Quantum Creationism -- Is It Science Or Is It Religion?

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Correct! They are, of course, approximations.
Well measuring the distance between Los Angeles and New York, our maths are accurate to within a hair's breadth.
But what would be more accurate than the mathematical processes we can currently measure.
You could use a larger scale model in which all forces have been scaled similarly. We can't do that right now. But it would be a much better predictive model than our current approximations.
Can you explain how that would work more accurately than mathematics? Would it be a type of mathematics?
?? I didn't say we should. I merely said that it was possible, and at that point would not need the math,
IOW, there is no other measuring and recording system that is more accurate than symbolized mathematics that allows us to solve the mysteries of the universe. What exactly would this large scale model be in essence? A mathematical model? Don't we already have some of this in "set" theory?
I agree it is currently our best tool that we have to understand and model them. However, and again, the universe is not just math, any more than the Mona Lisa is just iron oxide and cobalt.
Why do you continue to use comparisons of natural processes with artificial representations? And if we used a larger scale model, would the Mona Lisa be any different from the universal model than it is now? But would the mathematics change?
Yes. That is not me throwing a glass bottle against a stone wall; it is a woman throwing a glass bottle at the curved metal hull of a ship. So your comparison is rejected.
Is your force more accurate than the woman's force? Is kinetic force measured with physics or mathematics?
I am sorry to say that I see your comparisons of human symbolic maths with Universal generic maths as a false comparison.
Can you provide one example of a universal process that does not utilize mathematics that can be symbolized to represent the values involved?

IMO. there is no escape from the mathematical nature of natural processes. It can all be represented with algorithms and differential equations, no? We make mathematics because the universe is a mathematical object.
The universe is not a mathematical object because our mathematics make it that way.

p.s. I really appreciate your responses. Having to answer questions or opposing perspectives allows me to develop my arguments and hopefully clarify my POV .
 
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There is about the Higgs boson. It cannot exist independently. That's why there are no observable Higgs bosons. There are none. They don't belong in this explicated dimension. They are virtual values, but do respond to specific (mathematical) physical conditions.

OTOH here is a picture of a triangular quantum fractal.

Physicists wrangled electrons into a quantum fractal
Electrons within the structure behave as if they live in a fractional number of dimensions
110918_EC_fractal-geometry_feat_REV.jpg

ELECTRONS GO FRACTAL A fractal called a Sierpinski triangle (right) has been fashioned in the quantum realm (left), shown in an image indicating the density of electrons on the surface of copper.
S.N. KEMPKES ET AL/NATURE PHYSICS
https://www.sciencenews.org/article/physicists-wrangled-electrons-quantum-fractal
So effing what?
 
But what would be more accurate than the mathematical processes we can currently measure.
The actual distance.
Why do you continue to use comparisons of natural processes with artificial representations?
Because THEY ARE DIFFERENT. That's the point.

If all of a sudden you have realized that a natural process is DIFFERENT from an artificial representation (whether that representation is math-based or scale-model-based) then congratulations! You have finally figured it out.
 
Because THEY ARE DIFFERENT. That's the point.
Yes, because they are different topics.

Human symbolization of natural generic mathematics are different but dependent on observation of natural functions and expressions.

Universal generic mathematics are independent from but causal to human observation.
 
What is confusing about that? What is your objection?

Let me try this; the French use different words than the English for everything (nearly). Which language came first and who taught whom? Does using a different alphabet prevent them from telling the same story?
 
That is a real picture with an electron microscope. Looks mathematical (fractal) to me, no?

If natural processes can be stimulated by humans through the use of mathematical manipulations, how can you refuse to consider the concept that the universe has defined mathematical aspects and properties?
We use universal mathematics every day, whether we know it consciously or not.
 
THANK YOU! Yes, they are separate.
And human maths is lacking in precision at the quantum scale the universal maths operates at, ok? I agree.

But does that mean the universe has no maths? I call that a very unscientific conclusion.
Human maths work and therefore the Universe does not have a logical operating system that can be defined with symbolic maths?? Where is the logic in that?

It is like saying that 1 + 1 (a + a) in symbolic human terms is not the same thing as 1 particle with an inherent value + 1 particle of equal value in nature! Why?

How is it that a man-made dynamic flow of liquids in a laboratory uses the exact same mathematics as a similar flow of liquids in nature?

Are French and English separate languages? Can they tell the same story? Of course they can. When a story is told, only the symbolic representation of the words changes. The story itself doesn't change.

Human maths and actual Universal mathematical functions are separate languages, but does that mean they cannot tell the same story?

Physical constant
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A physical constant, sometimes fundamental physical constant or universal constant, is a physical quantity that is generally believed to be both universal in nature and have constant value in time.
It is distinct from a mathematical constant, which has a fixed numerical value, but does not directly involve any physical measurement.
There are many physical constants in science, some of the most widely recognized being the speed of light in vacuum c, the gravitational constant G, the Planck constant h, the electric constant ε0, and the elementary charge e.
Physical constants can take many dimensional forms: the speed of light signifies a maximum speed for any object and its dimension is length divided by time; while the proton-to-electron mass ratio, is dimensionless.
more ......
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_constant

Note that the properties described in human symbolic language are of a mathematical nature.

Apart from Biblical creationism (at any level) that does not prove or falsify anything, there is no known natural interactive process that does not rest on the mathematical application of some Universal mathematical constant value and/or function.

Universal mathematics is the fundamental logical guiding principle of ALL physics, human or Universal.
The one great difference is that humans can apply the wrong maths and things go wrong, whereas the universe can never do wrong maths. It is mathematical in its very essence.

Hence my proposition that mathematics is the deterministic process that guides all natural interactive processes and permits or restricts any physical process, depending on the inherent interactive values (differential equations) of the values involved.
 
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And human maths is lacking in precision at the quantum scale the universal maths operates at, ok? I agree.

But does that mean the universe has no maths? I call that a very unscientific conclusion.
Human maths work and therefore the Universe does not have a logical operating system that can be defined with symbolic maths?? Where is the logic in that?

It is like saying that 1 + 1 (a + a) in symbolic human terms is not the same thing as 1 particle with an inherent value + 1 particle of equal value in nature! Why?

How is it that a man-made dynamic flow of liquids in a laboratory uses the exact same mathematics as a similar flow of liquids in nature?

Are French and English separate languages? Can they tell the same story? Of course they can. When a story is told, only the symbolic representation of the words changes. The story itself doesn't change.

Human maths and actual Universal mathematical functions are separate languages, but does that mean they cannot tell the same story?

Physical constant
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
more ......
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_constant

Note that the properties described in human symbolic language are of a mathematical nature.

Apart from Biblical creationism (at any level) that does not prove or falsify anything, there is no known natural interactive process that does not rest on the mathematical application of some Universal mathematical constant value and/or function.

Universal mathematics is the fundamental logical guiding principle of ALL physics, human or Universal.
The one great difference is that humans can apply the wrong maths and things go wrong, whereas the universe can never do wrong maths. It is mathematical in its very essence.

Hence my proposition that mathematics is the deterministic process that guides all natural interactive processes and permits or restricts any physical process, depending on the inherent interactive values (differential equations) of the values involved.
Here endeth the lesson, dearly beloved. :D
 
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But does that mean the universe has no maths? I call that a very unscientific conclusion.
Of course not. Math exists, just like Romeo and Juliet exists, and just like flat Earthers exist. None of the three determine how the universe functions. (Although one is a lot more useful when trying to understand the universe.) As you yourself just said - they are different.
It is like saying that 1 + 1 (a + a) in symbolic human terms is not the same thing as 1 particle with an inherent value + 1 particle of equal value in nature! Why?
With photons, sometimes 1+1=2 (reinforcement.) Sometimes 1+1=0 (cancellation.)

And just like that - your math fails. But maybe a DIFFERENT set of principles will work, like introducing phase! Now we have new tools to use that will be valid more often - not all the time, but more often.
Are French and English separate languages? Can they tell the same story? Of course they can. When a story is told, only the symbolic representation of the words changes. The story itself doesn't change.
That is exactly correct. And if that story is defined via math, then exactly the same thing applies. The story is not English or French. It is the story. And the unviverse is not math. It is the universe.
Human maths and actual Universal mathematical functions are separate languages, but does that mean they cannot tell the same story?
That is also exactly right. Human math and your "universal mathematical functions" are separate - but they are not the story. The story is the universe itself.

So once again we are done here - unless you find a way to misinterpret yourself again.
 
With photons, sometimes 1+1=2 (reinforcement.) Sometimes 1+1=0 (cancellation.)
And have we codified and symbolized that particular process? Can you give me an actual example of that?
And just like that - your math fails. But maybe a DIFFERENT set of principles will work, like introducing phase! Now we have new tools to use that will be valid more often - not all the time, but more often.
My point is that no matter what you introduce about a natural process, it will be of a mathematical nature and the principles can be codified! As you just did with your (1 + 1 = 0)
So once again we are done here - unless you find a way to misinterpret yourself again.
Oh, I believe you are completely misinterpreting my position. I am not arguing for human mathematics, I am arguing for natural (Universal) mathematics.
You say they don't exist? I say they do and humans have a pretty fair understanding of how they work as natural mathematical processes in all physics, geometrical, temporal, chemical, or biochemical.

When there is Input --> Function --> Output, you have a mathematical function. Are you telling me that is not so?
What word would you use that cannot be misinterpreted as a mathematical function? Magic?

Mathematics: forget simplicity, the abstract is beautiful - and important
Published: February 27, 2018 10.22am EST
file-20180226-140213-yox11e.jpg

Why is mathematics so complicated? It’s a question many students will ask while grappling with a particularly complex calculus problem – and their teachers will probably echo while setting or marking tests.
It wasn’t always this way. Many fields of mathematics germinated from the study of real world problems, before the underlying rules and concepts were identified. These rules and concepts were then defined as abstract structures. For instance, algebra, the part of mathematics in which letters and other general symbols are used to represent numbers and quantities in formulas and equations was born from solving problems in arithmetic. Geometry emerged as people worked to solve problems dealing with distances and area in the real world.
That process of moving from the concrete to the abstract scenario is known, appropriately enough, as abstraction. Through abstraction, the underlying essence of a mathematical concept can be extracted. People no longer have to depend on real world objects, as was once the case, to solve a mathematical puzzle. They can now generalise to have wider applications or by matching it to other structures can illuminate similar phenomena. An example is the adding of integers, fractions, complex numbers, vectors and matrices. The concept is the same, but the applications are different.
This evolution was necessary for the development of mathematics, and important for other scientific disciplines too.
How The Conversation is different: We explain without oversimplifying.
Why is this important? Because the growth of abstraction in maths gave disciplines like chemistry, physics, astronomy, geology, meteorology the ability to explain a wide variety of complex physical phenomena that occur in nature. If you grasp the process of abstraction in mathematics, it will equip you to better understand abstraction occurring in other tough science subjects like chemistry or physics.
From the real world to the abstract
The earliest example of abstraction was when humans counted before symbols existed. A sheep herder, for instance, needed to keep track of his flock of sheep without having any sort of symbolic system akin to numbers. So how did he do this to ensure that none of his sheep wandered away or got stolen?
One solution is to obtain a big supply of stones. He then moved the sheep one-by-one into an enclosed area. Each time a sheep passed, he placed a stone in a pile. Once all the sheep had passed, he got rid of the extra stones and was left with a pile of stones representing his flock.
Every time he needed to count the sheep, he removed the stones from his pile; one for each sheep. If he had stones left over, it means some sheep had wandered away or perhaps been stolen. This one-to-one correspondence helped the shepherd to keep track of his flock.
Obviously sheep are not stones, but stones are easier to count than moving sheep. [/quote]
Today, we use the Arabic numbers (also known as the Hindu-Arabic numerals): 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 to represent any integer, that is any whole number.
This is another example of abstraction, and it’s powerful. It means we’re able to handle any amount of sheep, regardless of how many stones we have. We’ve moved from real-world objects – stones, sheep – to the abstract. There is real strength in this: we’ve created a space where the rules are minimalistic, yet the games that can be played are endless.
Another advantage of abstraction is that it reveals a deeper connection between different fields of mathematics. Results in one field can suggest concepts and ideas to be explored in a related field. Occasionally, methods and techniques developed in one field can be directly applied to another field to create similar results.
https://theconversation.com/mathema...he-abstract-is-beautiful-and-important-91757#

Telling me that there are no blackboards with equations and algorithms floating around in space is not an argument. The writings on the black board represent the abstraction of what is actually happening in spacetime.

Every thing in the Universe has an intrinsic quality (value) that can be abstracted mathematically or it does not exist as a thing.
 
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My point is that no matter what you introduce about a natural process, it will be of a mathematical nature and the principles can be codified! As you just did with your (1 + 1 = 0)
And again you are going about this backwards. The universe is not based on math; math is something we developed to (imperfectly) describe the universe. They are two different things.

Since you have already admitted this, at this point you are arguing with yourself. I will let you get to it.
 
And again you are going about this backwards. The universe is not based on math; math is something we developed to (imperfectly) describe the universe. They are two different things.
They are not different things! Human maths is the symbolization of universal maths.
They are the SAME THING as described by increasingly more accurate human codification representation of what is going on in reality.
Reality is the physical expression of relational values, interacting via mathematical functions.
Since you have already admitted this, at this point you are arguing with yourself.
Oh no, I am perfectly aware of the differences between artificial human mathematics and generic Universal mathematics.

What I am saying is that they both are mathematical in essence.
 
You have already admitted that they are indeed different. In your own words: "Yes, because they are different topics."
So you should take up this discussion with that person.
Again you misunderstand. They are different in description (from observation) of the mathematics, in the performance of applied mathematics they do the same THING, i.e. mathematics .
Describe water in the abstract and its emergent properties based on the mathematical patterns of its constituent parts.
All patterns in nature, including the human pattern, have universally common mathematical properties (constants).
The proven existence of Universal Constants rests on the constancy of logical interacting relational values and functions, what we have named "mathematics", but acknowledging that what we call mathematical permissions or restrictions guided the evolutionary history of the Universe, long before man came on the scene.
 
Write4U:

Wow. So much added bullshit, in such a short time. I see you're floundering around, looking for excuses, backing off your original claims and making new ones that are just as silly as the first bunch. Even when you're confronted with scientific facts, you can't bring yourself to admit you didn't know something; instead, you have to invent rationalisations and try to distract with one irrelevancy after another.

I think I'll just respond in the order you posted things, even though it will mean that several topics recur. In some cases, you directly contradict yourself from one post to the next. I think you lack the ability to focus. And the ability to answer a straight question. Instead, you duck and weave and pretend. Why, Write4U? Why?
I should not have to answer questions that are common knowledge.
Your idea of "common knowledge" is your own. You're way out on a limb with your beliefs. If I ask you a straightforward question, it is often to try to establish what it is that you actually believe. I know you find this annoying, because it constrains your ability to flip-flop when things get difficult in the conversation. What I am trying to get you to do is to focus long enough on one thing to allow you to start to see the inconsistencies, the contradictions and the sheer stupidity of some of your claims. But you seem to have blinkers on, which just stop you from taking in anything that isn't already part of your religion. You're practically fact-proof.
1."there" is no outside the universe. But there is a timeless, dimensionless condition that permits the expanding universe, in whatever way that expansion is expressed.
Where is this "timeless, dimensionless condition" of yours? Is it just a concept, or does it exist somewhere?
2. The terms are named "enfolded" as unexpressed potentials, and "unfolded" as manifest physical pattern.
What is the process that turns an "unexpressed potential" into a "manifest physical pattern"?

Can you describe one specific example in which an "unexpressed potential" is "unfolded" into a "manifest physical pattern"? I want to see, for example, how a "mathematical function" can turn into a butterfly or a star or a turnip.
3. The fractal patterns that created all the geometrical properties of the universe.
The question I asked you was "What's a 'fractal unfolding'? Can I do a fractal unfolding of a bed sheet, say? What would that look like, and how would it differ from a regular unfolding?"

Can you answer the question I asked you? Or can you not answer it?
Yes, the double slit experiment clearly shows the interference patterns of the pilot wave the photon rides on.
....
Here is your Pilot wave interference pattern as it passes through the double slits.
The question I asked you was "Is the field due to the pilot waves directly detectable?"
Bohmian Conditional Wave Functions (and the status of the quantum state) Travis Norsen Physics Dept., Smith College, Northampton, MA 01063, USA E-mail: tnorsen@smith.edu Abstract.
Relevance to what I asked: zero.
If the pattern is describable in relational terms it has "value".
I don't know what that means. What does a description in "relational terms" look like? Please give a specific example, and explain what you mean by "relational terms".
Complex patterns often are describable by their emergent properties above and beyond the sum of the constituent parts.
Please give a specific example of such a description.
Question to you: What do you think is the property that sets different particles from each other?
There are lots of properties we can use to distinguish different particles. They include mass, charge, spin, and others.

This, by the way, is an example of how one can briefly and succinctly answer a direct question. Please learn from this.
Well, you are arguing from that perspective aren't you? Else why should you have objection to Bohmian Mechanics? (a real contender!)
Did I say I have an objection to Bohmian mechanics?

What is it a "contender" for? Is there a competition going on?
So, you would entertain the possibility of reversing the equation and consider the quantum event being an event independent from but causal to observation.
What I asked you was: "What are you talking about when you say "result before cause"? What result came before the thing that caused it? And how could a wave function collapse cause an observation?"

Why didn't you answer the question I asked you, Write4U?

After you answer the question I asked you, we'll find out whether I will entertain your idea of events causing observations. I don't hold out high hopes for that idea at present.
 
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I believe the general concept has been defined.
Humour me. What do you understand the term "quantum creationism" to be describing?

Is there some theory you subscribe to, under that label?
Because religions are partially based on observation and apparently the concept of a triune (triangular pattern)
Religions?

Which religions are you thinking of, other that the Christian ones that have the Holy Trinity?

Do you think it is something other than a coincidence that the number 3 can be found in both mathematics and in the bible?

Is there something mystical about the number 3, according to you?
James R said:
Both of what speak of a fundamental triangulation?
Both religious and secular mental concepts of creation and existence.
That's such a broad claim it is useless. What are you actually trying to say here? That religions are tapping into secular mental concepts (or vice versa)? That "creation and existence" are somehow based on the magical number 3? Or what?
3 dimensional space, triangulation as a fractal function, biblical triune, The simplest 2 dimensional pattern possible?
Word salad.
Hoooo, hold your horses. Why do you associate Creation with a living God when scripture is so wrong about everything else.
I said nothing about a living God. What are you talking about? Creationism is a pseudoscience created by Christian apologists.
Scripture is not science. It strives to be a teacher of human morality, an effort it has failed miserably . Yours is an example of Abrahamic thinking.
I am not a Creationist. You are the one who is bending over backwards to invent a new pseudoscience called "quantum creationism". Are you not?
The word God is not in my scientific library. The concept of an Intelligent Designer is a product of human hubris.(sighs)
Isn't your whole idea of "mathematical functions" creating the physical universe essentially an "intelligent design" hypothesis? If not, where do you think your magical "mathematical functions" come from?
Are you claiming that what I do and post is not research into the subjects?
I am claiming that the ability to use google search and then to cut-and-paste random superficial snippets of mostly-irrelevant science is not "research".
 
Read my posts and quoted passages from scientists!
I note that you have no specific objections to anything I wrote in my dot-point lists, above.
So you think Chaos theory is nonsense?
No, I do not.

I don't think Chaos theory is the cause of the universe, either. Do you?
You have no theories at all.
What do you mean?

Are we talking scientific theories with our names attached to them? (How could you know?) Or are we just talking about having our own ideas about things, or something informal like that?

Suppose, if you like, that I have no scientific theories that are generally referred to using my name. Then what?
Exactly which passages in my post warrant these negative remarks?
All the ones that contain errors - i.e. the ones I quoted, for which I pointed to numerous errors.
You are making a lot of hollow noises but quote not a single actual correction based one of my verbatim posits.
Read those dot points. All of them were corrections.
You are a lazy thinker.
At least I'm a thinker.
You think you are critiquing, but in reality you are just being hypocritical.
How so?
 
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