Relax, you don't have to worry about stressed out lab workers here, this is free thought land, even yours.
Question on Ice
- Thread starter Gerhard Kemmerer
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Relax, you don't have to worry about stressed out lab workers here, this is free thought land, even yours.
I believe there is a special case regarding water... but I may be wrong.
Typical Quack tactic: Make assumptions based on no data, reach the wrong conclusion and act smug.
I have in fact done the experiment. Pretty simple, take 2 glasses of water one hot and one cold and put them outside in winter and monitor - the colder glass repeatedly froze first.
Now there are instances where the hotter water will freeze first as is discussd here: Hot or Cold
The question is poorly stated. It's like asking, "Why are women taller than men?"
A better start would be, "Under what conditions do women grow taller than men?" or, "Under what conditions does hot water freeze faster than cold?"
Then the next step would be to propose tests to answer the question.
Sounds like, game, set, match, to me.
well it is nice to see some discussion for a change... thanks Origin...
All very good comments.
So it seems that the conditions are variable enough to say that hot water does not freeze faster.
The rates of change in the water molecules, in relation to temperature, would not be drawn in a perfectly straight line on the graph, but there will be be curves and even parabolic curves, with small platforms, showing when molecules resist change.
This means that in some conditions hot water will freeze quicker. But note in the article refered to in Origin's post, that water below a certain temperature may not freeze as quickly as expected.
As a whole the argument is solved in understanding that molecules are dynamic and the speed of changes in behaviour has a lot to do with results, and once atoms find a place where there is little demand on change, they prefer not to be changed.
In the case of the hot water, they are unsettled and stimulated and more likely to respond to changes.
If they are too cold they will readily absorb heat.
Two conditions active with heat and active with cold.
Would anyone say that the cold state of atoms is less energetic, or has less energy than the hot state?
The immediate answer is the heated atoms have more energy, but do they, and is a cold atom just as involved with using energy?
So it seems that the conditions are variable enough to say that hot water does not freeze faster.
The rates of change in the water molecules, in relation to temperature, would not be drawn in a perfectly straight line on the graph, but there will be be curves and even parabolic curves, with small platforms, showing when molecules resist change.
This means that in some conditions hot water will freeze quicker. But note in the article refered to in Origin's post, that water below a certain temperature may not freeze as quickly as expected.
As a whole the argument is solved in understanding that molecules are dynamic and the speed of changes in behaviour has a lot to do with results, and once atoms find a place where there is little demand on change, they prefer not to be changed.
In the case of the hot water, they are unsettled and stimulated and more likely to respond to changes.
If they are too cold they will readily absorb heat.
Two conditions active with heat and active with cold.
Would anyone say that the cold state of atoms is less energetic, or has less energy than the hot state?
The immediate answer is the heated atoms have more energy, but do they, and is a cold atom just as involved with using energy?
Does a heated atom have more energy than a cold one?
Yes. Temperature is a measure of the average translational kenetic energy of the atoms/molecules in a substance.
Gerhard:
Why do you put so much stock in Origin's opinions and so little in other people's?
Why do you regard Origin as the final authority on science or skepticism?
Why do you put so much stock in Origin's opinions and so little in other people's?
Why do you regard Origin as the final authority on science or skepticism?
I am a bit baffled by that too.
Additionally, what gave you the impression that I think this:
so I'll stick to the most skeptical idea, of Origin, and say that it cannot be proven and science has no answer therefore nobody can know or should know, and they are mental if they claim to.
I thought the article from SciAm explained things pretty well.
Just keep in mind that you're talking about a proven (by his own words) rock-solid nut case here. He doesn't live on the same planet with the rest of us. <shrug>
My reply to be skeptical went in support with the first answer Origin gave - that hot water does not freeze quicker.
According to other articles, that is not the case, but it depends on conditions, allowing both results.
And in the remark that nobody can know and is considered a NUT if they say anything contrary to 'science' was to show what attitudes I am up against if I don't stick with the most conservative and skeptical opinion.
I can count on dear Origin to take that road...I think his views represent that class.
I was a bit unfair to link my comment right after his name though,
I liked his post and article.
well maybe Origin can answer why he posted the above...?
So temperature is a measurement of energy.
There can be relationships of energy, such as magnetism and heat.
A magnet will often lose its magnetism when heated, and increase its magnetism when cooled.
Can magnetism be a measure of energy, and if so does that mean that the cold molecules are as energised as the hot?
That's fine, his article is all that's needed to start. It does not really matter what the answer is, but we hope to find out why it can produce both results under different conditions, which has already been answered in part by Origin's post and following posts by others, except for James and Readonly who are busy correcting nuts.
OnlyMe has worked out an important relationship between available energy in hot molecules, and the demand in cold molecular behaviour. Very close. But we'll get to the why and that will unlock knowledge about all types of elemental molecules etc.
OnlyMe, was tossing out a wild uninformed guess, attempting to describe what some heated water might have in common with frozen water. If it were ever proven to have been even marginally close to what is "really" taking place, it would have been purely by accident.