question about astral travel

Theoryofrelativity said:
R, some people will TELL you what the view is outside your window when they have never seen it, because that is what their BOOK has told them to expect. Q is one of those, hence any post describing a view not in his BOOK (his belief) he will deem it ..imagination.

The veiw outside anyones window would reveal the appearance of a flat earth, and by not reading at least some books, one might be inclined to continue believing such.

Confutatis however reguarly makes posts that make sense, and is intelligent so I'd be more inclined to listen to his reply.

Of course, you're both theists, who appeal to the invisible on grounds for a reality.

If you are afraid of reactions here, then you can always continue the discussion in pm or on msn. Sci Forums isn't the be all and end all of every conversation.

I humbly apologize for not meeting your expectations to providing for you the level of fantasy you're so amply accustomed.
 
R, some people will TELL you what the view is outside your window when they have never seen it, because that is what their BOOK has told them to expect. Q is one of those

This is actually relevant to the whole "I'm being trolled by (Q)" thing as well as the nature of the responses rj has received. (Q) provides a rational and reasoned response, but it doesn't conform to the beliefs of significance-junkies and mystery-mongers who look for mysticism everywhere in their lives and are "more inclined to listen" to those that agree with that hokey nonsense. But you can't go around bitching and crying about being "trolled" when you so obviously needle the man with your sillyness. Its as if you have a crush on the guy or something.

There is no evidence that there are any "souls" that can detach themselves from our bodies or minds. Nor is there any reason to think that such "souls" can enter another body. This is, however, a much overused theme of science fiction and fantasy as well as horror genres. And there *is* evidence for people becoming deluded based upon fictional themes and motifs. Mind you, delusion isn't cause for being upset, we all become deluded from time to time and some would argue that a good book or movie allows us to drop our disbelief -at least temporarily- so that we can allow for a certain bit of delusion. This makes fiction all the more enjoyable.

But at the end of the day, souls entering bodies really is a fantasy and has no basis in reality.
 
thanks for all your replies.
Theoryofrelativity: I don't know what pm or msn(micrsoft network?) are but I am posting in other forums.

Q's responses are similar to the responses I have gotten from
others.One thing I am sure of is that this was an encounter with something not me, though it did happen to me and I somehow allowed it. What it was is not clear to me and nothing I have ever experienced in my life was like it even in a small way. the whole experience lasted roughly 16 hours.

I had no belief in the spiritual world or demons before this happened. I was mildly interested in ghosts and e.t's on the level of "wow wouldn't that be something if it were true-it should be investigated to see what's behind it all."
I believed in a christian God but was not religous or belong to any church. I guess this history is not really important but if I read my posts are listen to myself I think it sounds fantastic and unbelievable, too!
I'll tell you what Q-the reality we live in may be quite a bit different and complex than you or I imagine. I pray alot more now since this happened and give thanks before I eat my meals.
My question remains: could this be a human attack? From the responses I have gotten here and elsewhere it seems llike no one is really sure. People talk of psychic(sp) attacks and summoning demons and this is the avenue I am pursuing now. Not believing or saying that's what happened but just looking into it.
I could talk alot or forever about what happened to me. The details aren't important and won't convince anyone. I didn't learn any fundamental truths about the universe or come away enlightened, honestly the whole experience left me feeling like I had been used. All I have to say is watch your back, especially if your spirits are low. I don't think a person can be prepared for something like this but I do believe that I was partly responsible for it happening, as I should have been strong enough or smart enough to stop it. This "spirit" had no regard for human life. Regardless of what this was I'm more concerned about my soul than ever and do believe that the soul is actually a part of god or a gift from God that you must nourish and protect.
You know it dosen't really matter what it(the spirit) was, really, or if anyone believes me. Who cares what it was. Every description of it sounds too fantastic. If you don't believe in an existence outside of this fraqile body of flesh and blood you are in for a huge surprise. I'm still reeling from the implications-and trying to sort it out, if that is possible.
 
skinwalker- It sounds ridiculous when people quote back to me what I have posted-so I understand your disbelief. To say this "soul" entered my body isn't exactly right. lets call it an "entity" to give it a name. It occupied the same space as my body and if I moved suddenly it was uncomfortable for it. So it wasn't merged with me but was definately connected.
 
You think "entity" makes it sound more believable? Call it an "entity" or a "soul." Either way, there is no apparent such thing.
 
What's that song 'you're living in a box...living in a cardboard box.....'

R these guys live in boxes, they feel safe there. Let them have their fantasy it keeps them happy, it's a safe and cosy 'belief' system.

Meanwhile pm = private messaging, msn is online chat.
 
rj2631r6 said:
Q's responses are similar to the responses I have gotten from
others.

And, it appears you ignored those responses, too. Again, you don't want responses, you just want someone to fuel your beliefs.

And look, ToR is perched like a vulture to do just that and monger your mystery today!
 
SkinWalker said:
You think "entity" makes it sound more believable? Call it an "entity" or a "soul." Either way, there is no apparent such thing.

Why is it impossible for a person to have the experience of another person entering their body? Call it "delusion", call it "possession", exactly what do you add by claiming such experiences are not possible simply because you never had them?
 
If you would read closely and notice the structure and syntax of the sentence, I implied that such things are not apparently possible by stating "there is no apparent such thing."

Apparent being the operative word. If such things were apparent, they would be measurable and quantitative. As it is, they exist only in the minds of a few believers. Believers that, more than likely, have experience one or more psychological events that perhaps medication can assist with.

What was described was mild schizophrenia. You can call it "souls," "entities," or "visitations," but the reality is that there are no such things as possessions, despite the silly religious superstitions that perpetuate such nonsense. If there are, point us all to the peer-reviewed study that explains in detail how these "possessions" work.
 
SkinWalker said:
You can call it "souls," "entities," or "visitations," but the reality is that there are no such things as possessions

There is such a thing as the experience of being possessed, and it can happen to anyone. It's not something you can provoke, control, or prevent. And it's not "mild schezophrenia" anymore than having dreams is psychosis.

This is actually pathetic. If 90% of the people never dreamt, they would deny the claims of the other 10% who do and would pat on each other's backs for not being superstitious. Still it would be just intellectual arrogance caused by ignorance.

... despite the silly religious superstitions that perpetuate such nonsense. If there are, point us all to the peer-reviewed study that explains in detail how these "possessions" work.

I cannot point you to peer-reviewed nonsense, but I can point you to a lot of people who know more about life than a bunch of snobs locked up in ivory towers. There's more to life than science can tell you, in case you don't know.
 
I appreciate everyones point of view on this. All I can say is that the experience made a believer out of me. Is it so hard to believe, afterall? We are more than a combination of carbon and chemicals? that's really all I believe now and I pray to God to show me the way to a better understanding.
For my mind to snap as badly as it would have had to to create this illusion, I don't think I would be able to function now. again nothing before or since has even come close. I think I am beating a deadhorse as really I'm looking for information about incarnate spirits. And no I am not fueling a fantasy but am seeking knowledge of the esoteric. But, I guess, If I look hard enough, I will validate any crazy belief. Evenstill I need to look into the possibilities and then come to a conclusion.

Skinwalker-that's exactly what I want a peer reviewed explanation on how these possessions work.
 
Last edited:
Peer reviewed studies exist and are available, two that I have just at my desk are Freed & Freed (1964) and Ward & Beaubrun (1980). Both of these studies reach similar conclusions and were conducted independently of each other and in different hemispheres of the globe.

The both conluded that "demon possession" is a social label applied to individuals that experience stress or mental disorders that range from anxiety to schizophrenia. Both studies concluded that the "possessed" individual gained advantages because of the experiences such as being the center of attention; escaping unpleasant situations -even if temporarily; and dimination of guilt or responsibility (their behavior was blamed on the "demon"). Neither study found that there was any reason to assume that an actual "demon" possessed the individuals involved.

@Confusatus

I don't expect intelligent responses that are dignified with critical thought from those that have their beliefs challenged. Experience has shown me that, when faced with rational thought and inquiry, the believer (be it in religious superstition, demons, ghosts, ufos, esp, etc) will respond with much the same "I'm right because you're wrong" attitude. The bottom line is, you cannot point to any peer-reviewed validation for "demon possession" because it is a concept that exists only in the fabricated reality of those that believe in it. Far more rational explanations are arrived at whenever those that claim to be afflicted are examined. Explanations that very often find themselves cured with therapy or medication.

Reference

Freed, Stanley A., and Freed, Ruth S. (1964). Spirit Possession as Illness in a North Indian Village. Ethnology, 3(2), 152-171.

Ward, Colleen A., and Beaubrun, Michael H. (1980). The Psychodynamics of Demon Possession. Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion, 19(2), 201-208.
 
SkinWalker said:
I don't expect intelligent responses that are dignified with critical thought from those that have their beliefs challenged.

None of my beliefs have been challenged by your posts, simply because you misunderstood everything I said. I have not made a single claim that spirits exist or that they explain the subjective experience of possession.

Experience has shown me that, when faced with rational thought and inquiry, the believer (be it in religious superstition, demons, ghosts, ufos, esp, etc) will respond with much the same "I'm right because you're wrong" attitude.

How could I have said you were wrong when you didn't even address my points?

The bottom line is, you cannot point to any peer-reviewed validation for "demon possession" because it is a concept that exists only in the fabricated reality of those that believe in it.

Just look at your own reply. Whoever said anything about demons? You are reading stuff that was never written, because you assume anyone wanting to discuss a subject outside of a scientific framework must necessarily be a superstitious fool.

Far more rational explanations are arrived at whenever those that claim to be afflicted are examined.

If you had the decency of reading my posts, you wouldn't say such beside-the-point nonsense. If you find yourself afflicted with a mental disorder, the last thing you'd care about would be a rational explanation. Telling schizophrenics that there's a rational explanation for their hallucinations doesn't make them go away or even seem less real.

I know your position. It's the position of someone who doesn't understand what he is talking about, for the simple fact that you never experienced it. It's very easy to understand schizophrenia if you're not schizophrenic. Your explanations don't have to convince the mentally ill, they only have to convince your academic peers.

Explanations that very often find themselves cured with therapy or medication.

It is true that medication often helps people recover from mental disorders, I have not even hinted otherwise and have no idea why you bring it up. I myself am epileptic, and if it weren't for medication I would be having seizures on a daily basis. Still, I know things about epilepsy which my doctor cannot possibly know, except perhaps if he is also epileptic. For instance, when I recover from a seizure I have this overwhelming sense of foreboding, as if the world were about to end in the next few hours. I know the feeling is unreal, and that has nothing to do with the existence of peer-reviewed literature proving that the world is not going to end in the next few hours. But an argument like yours, that my feeling of foreboding is irrational, is arrogant and completely beside the point.

You probably won't understand any of this, as usual.
 
Confutatis said:
None of my beliefs have been challenged by your posts, simply because you misunderstood everything I said. I have not made a single claim that spirits exist or that they explain the subjective experience of possession.

You said, "There is such a thing as the experience of being possessed, and it can happen to anyone. It's not something you can provoke, control, or prevent. And it's not "mild schezophrenia" anymore than having dreams is psychosis."

If it isn't "spirits" or "demons," what are you alleging causes the "possession?"

Confutatis said:
How could I have said you were wrong when you didn't even address my points?

You made no points other than simple-minded, anti-science rant. None of your "points" had any real basis for criticism since they were unfounded. You spoke of "ivory towers" and hypothesized that skeptics would not believe in dreams if not for the prevalence of them, as if REM isn't something that can be observed through both instrumentation and by direct observation. You asked why is it impossible to have the experience of "another person entering their body?" As if this were something that could be possible. The question to answer first would be how could someone else possibly do such a thing. Is there a zipper running down your back that allows it to happen? If so, perhaps it *is* possible. Give us a mechanism that might work other than your imagination and lets engage in a real intellectual discussion. Otherwise, you're simply talking out of your ass, to use an idiom.

Confutatis said:
Just look at your own reply. Whoever said anything about demons?

rj2631r6 did, and this is what the discussion was about.

Confutatis said:
You are reading stuff that was never written, because you assume anyone wanting to discuss a subject outside of a scientific framework must necessarily be a superstitious fool.

The fool present in this thread is evident. Your anti-science rhetoric doesn't wash and your attempts at rebuttal are poorly informed. Perhaps you should read the posts other than yours and mine and you might realize that the topic of "demons" was mentioned first by rj2631r6, who stated, "I had no belief in the spiritual world or demons before this happened."
 
SkinWalker said:
You said, "There is such a thing as the experience of being possessed, and it can happen to anyone. It's not something you can provoke, control, or prevent. And it's not "mild schezophrenia" anymore than having dreams is psychosis."

If it isn't "spirits" or "demons," what are you alleging causes the "possession?"

SW, your arguments are tiresome, so I'll just reply with a quote from rj2631r6:

rj2631r6 said:
Who cares what it was?

He's not asking for explanations, he just wants to share his experience. You can learn from it, you can ignore it. Calling him crazy only shows ignorance on your part. If the subject makes you uncomfortable, ignore the thread. Your ignorance of the subject is not adding anything to the discussion, at least as far as I'm concerned.

And this is all I have to say. Now throw your final barrage of insults and let us leave it at that.
 
Confutatis said:
He's not asking for explanations, he just wants to share his experience.

Uh, yes he is asking for explanations, can't you read?

But, he is asking for explanations that fit his beliefs, not actual explanations, so in that regard, he'll find those answers in his or your imagination.
 
Confutatis said:
He's not asking for explanations, he just wants to share his experience. You can learn from it, you can ignore it. Calling him crazy only shows ignorance on your part. If the subject makes you uncomfortable, ignore the thread. Your ignorance of the subject is not adding anything to the discussion, at least as far as I'm concerned.

I certainly did not use the derisive term "crazy" in my characterization of the OP and I resent the fact that you would attribute those words to me. I offered some of the possibilities of what the OP may have been experiencing. Whether or not there is a psychological issue or mental imbalance of chemistry is not for me to diagnose and I certainly would not characterize someone of being "crazy" even if they were schizophrenic or delusional. Both are very real conditions that are far more common than most people realize, something that I learned after having worked in the Juvenile Justice industry for the better part of a decade.

But you think I find the subject "uncomfortable?" Not at all. I find this subject fascinating, since it relates to human belief and the motivations behind it. And I'm not just talking about the OP's beliefs, but yours as well. It fascinates me the steps that apparent anti-science types like yourself will take to defend the speculations of mysticism of others. You clearly indicated that you believed "spirits," "demons," or some other un-named entity can "possess" flesh and blood people. I challenged this assertion and ask you to not only identify what does the possession, but to also qualify the assertion with how it occurs.

Instead, you respond with a new assertion that I'm ignorant of the subject and to "ignore the thread!" What bullshit! Moreover, you assert that I've directed a "barrage of insults" at you! More bullshit! Admit it... you can't answer my questions.

Oh... wait. You did:

Confutatis said:
And this is all I have to say. Now throw your final barrage of insults and let us leave it at that.

If you call what I've written a "barrage of insults," I certainly feel sorry for you. But at least you were honest enough to admit you had nothing to say after all.
 
Q, you are right-I would like to be able to explain this event. I came here seeking information on the paranormal, not to find out that I am crazy. I can get that answer from anyone who will listen to me. I do appreciate your posts and do not wish argue with you. The only post I directly asked for an explanation was on peer review of possession, but I do believe you could infer that I was looking for an explanation on other posts. That is my ultimate goal, to explain this event, but not the intent of my question.
Yes I would like someones answer to conform to the belief of the paranormal. that is what I am investigating. Is that going to be my ultimate decision as to what happened, I don't know. I know I have mentioned demons and god with confiction along with saying "i'm a believer now" and that was inappropriate and not constructive and really doesn't help in my investigation.
Unfortunately this event was very powerful and I can't dismiss the paranormal or God easily like I could have before, so it shows up in my posts.
So I will ask a question about split personalities. Do they coinhabit the mind? Or do they switch off? My split was thinking on it's own making decisions in the present for me about a future i was unaware of. Does that sound split?
I do not blame my actions on anyone but me during this event. I was in total control the whole time. I was being prodded and coerced by my "split" but at any time could have acted rationally, but was so taken by the experience, I didn't. At one point my split wanted me do to something particularly damaging to another person, and I did not do it. but in general I believed everything that my split wanted me to believe, and did whatever they said-no matter how crazy or with complete disregard for life or reason.
So no I am not blaming a demon for my actions or anyone/anything else.
It's not like I snapped. It was like a part was awakened. It was clever, deceptive, destructive, persuasive, vain and impetuous. No it wasn't my ex. So, q and others, if it was me I am somewhere south of deep shit and apparently lost looking for directions. That is why I would like to see if possibly, an external force acted on me. Again, I'm not denying resonsibility, I was an am responsible for my actions, but is it so hard to believe that there are forces in our universe that we may not be aware of? Is it wrong to investigate it? should I only take a pill and talk it out with a therapist about psychotic behavior? Maybe by understanding the paranormal I will be better prepared if this happens again, regardless of it's causes.
 
I thought it might be important that along with now being interested in the paranormal, I also now have a great deal of empathy with people with mental disorders. I know now what it feels like to lose control of your mind and reasoning capabilities. I can assure you it is a humbling experience, and one where you, at least in my case, can see it happening yet being out of control having relinquished control. In my case one part of me was sane, the other insane, co-inhabiting my body. Why there has to be all the hallucinations to go along with it is very mysterious, I think.
 
rj2631r6, let me add that in no way are (Q) and I trying to deride or belittle you. There is undoubtedly and edge to our "posting styles" with regard to myster-mongers and significance-junkies who flock to threads like this one with an eagerness that is predictable in nature.

But it's clear that you experienced something. What it was, isn't clear, least of all to anyone responding to you in this thread. One of my favorite people in the world has a mild form of schizophrenia -nothing as extreme as that portrayed in the book and movie A Beautiful Mind, but significant to him nonetheless. When he's consistent with his medications, he rarely experiences any problems and you wouldn't know he had any, even off the meds. But he has referred to it as his "demons" or "friends" (depending on his mood).

Mental disorders, even the mildest of them, are frightening to us all, even if we don't have them. Because, in the backs of our minds, we realize that it could always affect us now or in the future. Be it mild forms of anxiety attacks to depression to schizophrenia. None of us are immune and the causes of such things aren't fully understood.

That you're searching one or more internet forums for answers and investigating what's happening is admirable and I wish you luck in finding the information that'll help. My best advice, however, is to visit with a trusted family physician. If you don't have one, get a recommendation from someone you trust, but there should be some fresh eyes on your situation, and maybe you can get any serious problems ruled out with a good physcial. Our petty conflicts in sciforums (the skeptics vs the mystics) won't help you -though you might find a certain bit of amusement in our tirades! :)

Good luck to you, rj2631r6.
 
Back
Top