Questions about evolution

If we can't imagine them, then that would be a rather difficult question to answer, wouldn't it? :) Still, I don't find that hypothesis remarkable. We discovered new ones in the last 100 years. There could easily be a few more that we haven't found yet. We still haven't been able to find a relationship between gravity and the other three fundamental forces; there might be a new law lurking in there. Ditto for string theory, or whatever is taking its place. Which I suppose will include gravity, won't it?

Yup, I was denying.. just curious to see whether he would come up with some :D
 
The laws of thermodynamics and other physical laws dictate how chemicals interact with one another. We can predict what the outcome will be, based on those laws, when we mix two substances together. We can predict the products of the reactions. All chemicals, even in biological systems, obey these laws. So, I'll state again: Chemistry is not random.

I never said that chemistry was random..
But what dictates 'the laws of thermodynamics and other physical laws' ? And do we know exactly how the laws of thermodynamics and other physical laws dictate the specific characteristics of the various elements ? I don't think so :)
 
If we didn't know how the laws of thermodynamics dicate how atoms and molecules will interact with one another, we wouldn't be able to predict the outcome of a chemical reaction. But we can make those predictions, so I'd say we have a pretty good understanding of how to apply the laws of thermodynamics to chemical systems.
 
If we didn't know how the laws of thermodynamics dicate how atoms and molecules will interact with one another, we wouldn't be able to predict the outcome of a chemical reaction. But we can make those predictions, so I'd say we have a pretty good understanding of how to apply the laws of thermodynamics to chemical systems.

Ok, so how did this laws come into existence ? Was their existence painstakingly planned and plotted ?
 
What are you getting at, Enmos. I don't want to play semantic word games, so if you have a point just be direct and make it already.
 
“ Originally Posted by Cyperium
1: How long - approximately - does it take for an organ of average complexity to evolve from its simplest form? ”

Don't know.
Ok.


“ Originally Posted by Cyperium
2a: The environment is complex, sometimes more variables than one need to be addressed so that the creature can continue living the way it has done before, what is the chances that a creature will evolve in two ways simultaneously? ”

100%
But how could we know that though? Because of the end result that many organs have evolved?

For an organ to be evolved in two ways simultaneously both successful adaptations must have survived to the next generation.

I guess it depends on how gradual the adaptation is, the bigger steps the less chance, so for something to evolve in two ways simultaneously it would need to evolve in smaller steps (less changes).


“ Originally Posted by Cyperium
2b: I guess that the evolution of the brain might be one of the solutions to multiple survival scenarios, does that mean that we will eventually be the only species left as we have the highest survival chance because of the way we can adapt? ”

Nope, we're dependent on a wide variety of species to survive (bacteria, plants, mammals, you name it). We are however, the best chance for life on Earth to survive past the death of our planet.
Ok, I guess we could say that we have greater chance of survival than most animals, but of course we would die if we were the only ones left.

Still, many species are at risk of extinction because of us - simply because they can't adapt as quickly to the changing environment, or because they can't breed as quickly as we kill them off.


“ Originally Posted by Cyperium
2c: Were other species more abundant before, so that we have decreased their chances of surviving a environmental change? (as we constantly shoot animals so that they are kept at a constant rate - even kill insects that are deemed a threat to us) ”

Yes.
Ok.


“ Originally Posted by Cyperium
2d: How many of a species is needed for evolution to occur - generally? ”

Don't know, but I'll speculate one.
Yeah, I think so too.


“ Originally Posted by Cyperium
2e: Could we become a concurrent to evolution of other species, as we will build tools and keep a species alive if they were to be threatened by environmental change? ”

Yes.
Ok. I think that is a bad thing, cause sooner or later there will be some kind of environmental change that they just are too few to adapt to.


“ Originally Posted by Cyperium
3: If I were evolution then the first thing I would change - if there were a environmental change - would be what attracts females (or what attracts males) so that the attraction would lead evolution towards the desired change. Could that be a quick fix in reality? (I would think that it would need less generations to complete the change, than would it not be directed) ”

Males and females are often attracted to the opposite sex that is surviving the best in the present environment and therefore more likely to pass on the better traits.
Yes, that's right. In any species you can think of, is there any attractions to things that isn't right now in the current environment, but rather seems to be an attraction to features that would be fit for a different environment? Like a preparation?

“ Originally Posted by Cyperium
ok, I'll rephrase the question; what is the number of individuals of a species required to survive a environmental change if the common individual have traits that it would not survive as it is. Or rather; what is the odds for a species to survive a fatal environmental change? ”

Not good. Far more that 99% of species that have ever lived are extinct.
Ok, I guess that it would be hard to calculate or even guess how many of a species that would be needed to come at odds with that...


“ Also, how many would have to survive that change in order to successfully continue their existence? ”

Not too many. For example, I believe that cheetahs are thought to have gone through a bottleneck at one stage, with perhaps only 20 or so individuals living at one particular time.
Ok, interesting.
 
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It varies. Random mutation is random, and natural selection can occur rapidly or slowly depending on the environment. Evolution through natural selection is not a process to get you from simple to complex, it is a process that gets from not well adapted to reasonably well adapted. Sometimes complexity cobnfers an advantage and is perpetuated, sometimes it is a disadvantage and the complex line dies out.

I point out that for 75% of the history of life on Earth, only single celled organisms existed, and they are still by far the most successful lifeforms by any biological measure.
What change in environment would be needed for single cell organisms to become multicellular? Or if it happens by chance alone then how complex is the process in which the multicellular organisms duplicates? (cause the most simple multicellular organisms surely doesn't have to mate? - and if it does have to mate, then how many cells are the minimum for that?)


Evolution is constant and is not confined to one trait at a time. But your question is flawed. If the environment changes so that an organism cannot live the way it has in the past, then evolution does not "compensate" sio that it can go back to doing things the way it used to. Evolution does not care about the way things used to be done or the form and function a species had in the past. if the environment changes so that a lifestyle or feature is now maladaptive, those features will disappear and the organism will either adapt to a new way of living that works with the new environment or die out.
I didn't think evolution would somehow compensate to go back to how things were before - even if I do think that the former state of an organ would be more easily accessed than a totally new state, as much of the information for the former state probably still is available in the DNA.


No. Evolution of the human brain is an adaptation to be sure, but it is not the end all be all adaptation that make us the best survivor. The brain is expensive, it uses up a huge number of calories per day and requires difficult to obtain protein to grow and sustain it. In a severe environmental cataclysm, there's good reason to believe that the large thinking brain would be a disadvantage because it is a resource hog.
That is; if the intelligence we have doesn't solve the problem, in which evolution wouldn't be needed, if we have enough time to solve the problem, then the brain is superior, but if we don't have enough time, so that many people dies and only a few is left, then we probably don't have the "manpower" to solve the problems ourselves, and the brain wouldn't be needed as much.

Even assuming that the environment never changes it is unlikely that we'd become the only species left in any reasonable time frame. We eat other species opf plants and animals. It is hardly reasonable for any animal to allow a Soylent Green situation to develop when it can foresee the trouble in advance.

Much like wolves and mountain lions (superior killing machines) did not come to kill off all the herbivores in North America, though, we would not be able to entirely destroy our food supply before that fact negatively impacted our own numbers. As with a predator-prey interaction, one can expect a certain dynamic equilibrium to form.
Hmmm, I agree.



Yes, certain other species were more abundant in the past. Mountain lions and wolves to return to those. By thinning their numbers we have made it less likely their populations would survive a serious environmental change. Insects are harder to judge. Those that feed off humans are (like roaches) far more common that they were in the state of nature). Roaches, despite out trying to kill them, thrive more than ever in the human fiulled world because they can live off our detritus.
Do you think it's reasonable to think that we will at one time create a situation where it is beneficial for all to "live together" in symbiosis? Or that a situation will occur in other ways in which we all live in symbiosis?



There is no number. A single organism that reproduces asexually can evolve For those who believe that life has a chemical origin likely evolution started with chemical evolution, before there were any real "species".
Can you elaborate in which form a chemical could evolve? ...and for what reason? What would be the constraints?



I do not follow. But look, evolution is not conscious it does not think or hope or design or plan or want. Anything that alters the mix of factors that make to reproductive success can affect evolution, including mankind's actions. Natural selection no more wants to use one species to change another or wants to change a species than a river wants to make rough stones smooth or gravity wants to make ripe apples fall.
I didn't mean to imply that I thought evolution thought of us as a concurrent, but that we in fact were a concurrent to other species adaptation to the environment, by helping them (making the gap for transitional environmental change larger and larger - and harder to overcome).



Again, desire is irrelevant. Evolution was not trying to produce humans, humans are simply what happens to have resulted from evolution. Evolution also has no plan for what we will evolve into. That too will be just something that happens and it is something that could happen in millions of ways. We could all evolve back into isingle celled organisms. It is unlikely, but evolution doesn't care.
Even though evolution "doesn't care", life is still self-sustaining, and if there were a way to know what way to adapt or what pieces of the DNA to make weaker or stronger in order for them to adapt more easily to a changing environment because those pieces might produce results that fit better whatsoever the change might be then that is a preferred way and this is the kind of changes that would hard for us to see as they are more subtle. The attraction between males and females is also one place to make changes if to prepare for future adaptations.

Are we talking about evolution or selective breeding ?
Evolution. Millions of years of evolution.


The fact that you called them rules. Rules are there to keep entities from moving beyond arbitrary boundaries i.e. rules can be violated by definition.
The laws of nature cannot be violated.
Well, let's call them principles then.


Such as ?
I already gave an example. The weaker parts of the DNA are more easily changed, in a long timescale it would be beneficial for a lifeform to relate the DNA that are more easily changed to the adaptations that would be needed for environmental change, even if that weakness is subtle, there could also be repair processes that would solve known errors (I know there is such processes already) that changes might produce in order to lead it to a beneficial change.
 
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But how could we know that though? Because of the end result that many organs have evolved?

For an organ to be evolved in two ways simultaneously both successful adaptations must have survived to the next generation.

I guess it depends on how gradual the adaptation is, the bigger steps the less chance, so for something to evolve in two ways simultaneously it would need to evolve in smaller steps (less changes).

An example would be that we can induce resistance to multiple drugs at once in viruses. An organ example would be eyes and ears. They used to be the same organ.

Ok, I guess we could say that we have greater chance of survival than most animals, but of course we would die if we were the only ones left.

Still, many species are at risk of extinction because of us - simply because they can't adapt as quickly to the changing environment, or because they can't breed as quickly as we kill them off.

Quite correct.

Ok. I think that is a bad thing, cause sooner or later there will be some kind of environmental change that they just are too few to adapt to.

That is a distinct possibility.

Yes, that's right. In any species you can think of, is there any attractions to things that isn't right now in the current environment, but rather seems to be an attraction to features that would be fit for a different environment? Like a preparation?

You bet. That's where many sexual fetishes come from.
 
What are you getting at, Enmos. I don't want to play semantic word games, so if you have a point just be direct and make it already.

Roll a dice. The dice obeys to all the laws of nature but the result is still dictated by chance. Right ?
 
Roll a dice. The dice obeys to all the laws of nature but the result is still dictated by chance. Right ?
Actually, there is no such thing as chance :) the result is what happens after "the dice obeys to all the laws of nature".

There could be chance in the quantum way of things, which seems to have totally different laws from what we are used to.
 
Foot fetish is the most popular one on Earth :).
I guess so :), I can somewhat understand why people would be interested in bare feet, but shoes? There's people out there that collect them (!), I guess some things are best left unexplained :)
 
Declaring 'nature has laws' implies a higher power.

case closed.
Sorry, not that simple.

What about this one, "everything exists, because nothing cannot exist"?

Maybe the universe had a start, but nothing did never ever exist.

Nothing never prevailed, but still there was a start...hmmm...still this is would be a different thread though.
 
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