsible adult. That is NOT the same as taking the same precautions as everyone else.

For example - to reduce the risk of being mugged you may decide to never go outside. That's your decision, and making that decision yourself is a prerequisite to being a responsible adult. You may still get mugged, of course; no preventative measure is 100%.

To reduce the risk of being mugged you may decide to learn self defense. That's your decision, and making that decision yourself is a prerequisite to being a responsible adult. You may still get mugged, of course; no preventative measure is 100%.

To reduce the risk of being mugged you may decide to keep your wallet in your front pocket. That's your decision, and making that decision yourself is a prerequisite to being a responsible adult. You may still get mugged, of course; no preventative measure is 100%.

To reduce the risk of being mugged you may decide to never carry cash. That's your decision, and making that decision yourself is a prerequisite to being a responsible adult. You may still get mugged, of course; no preventative measure is 100%.

To reduce the risk of being mugged you may decide to avoid areas where muggings are common. That's your decision, and making that decision yourself is a prerequisite to being a responsible adult. You may still get mugged, of course; no preventative measure is 100%.

To reduce the risk of being mugged you may decide to avoid walking outside during times where muggings are common. That's your decision, and making that decision yourself is a prerequisite to being a responsible adult. You may still get mugged, of course; no preventative measure is 100%.

To reduce the risk of being mugged you may decide to carry a gun. That's your decision, and making that decision yourself is a prerequisite to being a responsible adult. You may still get mugged, of course; no preventative measure is 100%.

None of the above means "the victim is at fault for being mugged."

Are you getting the picture yet? Or do you need a few more examples?

Excellent preventative measures.

Now please tell me what preventative measures you have told your wife to employ against you in case one day you or another male relative rapes her in her own home, for example?

Since the majority of rapes are intimacy rapes, would you expect your wife or girlfriend or partner, to take self defense classes so she can take preventative measures against you? After all, if she is a responsible adult, then she, following your examples, would view you as a potential rapist and she would be taking every step imaginable to ensure she prevents you from raping her. Just in case. Do you feel comfortable with the knowledge that your wife is learning self defense just in case one night you can't take no for an answer? Does it please you?

Because preventative measures would mean that women would have to view all the men in their lives as potential rapists and taking all requisite precautions to ensure they do not become a victim.
 
Because preventative measures would mean that women would have to view all the men in their lives as potential rapists and taking all requisite precautions to ensure they do not become a victim.
Once again, the only one working with "men" as a category of hazard is you ..... and anyone who comes within walking distance of these seminars (which apparently excludes you, since, for some funny reason, you can't even touch their websites with your eyeballs) can tell you that the models of risk assessment and management work with more effective (aka "realistic") models for risk assessment and management ...

IOW persons coming out from these seminars, again, for some funny reason, don't come out as Charlie's Angels type of misandrists and/or androphobes, which, according to you, is the only default possibility tenable (although there are good arguments for individuals who have ineffective risk assessment/management strategies to default to misandry and/or androphobia)

:scratchin:
 
wynn said:
The problem is that you maintain that all cases that anyone claims as "rape," are the same.

And we wait, with bated breath, for your explanation of that one.

Because it is, after all, a curious twist from someone who recommends a mere "ounce of prevention".

Rape is sex without consent.

Are you saying that sex without consent isn't always rape?

Could you please elaborate on your statement?

Do you really believe that, for example
a case where two people get drunk, have sex, and then a few days later, one decides he or she didn't really want it and presses charge for rape against the other person,
is the same as when
a group of people kidnaps a person, takes them to another location, and abuses them
- ?
 
So you believe a rape victim shares a portion of the blame for being raped?

Who am I asking, you thought a 3 year old shared responsibility for being sexually molested.

Even toddlers can be taught some preventative measures and can act accordingly.
It is possible to teach a 2-year old not to touch a hot stowe plate, for example, and to keep some distance toward strangers.


Have you told your children, even before they could walk and talk well, that they should not eat this, or not touch that?
Once they could walk, have you ever told them not to go to this or that place?
Have you ever told them not to accept candy from strangers?


If you have done that,
have you done it for the sake of blaming them, for the sake of finding fault with them, for the sake of pointing out that they are bad persons,

or have you told them that in the hopes to protect them from harm,
and in the hopes of teaching them to do everything in their power to protect themselves from harm?
 
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