Pure, Single, Positive Bases of Existence are Absurd

How is your position not a single metaphysical position as well?

If all single metaphysical positions can be shown to be absurd, then we are led toward a neutral position, I guess, which is still a position, but somehow has all and none of the single positions somehow at the same time, in a unity.

Yeah, I know the above is kind of mushy sounding.
 
Are you asking a question or making a statement? Must all materialists possess a "pure and single materialism notion"? In other words, are you addressing materialism in general, or just one particular variety of materialism?

(I'm something of a physicalist, so I'm wondering whether you're challenging my position.)

It's a question. For pure materialism, I'm addressing a fundamental substance being all there is and it having been around forever.

Of course, there is effectively what serves as material, and for me that is good enough to call it 'material', as that concerns the message and not the mechanics of the messenger as to any implementation. If material has to be made, then that's fine, too, but it is here now. The absurdity might be that there's nothing to make the basic material of, it having no source but 'nothing', and that's another absurdity that a lack of anything could do anything, but something has to give here, since something forever as defined had no definition point.

A Being might be called absurd since it is complex fundamental and/or it, too, has no source.
 
indeed
promissory materialism's ace up the sleeve...the hidden variables ;)

There may not be any hidden variables in QM, it not depending on anything, which is kind of like from 'nothing', or at least random, but then what regulates the random to stay random? Lots of absurdities around.
 
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What exactly is wrong with sermonizing? This is a serious question.

It is usually just repeating something over and over again as fact that really has no showing, such as reincarnation, God, etc. The error is to portray it as truth.
 
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With these analyses, what do you hope to find?
What aim are you trying to achieve?

World domination?
Relieving your own existential angst?
Humiliating your opponents?
Being able to sleep at night?

More insight into the why and how of existence.

(And domination of the cosmos)
 
It is usually just repeating something over and over again as fact that really has no showing, such as reincarnation, God, etc. The error is to portray it as truth.

Why is that an error?


You try to dominate the cosmos - and the cosmos will try to dominate you.
One form of this attempt at domination is sermonizing.

So why would sermonizing be an error, if the desire for domination is not questionable/erroneous?


* * *



One considerable problem with discussing anything, but especially "metaphysics," is that people generally strive to be polite, try to not "make a scene."
This means that many doubts are not entered into, many questions are not asked - and for no other reason than the desire not to "make a scene."
I think this is a rather poor reason for not doubting and not asking.
 
What would that be good for?

What is standing atop a mountain and admiring the view good for? How about looking a pretty sunset, or watching meteor shower, or yelling out to your friends "hey, look at that perfect rainbow!"?

For a lot of people (myself included), science is about the discovery of the hidden beauty of the reality that we find ourselves within. There are fantastic views to drink in, incredible phenomena to admire and things that are so exciting that you want to tell your friends about them. Just like standing atop a mountain, or seeing a sunset, or a meteor shower or a rainbow for the first time, it can be a profoundly enriching experience.

Here are two famous quotes which I'm sure you've read before, but which are highly relevant nonetheless:

“I have never imputed to Nature a purpose or a goal, or anything that could be understood as anthropomorphic. What I see in Nature is a magnificent structure that we can comprehend only very imperfectly, and that must fill a thinking person with a feeling of humility. This is a genuinely religious feeling that has nothing to do with mysticism.”

"The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reasons for existing. One cannot help but be in awe when he contemplates the mysteries of eternity, of life, of the marvelous structure of reality. It is enough if one tries to comprehend a little of this mystery every day. Never lose a holy curiosity."


Not everyone embraces such notions I guess, perhaps embracing (or looking to embrace) alternative but equally satisfying ones instead. To the person who does embrace such notions, metaphysics could probably be said to be a manifestation of the resulting enthusiasm.

Why do you want to dominate the cosmos?

I'm certain that SciWriter was just employing a bit of tongue-in-cheek humour there.
 
I wrote:

I don't know what "pure, single, positive bases of existence" means.

Sciwriter says:

Such as fundamental substance, 'all is consciousness', a Being, ex nihilo, a matrix projector… any metaphysical basis promoted.

Ok. I still don't totally understand it, but the problem probably isn't you, it might be the idea itself.

I'll define 'metaphysics' to mean inquiries into 'ultimate reality', in the sense of what really and most truly exists.

So are you arguing against the idea that metaphysical inquiries can ever be resolved? And perhaps for the stronger idea as well that any proposed resolution is inevitably going to be 'absurd'?

It's interesting (to me at least) that I was just reading about arguments about precisely these issues arising in Buddhist philosophy some 2000 years ago. What follows is a capsule history of Buddhist thinking on this issue. (Writing it helps me clarify it in my own head.)

***********************

There was a broad tendency, beginning in the last centuries BCE, involving a number of different Buddhist philosphical schools, called 'abhidharma'. This project was inspired by meditation practice, basically trying to break down experience into primary existents that they called 'dharmas'.

What marked something as a primary existent was its resistance to being reduced to more elementary constituents. Dharmas were effectively irreducibles, out of which all the rest of reality was built molecularly. These fundamental atoms are what they are because of their own nature, their basic substance or essence, you might say. The technical term for that was 'svabhava', meaning 'own-being'.

Compounded things are what they are simply because of the transitory and causally-governed structure and arrangement of their more primary constituents. They are like a pile of sand -- there isn't any separate interior 'pile' in there that can be revealed by taking away all the obscuring sand-grains. We just assign the word 'pile' conventionally to the heap of sand, when all that's really there is the sand. Forms of being that are compounded out of more basic elements were said to be 'empty' of their own unique essence or substance (or svabhava).

The Buddhists argued pretty vigorously among themselves about precisely how these atoms should be construed. Some (like the Sarvastivadins) treated them like timeless Aristotelian essences, while most favored the idea that they were instantaneous and causally conditioned, some suggesting that they are material atoms and still others psychological atoms, the instantaneous and constantly changing building blocks of any possible experience (of a reality whose ontological status remained undetermined).

What held all the Buddhists together on the same page was the idea, which everyone agreed on, that Buddhists could deconstruct everyday experience into a constantly changing flow of these dharmas in meditative experience, even without any final conclusion as to what the dharmas are. In particular, they could deconstruct their own sense of self into dharmas and they all agreed that the self was empty.

And inevitably, there were critics of the whole abhidharma project. These people argued that when considered properly, all of the dharmas were themselves empty of svabhava too. The sautrantikas pioneered this tendency and it reached its philosophical maturity in madhyamaka. What these people argued against was the whole idea that there are any ultimate constituents of reality at all. Analysis into dharmas might be a useful tool in meditation, but argued that it could be continued on without end, with nothing able to resist its force. In other words, nothing possesses svabhava or own-being. Everything is just a conventional application of some word like 'pile' to the pile of sand. No noun refers to a substance or an essence, which don't exist. This is the 'emptiness of dharmas', or 'dharma sunyata'.

The madhyamakas in turn split up into two varieties. One were logicians who favored syllogistic reasoning and believed that they were really making a coherent metphysical statement about how reality is when they insisted that dharmas (and everything else) was 'empty'.

The other party favored reductio-ad-absurdems over syllogistic reasoning, insisting that they made no metaphysical assertions themselves at all, but only displayed the absurdity in everyone else's metaphysical reasoning.
 
I'll define 'metaphysics' to mean inquiries into 'ultimate reality', in the sense of what really and most truly exists.

That’s an excellent description.


So are you arguing against the idea that metaphysical inquiries can ever be resolved? And perhaps for the stronger idea as well that any proposed resolution is inevitably going to be 'absurd'?

Yes, for they all seem to have serious problems, although we could be missing something, such as material or ‘nothing’ is not exactly what we take it to be. Maybe I’ll make a short list of the pro and con of the more common positions.


The other party favored reductio-ad-absurdems over syllogistic reasoning, insisting that they made no metaphysical assertions themselves at all, but only displayed the absurdity in everyone else's metaphysical reasoning.

Yes, this is exactly the neutral metaphysical position that says no one single position can be so, thus indicating some kind of unity. They also see qualities and relations making for “piles of sand” everywhere that are, of course, not fundamental things in themselves, suggesting their unrealness, but in the end they still wish to serve the task, so to speak, of attending to existence, doing the right thing, so in this way they still engage it as if it was something.

As for not trying to fully engage existence in "living a whole lot", since they see this as suffering, I suppose they then nature got "ego" wrong, and this is a whole topic in itself, as we might also see that it was ego and a zest for life that got us where we are, a lot being because of it, not in spite of it.
 
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So why would sermonizing be an error, if the desire for domination is not questionable/erroneous?

There’s no error in sermonizing, for that’s how they add to their movement or maintain it, by the repetition. The events of their metaphysical dogma may not be true, so it’s an error to say that they are; however, they are fine when they appeal to ‘faith’, which some know that they must, for that is of an unknown.


What would more insight into the why and how of existence be good for?

As for any knowledge, our nature is to be curious and look for it, we also having found that information can be useful toward better living, the will then having wider choices from wider learning. We don't know ahead of time if the endeavor will provide information that will be useful.
 
Some Metaphysical Positions


Fundamental Energy/Substance(s)/Entities Forever

Con: As with all eternal things, it is that they were never made, yet they would have a specific total amount and very particular and specific properties, as well as limited types of instantiations, like, say, electrons and quarks, or whatever, but never unaccounted for, as well as no substructure. No source, then, so the notion seems absurd and also incomplete. The ‘how’ of the no source is unknown but for calling it ‘causeless’, and things don’t seem to be able to be causeless, unless, grasping at straws, we say that all possible definitions come out or there is only one possible thing, yet, still there is no source and nothing to make the stuff of.

Pro: Nothing can become of nothing, as a total lack of anything doesn’t even have a ‘there’, so this fundamental something forever has to be the case, and all must get down to a causeless state, anyway, since an infinite regress doesn’t seem to make sense.

Observation: Energy/material is indeed here and can be utilized. This doesn’t say if it was created or it is fundamental.


Energy/Substance Gets Created

Con: Nothing to make it of, so seems absurd.

Pro: Can’t have an entity with no source, since it would have no definition point, so it must be created and thereby be defined in its specifics, total amount, and its types.

Observation: Big Bang, pair emission. Zero-balance clues. Energy/material is here…


All is Experiential

Con: All would be a hoax just for show, as in a dream or a movie, yet we haves senses and a brain, and so they would have to be operating on something actual. ‘Experiential’ seems to have at least something to it, or at least something beneath it that must be ultimately real of energy/substance/entity running the whole operation of virtual reality or a hologram, so, then, it’s back to the previous positions above. Also, consciousness can be shown to be a process of the brain, requires a brain, comes last (after brain analysis and process), and can be inhibited by anesthesia or a blow to the head. So, absurd.

Pro: Nebulous analysis, but this state somehow more doable than having actual energy/substance doing the work of reality, or there can’t be any energy/substance. Consciousness is indeed our only portal; all is appearance therein, the true reality of which cannot be known.

Observation: True, all experience occurs inside the head, re-presented, and some of this is projected as if we are directly sensing ‘out there’, and we do seem to be able to operate on what is ‘out there’. We don’t know if the ‘head/brain’ is a virtual experience as well.


A Fundamental Being (this is really the same as entity/energy/substance forever as above, having those pros and cons, too, plus more here)

Con: A seeming complexity of mind, thus having substructure, making it not fundamental. Personal testimony questionable, Bible wrong on cosmology and that species as immutable. This, absurd.

Pro: A personal connection, somehow.

Observation: An internal feeling is claimed by some.


All is Ever Within the Universal QM Wave-function

Con: Wave-functions collapse.

Pro: QM works. Maybe all possibilities are in superposition, the workable paths joining and going on, or all of them in ‘many worlds’.

Observation: Hard to make any.
 
What is standing atop a mountain and admiring the view good for? How about looking a pretty sunset, or watching meteor shower, or yelling out to your friends "hey, look at that perfect rainbow!"?

And this is just it - without those friends, admiring nature sooner or later becomes an empty endeavor.


For a lot of people (myself included), science is about the discovery of the hidden beauty of the reality that we find ourselves within.

Sure, but all this beauty means nothing if one has noone to share it with, to talk about it.

Eventually, I think it is the friends, the sense of belonging that really matter, not the beauty of nature.



I'm certain that SciWriter was just employing a bit of tongue-in-cheek humour there.

Not necessarily.

The desire to dominate has a bad reputation, in the West as well as the East.
Sometimes, the desire to dominate is a sign of deep uncertainty, an attempt to produce a Universe in which one would be safe.
Other times, the desire to dominate is simply a sign of one's own expansive nature.
For uses of discussion, it can be good to know which one one is driven by.
 
There’s no error in sermonizing, for that’s how they add to their movement or maintain it, by the repetition. The events of their metaphysical dogma may not be true, so it’s an error to say that they are; however, they are fine when they appeal to ‘faith’, which some know that they must, for that is of an unknown.

Again, why do you think that is an error?
 
I think it is the friends, the sense of belonging that really matter…

I can never share a mind directly, for there is no access; we are alone. Mind melding works only for the Vulcans. This loneliness leads us to company. The unbearable solitude of consciousness is thus relieved by literature, social clubs, movies, caring, friendships, discussion, writing, and other sharing acts, and, perhaps mostly, by love.
 
Again, why do you think that is an error?

Stating as true what is not known to be true, thus the better advice of going on 'faith', which essentially is honest and and admitting of the unknown and even unknowable events, not that they would phase it, "You know, folks, we only have a notion that we can't substantiate, and so it might not even be true, but we have found it useful:…"
 
Stating as true what is not known to be true, thus the better advice of going on 'faith', which essentially is honest and and admitting of the unknown and even unknowable events, not that they would phase it, "You know, folks, we only have a notion that we can't substantiate, and so it might not even be true, but we have found it useful:…"

You're still not telling me why you think it is an error to state as fact something that is merely a matter of faith.
 
You're still not telling me why you think it is an error to state as fact something that is merely a matter of faith.

Because they made a mistake (error) of a myth-take, which is admittedly probably out of their zeal for the promotion of their position.

Why "I think" that a supposition, such as one informing me that even the universe told the person that cold fusion is true is that it cannot be shown to be so, and so while my probability estimate says it may or may not be true or have degrees of hope, ultimately, it's wrong to say as a sure thing that it is true. For that matter, we don't even know if it "could be", either, if that is said.

A matter of faith expressly indicates that it is a hope for the unknown of the position to be true.
 
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