prove to me that god is real
- Thread starter dansufc
- Start date
John Mark E
Registered Senior Member
It appears that, for over a year now, the impossible has been requested, required, even demanded, on this thread. The request was for physical evidence of the existence of God. I say this is impossible because one cannot physically prove that which is not physical, but rather a Spirit. "God is a Spirit, and they that worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in Truth."-John 4:24
So, if God cannot be proven directly, by physical evidence of Himself, other means must be attempted. Perhaps there is indirect evidence of Him. The only physical item claiming to be directly from God is that which is labeled the Word of God. Yet many claim that these writings cannot possibly be evidence of God due to being written by people, or that it is just a collection of stories, or it cannot be taken as fact, or that the writings cannot be proven.
I disagree.
I find that much of the Old Testament scriptures (or the Jewish Bible) are the
historical writings of the people of Israel. There are writings of history, law,
and poetry, as well as the writings of the prophets. Now many of the people
mentioned in these scriptures can be historically and archaeologically verified in sources other than the Bible. A small fraction of those have previously been posted, in order to show that these writings are not filled with fictitious
characters, but rather actual, historical individuals. However, to some, this
historical accuracy is not evidence enough to take the Bible as accurate. So how about writings in these books that tell of occurrences in this century?
First, some background information to give some validity to the dates given.
Over the last 4,000 years, Jewish scribes, and later, Christian scribes, were very careful to correctly copy and transmit the original manuscripts of sacred Scriptures without any significant error. These were referred to as Masoretic, and were meticulously studied, even to the point of counting each Hebrew letter, to ensure the accuracy of the copy. Once completed, a copy was studied by a Master Examiner, who would check each individual letter. If errors were found, the corrupted copy was burned to prevent an inaccurate translation from becoming a master copy in the future.
Over a millennium ago, Yemenite Jews were separated from those in the Middle East and Europe. Despite separate transmissions and copying of their Torah manuscripts, a thousand years later, only nine (9) Hebrew letters, out of some 304,805 letters in the Yemenite Torah manuscript, differ from the accepted Hebrew Masoretic text of the Torah. For those that care, that is a variation of .002 or 1/500th of one percent. And, not one of these letter variations changed the meaning of a single, significant word of the text.
The first copy of the English translation of the Bible, the King James version
(KJV) was written in 1611. This was directly translated from the original Hebrew language from what was called the Textus Recepticus. Most of our current English translations came from this first translation.
In 1947, in some Qumran caves near the Dead Sea, a virtual library of books was discovered. In cave #4 at this site, manuscripts were discovered, fully in tact. These manuscripts and scrolls, the paper and ink, were all dated to before AD 68. Within these ancient texts were included almost the entire Hebrew Bible (the Christian Old Testament). The book of Esther was the only book not located at this time. When compared with the Textus Recepticus, it was determined that, aside from some very minor spelling variations, the texts were the same, with no wording differences. Multiple copies of some of these books were found, including Genesis, Deuteronomy, and Isaiah.
Some of these books document predictions of certain events which have only
occurred within the last 60 years. These were found to be accurately predicted to within the proper season of the year. The book itself dates back to before AD 68.
Would such a prediction be of interest?
The book of Ezekiel was to have been written during the time of Babylonian rule over Israel. Nebuchadnezzar was ruler over Babylon at the time. The prophet Ezekiel made a prediction of when the people of Israel would become an independent nation again, after their appointed punishment. Taking his prediction, in conjunction with the laws, written in the book of Leviticus, and following the Israelite lunar calendar of 30-day months, and 360-day years, the timing of when Israel, once again, became an independent nation was accurate, up to the Spring of 1948.
Ezekiel 4:3-6 - "This will be a sign to the house of Israel. Lie also on your
left side, and lay the iniquity of the house of Israel upon it. According to the
number of the days that you lie on it, you shall bear their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days, so you shall bear the iniquity of the house of Israel. And when you have completed them, lie again on your right side; then you shall bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days. I have laid on you a day for each year."
Ezekiel states that this sign would be 430 years of punishment. This additional captivity began at the end of the first 70 years of predicted captivity in Babylon (Jeremiah 25:11). When deducting the 70 years already endured in Babylon, which ended in 536 BC, there were still 360 years remaining. However, when freed, near 95% of the captives remained in Babylon by choice.
By this alone, Israel should have been back in their own lands by 176 BC, with all its people returning. Why has so much time passed before Israel became an independent nation again? Was the Bible wrong? No. It was not. Although there are 66 books, they each support the others. The explanation is in the Mosaic Laws, in Leviticus 26. In this area of scriptures, God declared 4 times that if the people did not repent of their disobedience, after the time of punishment, then what was previously decreed would be multiplied by 7.
Leviticus 26:18 - "And after all this, if you do not obey Me, then I will punish
you seven times more for your sins."
Since the greatest majority refused to repent and return to the land of Israel,
the remaining 360 Biblical years was multiplied by 7. This meant that the Jews would remain without an independent nation for another 2,520 Biblical years, from 536 BC.
This time began at the time of the Feast of Passover, on the 14th day of the month of Nisan. The Biblical year, as before stated, was made of twelve 30-day months, making a 360-day year. To convert this to our calendar:
2,520 Biblical Years times 360 days/Biblical Year equals 907,200 days. Divide
these days by 365.25 days/Calendar Year equals 2,483.8 Calendar Years.
536.4 BC MINUS 2,483.8 Calendar Years equals AD 1974.4. Add one year, as there is no year zero (0) between 1 BC and AD 1, equals AD 1948.4.
In the spring of AD 1948, on May 14th, Israel declared their independence. At midnight, on the morning of May 15th.
This information should show that there is more to these books than many give credit. In this instance, a man, an ordinary man, was able to predict, to the appropriate season, when Israel would become a nation again...more than 2,500 years before it happened.
Godless, back on 6/4/05, you made a statement that "No one can predict the
future." I would have to agree with you, if modified to "No one can predict the future, without outside assistance." This outside assistance could only be if the One giving the assistance had either been there, or was not bound by Time. In such an instance, the Future would be no different than the Past. For such a situation, the Future could easily be communicated to others.
Wsioynw, if the writers of these old scriptures were making this stuff up, as you suggested a few weeks ago, then I would believe this statement from Godless as presented. However, this information presented is historically accurate. Do some study, and you will see that this is all precisely as it happened.
Personally, I cannot look at such information, and not realize that there is
something more to this Book than a bunch of stories; and that such cohesion between the books could not be, without there being some greater knowledge behind them. The way this information can still have a bearing in today's world, as it did, less than 60 years ago tells me that what is written here is still viable for today's world. The only way that I would know of for the accuracy of these
statements, so far in advance, lead me to think that Time has no real meaning for this great power. Yet these same writings also make other claims.
These claims are that:
2 Timothy 3:16 - "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable
for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness"
Jeremiah 1:9 - "Then the Lord put forth His hand and touched my mouth, and the Lord said unto me, 'Behold, I have put My Words in your mouth.'"
2 Peter 1:20, 21 - "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is on any
private interpretation, for prophesy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit."
and that God is looking for a relationship with His only creation to which He gave the "Breath of Life". It is that "Breath" that gives a soul/spirit. This
creature is mankind.
Other research has been done into the writings of the Jewish Torah, and
comparisons have been made with other "spiritual scriptures" including the Quran and the Talmud. Other discoveries have been found in the Torah (Christian Old Testament) that will verify the accuracy of these scriptures in comparison to
others.
Other discoveries include:
- Advanced Medical/Sanitation practices for the time period
- Archaeological confirmation of Biblical accounts of events such as "the
Exodus" from Egypt, and the Tower of Babel
- Specific mathematical patterns and coding that couldn't have been added
by human intelligence, while simultaneously retaining historical accuracy
This information can be provided, and reference materials for these findings can also be provided, although there is more information than can fit on a single post.
From this one primary example of the accuracy of the predictions of the Bible over such a long period of time (reaching up into today's time), the archaeological evidence of the personages of the scriptures, the cohesion between the 44 some odd authors over a period of 16 centuries, and the mathematical impossibilities of the occurrences in the scriptures of accurate history combined with "equidistant letter spacing" phrases, it appears that the scriptures in the Torah (Old Testament) as well as the New Testament seems to be to be accurate in every provable way.
This being the case, it would be logical to assume that the unprovable points
would also be accurate, and worth taking as fact, on the authority of the
Scriptures, themselves.
These scriptures state that God is who He claims to be, and that there are
absolute truths in this world which He created.
So, if God cannot be proven directly, by physical evidence of Himself, other means must be attempted. Perhaps there is indirect evidence of Him. The only physical item claiming to be directly from God is that which is labeled the Word of God. Yet many claim that these writings cannot possibly be evidence of God due to being written by people, or that it is just a collection of stories, or it cannot be taken as fact, or that the writings cannot be proven.
I disagree.
I find that much of the Old Testament scriptures (or the Jewish Bible) are the
historical writings of the people of Israel. There are writings of history, law,
and poetry, as well as the writings of the prophets. Now many of the people
mentioned in these scriptures can be historically and archaeologically verified in sources other than the Bible. A small fraction of those have previously been posted, in order to show that these writings are not filled with fictitious
characters, but rather actual, historical individuals. However, to some, this
historical accuracy is not evidence enough to take the Bible as accurate. So how about writings in these books that tell of occurrences in this century?
First, some background information to give some validity to the dates given.
Over the last 4,000 years, Jewish scribes, and later, Christian scribes, were very careful to correctly copy and transmit the original manuscripts of sacred Scriptures without any significant error. These were referred to as Masoretic, and were meticulously studied, even to the point of counting each Hebrew letter, to ensure the accuracy of the copy. Once completed, a copy was studied by a Master Examiner, who would check each individual letter. If errors were found, the corrupted copy was burned to prevent an inaccurate translation from becoming a master copy in the future.
Over a millennium ago, Yemenite Jews were separated from those in the Middle East and Europe. Despite separate transmissions and copying of their Torah manuscripts, a thousand years later, only nine (9) Hebrew letters, out of some 304,805 letters in the Yemenite Torah manuscript, differ from the accepted Hebrew Masoretic text of the Torah. For those that care, that is a variation of .002 or 1/500th of one percent. And, not one of these letter variations changed the meaning of a single, significant word of the text.
The first copy of the English translation of the Bible, the King James version
(KJV) was written in 1611. This was directly translated from the original Hebrew language from what was called the Textus Recepticus. Most of our current English translations came from this first translation.
In 1947, in some Qumran caves near the Dead Sea, a virtual library of books was discovered. In cave #4 at this site, manuscripts were discovered, fully in tact. These manuscripts and scrolls, the paper and ink, were all dated to before AD 68. Within these ancient texts were included almost the entire Hebrew Bible (the Christian Old Testament). The book of Esther was the only book not located at this time. When compared with the Textus Recepticus, it was determined that, aside from some very minor spelling variations, the texts were the same, with no wording differences. Multiple copies of some of these books were found, including Genesis, Deuteronomy, and Isaiah.
Some of these books document predictions of certain events which have only
occurred within the last 60 years. These were found to be accurately predicted to within the proper season of the year. The book itself dates back to before AD 68.
Would such a prediction be of interest?
The book of Ezekiel was to have been written during the time of Babylonian rule over Israel. Nebuchadnezzar was ruler over Babylon at the time. The prophet Ezekiel made a prediction of when the people of Israel would become an independent nation again, after their appointed punishment. Taking his prediction, in conjunction with the laws, written in the book of Leviticus, and following the Israelite lunar calendar of 30-day months, and 360-day years, the timing of when Israel, once again, became an independent nation was accurate, up to the Spring of 1948.
Ezekiel 4:3-6 - "This will be a sign to the house of Israel. Lie also on your
left side, and lay the iniquity of the house of Israel upon it. According to the
number of the days that you lie on it, you shall bear their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days, so you shall bear the iniquity of the house of Israel. And when you have completed them, lie again on your right side; then you shall bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days. I have laid on you a day for each year."
Ezekiel states that this sign would be 430 years of punishment. This additional captivity began at the end of the first 70 years of predicted captivity in Babylon (Jeremiah 25:11). When deducting the 70 years already endured in Babylon, which ended in 536 BC, there were still 360 years remaining. However, when freed, near 95% of the captives remained in Babylon by choice.
By this alone, Israel should have been back in their own lands by 176 BC, with all its people returning. Why has so much time passed before Israel became an independent nation again? Was the Bible wrong? No. It was not. Although there are 66 books, they each support the others. The explanation is in the Mosaic Laws, in Leviticus 26. In this area of scriptures, God declared 4 times that if the people did not repent of their disobedience, after the time of punishment, then what was previously decreed would be multiplied by 7.
Leviticus 26:18 - "And after all this, if you do not obey Me, then I will punish
you seven times more for your sins."
Since the greatest majority refused to repent and return to the land of Israel,
the remaining 360 Biblical years was multiplied by 7. This meant that the Jews would remain without an independent nation for another 2,520 Biblical years, from 536 BC.
This time began at the time of the Feast of Passover, on the 14th day of the month of Nisan. The Biblical year, as before stated, was made of twelve 30-day months, making a 360-day year. To convert this to our calendar:
2,520 Biblical Years times 360 days/Biblical Year equals 907,200 days. Divide
these days by 365.25 days/Calendar Year equals 2,483.8 Calendar Years.
536.4 BC MINUS 2,483.8 Calendar Years equals AD 1974.4. Add one year, as there is no year zero (0) between 1 BC and AD 1, equals AD 1948.4.
In the spring of AD 1948, on May 14th, Israel declared their independence. At midnight, on the morning of May 15th.
This information should show that there is more to these books than many give credit. In this instance, a man, an ordinary man, was able to predict, to the appropriate season, when Israel would become a nation again...more than 2,500 years before it happened.
Godless, back on 6/4/05, you made a statement that "No one can predict the
future." I would have to agree with you, if modified to "No one can predict the future, without outside assistance." This outside assistance could only be if the One giving the assistance had either been there, or was not bound by Time. In such an instance, the Future would be no different than the Past. For such a situation, the Future could easily be communicated to others.
Wsioynw, if the writers of these old scriptures were making this stuff up, as you suggested a few weeks ago, then I would believe this statement from Godless as presented. However, this information presented is historically accurate. Do some study, and you will see that this is all precisely as it happened.
Personally, I cannot look at such information, and not realize that there is
something more to this Book than a bunch of stories; and that such cohesion between the books could not be, without there being some greater knowledge behind them. The way this information can still have a bearing in today's world, as it did, less than 60 years ago tells me that what is written here is still viable for today's world. The only way that I would know of for the accuracy of these
statements, so far in advance, lead me to think that Time has no real meaning for this great power. Yet these same writings also make other claims.
These claims are that:
2 Timothy 3:16 - "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable
for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness"
Jeremiah 1:9 - "Then the Lord put forth His hand and touched my mouth, and the Lord said unto me, 'Behold, I have put My Words in your mouth.'"
2 Peter 1:20, 21 - "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is on any
private interpretation, for prophesy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit."
and that God is looking for a relationship with His only creation to which He gave the "Breath of Life". It is that "Breath" that gives a soul/spirit. This
creature is mankind.
Other research has been done into the writings of the Jewish Torah, and
comparisons have been made with other "spiritual scriptures" including the Quran and the Talmud. Other discoveries have been found in the Torah (Christian Old Testament) that will verify the accuracy of these scriptures in comparison to
others.
Other discoveries include:
- Advanced Medical/Sanitation practices for the time period
- Archaeological confirmation of Biblical accounts of events such as "the
Exodus" from Egypt, and the Tower of Babel
- Specific mathematical patterns and coding that couldn't have been added
by human intelligence, while simultaneously retaining historical accuracy
This information can be provided, and reference materials for these findings can also be provided, although there is more information than can fit on a single post.
From this one primary example of the accuracy of the predictions of the Bible over such a long period of time (reaching up into today's time), the archaeological evidence of the personages of the scriptures, the cohesion between the 44 some odd authors over a period of 16 centuries, and the mathematical impossibilities of the occurrences in the scriptures of accurate history combined with "equidistant letter spacing" phrases, it appears that the scriptures in the Torah (Old Testament) as well as the New Testament seems to be to be accurate in every provable way.
This being the case, it would be logical to assume that the unprovable points
would also be accurate, and worth taking as fact, on the authority of the
Scriptures, themselves.
These scriptures state that God is who He claims to be, and that there are
absolute truths in this world which He created.
JME - you need to realise that if you spout enough numbers then you can make them fit any other number / date - anything you want.John Mark E said:
Not only that - but "predictions" have to be made and identified BEFORE the event. It is no good looking at an historical book and saying: "Oh, if you move this number over here, multiply it by that, then you get the date of the start of WW2."
You need to identify the "prediction" PRIOR to the event - otherwise it is merely subjective interpretation.
There is no doubting that many of the Bible's characters existed, or that some events described in it happened.
But much of it is unsubstantiated subjective interpretation involving significant hyperbole in order to make a point.
seenthe program where they managed to make predictions using moby dick
John Mark E
Registered Senior Member
Sarkus said:
And you need to realize that there are times to let go of skepticism. This is one of those times.
Sarkus said:
Yes, predictions had to be made before an even occurred, else it would not be a prediction. Identifying it beforehand, though, is not so necessary. It would make the fulfillment of such a statement relatively easy for anyone to try to duplicate, in order for that individual, or group, to take credit for the fulfillment of the prophesy.
Instead, what we have is a prediction that was made far in advance, and designed in such as way so that the credit for its fulfillment could not be given to any human. The credit must be given to God, as only He can make such a statement, so long ago, and yet have it come to pass specifically at the time He said it would.
The words of Scripture are not random stories and lessons. I believe that each word written in the original Hebrew text was, for lack of a better term, quoted to those who wrote them down...verbatim. This is why there has been so little change to the original text over thousands of years, and how the statements written can be shown accurate still to this day.
You only have to know that most of the people in the world are christians to prove god is real, so many people cant be wrong, it's impossible.
stu43t said:Yeah - Once upon a time a similar number of people believed the world was flat -
The world isn't flat?There is no skepticism - just a lack of evidence on your part.John Mark E said:
John Mark E said:
You have seen all the "predictions" identified in "Moby Dick", haven't you?
Take any large enough text, in any language, and you will find "predictions" if you look hard enough.
Irrelevant.John Mark E said:
You HAVE to provide the prediction up front - not after the event - otherwise it is just playing with numbers to fit the known detail - which is nothing more than a mathematical game.
No we don't - we have an event that happened - and then someone fitting in some numbers to make it look as though there was a prediction. But the supposed "prediction" came AFTER the event - and is thus not evidence of anything other than manipulation of numbers/details etc.John Mark E said:
Nor are the stories in "Lord of the Rings". Doesn't say much, though, does it.John Mark E said:
Then that's where I think YOU need to apply a bit of skepticism.John Mark E said:
There has been VAST changes to the original texts - all to suit the politics and beliefs of those transcribing them.John Mark E said:
John Mark E
Registered Senior Member
Sarkus said:
Show me one?
I didn't realize you understood the Hebrew language that well to be able to provide such definitive proof of such changes. Or perhaps you are thinking of the wording changes made to the English translations that, regretably, have been made as different generations have tried to second-guess the meaning of the original text. I, myself, still use the KJV and NKJV, which, as previously stated, was a direct translation from the original Hebrew. Most of the other "modified" versions have generally begun from the English translations already in existence.
And, No, I haven't ever seen the predictions in Moby Dick. What's your point? And the Lord of the Rings is not random stories. It is all the same story, written as fiction. It was never written to be a factual account, unlike the Bible. How about no "apples to oranges" comparisons. How about comparing something that is meant to be fact compared to something else meant to be fact. So again, what's your point?
Check this out for a moment...
all religons and all religious documentation,..speak or tell a story of a god or gods!!
Thats one point that most faith's can agree on...
have you ever stopped to notice how most of these stories speak of their "god" or "gods" ascending or descending from the skies!!,.. isn't it kind of bizzare to see some sort of connection with the skies....
If I did have a time machine and went back say 2000-3000BC, piloted a helicopter in a flight suit and landed in the middle of Jerusalem market square, What would people at that particular time think of me???,....definitely not a pilot!!!!.....Think about that!!
all religons and all religious documentation,..speak or tell a story of a god or gods!!
Thats one point that most faith's can agree on...
have you ever stopped to notice how most of these stories speak of their "god" or "gods" ascending or descending from the skies!!,.. isn't it kind of bizzare to see some sort of connection with the skies....
If I did have a time machine and went back say 2000-3000BC, piloted a helicopter in a flight suit and landed in the middle of Jerusalem market square, What would people at that particular time think of me???,....definitely not a pilot!!!!.....Think about that!!
Yes, but here is the difference between invented gods and the real God: The supernatural is something that could never have been invented by the most inventive human person. The supernatural is a new song, a new music coming from above that never entered man’s head. In some way you can prove the Divinity of Christ by saying no human being would ever have invented a God who chose to take the form of a slave, to suffer and to die, to re-open for us the gates of Heaven, Humanly speaking, it is sheer madness.
John Mark E
Registered Senior Member
KennyJC said:
Thank you for making my point. Most of the "factual" writings trying to be predictive are either extremely vaugue, with any number of interpretations, or come out plainly wrong. Yet the example I offered previously, from a document which the COPIES were dated to be around 2,000 years old, still either: 1) just by chance HAPPENED to work out EXACTLY as what was written, or 2) actually foretold what was going to happening.
II Peter 1:19-21 - "We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."
The example was given as "a sign to the house of Israel". Had Israel been properly repentant of their rebellious nature, there would have been no cause for the extension of their punishment, and their nation, according to this text, would have become a nation again in 176 BC. This is why the "prophesy" was written as it was. As they were not, the law was involked, extending their captivity by 7 times. As the captivity was already dealing with hundreds of years, this easily stretches to over a thousand years, into our day and age.
John Mark E
Registered Senior Member
Vega said:
John Mark E
Registered Senior Member
Vega said:
What about them? They never claimed to be perfect. In fact, this is probably the only "history" book that shows the "key players" having faults: some of which are severe.
And yet, the Bible never claims to be the words of spiritual or holy men. It claims that the written words were given to these people by God, Himself.
2 Timothy 3:16 - "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable
for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness"