Protecting You From Your Doctor

[adoucette]

Homicide and suicide are uncommon causes of death, but when they occur in children, they are often considered accidents. Especially when caused by other children.

Conveniently the CDC breaks out intentional from accidental, even with children. Homicide is not accidental.

None of this takes away from the fact that firearms contribute significantly to death in children.

Not particularly.
Of the Accidental deaths that CDC tracks, accidental deaths by firearm for kids less that 14 are the lowest single cause, well below falls. (total 65, the same as Acute Bronchitis)

Then why not refuse to answer the question? There isn't a reason to ban speech.

Never said I wanted to ban speech. Just don't want that question to become part of the standard protocol, and in a DB "refuses to answer" would be treated as a YES, because very few people who don't own guns would refuse to answer.

By the way, why do you go to walmart? Do you live in a trailer?

Only very rarely do I go to Walmart, just using it as an example of how cheap and easy it is to buy a rifle and ammo.

What evidence is there of a plan to create a national gun registry? What would a registry matter at all?

http://www.healthtruthrevealed.com/articles/12533433712/article

 

[adoucette]

Sure it is. Gun ownership is a demographic correlated with a higher risk of certain injuries and illnesses.

What Illness is gun ownership correlated with?

This isn't any different from asking about other lifestyle habits which contribute to such outcomes.

Yes it is.
If I smoke I have a HIGH risk of getting various diseases and the doctor can actually precsribe things to help me get over my addiction.
If I own a gun I have only a TINY risk of accidental injury and no change at all in any illnesses I might come down with and finally there's no medicine or treatment that a doctor can offer since gun ownership is not a medical condition.

 

[adoucette]

According to my source, 71% of all childhood deaths result from accidents.

No they don't.

And even your own source for that 71% number does not say that.

"Diseases" is not a single cause of death but even if it were, according to the CDC, non labor and delivery deaths in childres still pale in number as compared to accidents.

Again you are so wrong as to wonder if you are trying to deliberately mislead people on the cause of death of Children under the age of 15?

Note: in all my discussions I have not included these two catagories from the causes of childhood death due to disease because they are not typically disease related:

Certain conditions originating in the perinatal period.. (P00–P96)
Congenital malformations, deformations and chromosomal
abnormalities .. (Q00–Q99)

They account for 21,241 deaths, mostly in the < 1 year old group.

But that still leaves Diseases causing over twice as many deaths in kids under 15 than are killed by accidents.

From the CDC:

Total deaths in children up to age 15 = 39,988
Take away the 21,241 deaths for perinatal and congenital leaves 18,747 total deaths.

Take out 184 for suicide leaves 18,563 total deaths

Take out 1,096 for homicide leaves 17,467 total deaths.

That removes all the causes that aren't Disease or Accident related.

Thus the SUM of deaths from both Accidents and Diseases for kids up to the age of 15 is 17,467.

There are 5,067 deaths from Accidents of ALL types plus 186 for non-medical but undetermined causes which I also include in Accidents for a total of 5,253 Accidental Deaths.

Which leaves 12,214 deaths due to disease.

Over twice as many as Accidents.

Arthur

 

[WillNever]

Not particularly.
Of the Accidental deaths that CDC tracks, accidental deaths by firearm for kids less that 14 are the lowest single cause, well below falls. (total 65, the same as Acute Bronchitis)

Suicides and homicides in children are due to firearms insecurity. If 40% of parents owning guns aren't securing them correctly, education and inquiry is warranted.[/quote]

Never said I wanted to ban speech. Just don't want that question to become part of the standard protocol, and in a DB "refuses to answer" would be treated as a YES, because very few people who don't own guns would refuse to answer.

Only very rarely do I go to Walmart, just using it as an example of how cheap and easy it is to buy a rifle and ammo.

http://www.healthtruthrevealed.com/articles/12533433712/article

Where in that chat-site is there evidence of a gun registry plan?

Fining or imprisoning people for asking questions is a ban on speech. It makes it illegal to ask that question.

 

[WillNever]

What Illness is gun ownership correlated with?

Gunshot wounds.

 

[adoucette]

Gunshot wounds.

Gunshot wounds are not an illness.

Your claim to be a nurse is now suspect.

Arthur

 

[adoucette]

Suicides and homicides in children are due to firearms insecurity.

First the other statistic provided by the same authors is false in that 10% of deaths of children under the age of 15 are not caused by firearms, it's 6%, and the majority of those deaths (90%) are homicides, which are most often comitted by adults and thus has nothing to do with firearm insecurity or kids getting a hold of guns. Even the accidental deaths are not all because a kid got a hold of a gun, but simply because an adult did something stupid and the kid was killed.

In any case, your interpretation is not what your blurb said.
It did not mention at all what the relation of Suicides and Homicides in children are to firearms insecurity.

If 40% of parents owning guns aren't securing them correctly, education and inquiry is warranted.

Education might be warranted.
Inquiry about my current status as a gun owner is not.
I see my doctor about once every 6 months or so. I can buy a gun on the way home.

Where in that chat-site is there evidence of a gun registry plan?

If the question becomes part of the standard protocol, as you suggest it should be, then with the advent of our National Health Database you will have a defacto gun registry.

Fining or imprisoning people for asking questions is a ban on speech. It makes it illegal to ask that question.

Not really.
We make asking questions about a number of things illegal to do, as to employment for instance.

Arthur

 

[WillNever]

Gunshot wounds are not an illness.

Your claim to be a nurse is now suspect.

Arthur

Certainly they're an illness. Being wounded by anything can be considered an illness. Anything that interrupts physiological integrity and function can be considered an illness. You're interpreting "illness" in a very strict way is all.

By the way, I've doubted that your dead wife was a nurse since the beginning. I also doubt if you were married, or if you are an adult.

 

[WillNever]

Education might be warranted.
Inquiry about my current status as a gun owner is not.
I see my doctor about once every 6 months or so. I can buy a gun on the way home.

Education and inquiry are linked. If you can buy guns anyway, then why the upset over doctors asking that?

If the question becomes part of the standard protocol, as you suggest it should be, then with the advent of our National Health Database you will have a defacto gun registry.

Not really.
We make asking questions about a number of things illegal to do, as to employment for instance.

Arthur

Doctors are allowed to ask about your occupation. There is no evidence that such a database will be used as a gun registry. Define what you mean by "gun registry." Do you mean a public list?

 

[adoucette]

Certainly they're an illness. Being wounded by anything can be considered an illness. Anything that interrupts physiological integrity and function can be considered an illness. You're interpreting "illness" in a very strict way is all.

Yeah, I use the dictionary definition of illness.

Which does not include a gun shot.

As Wiki says Illness: Illness and sickness are generally used as synonyms for disease

By the way, I've doubted that your dead wife was a nurse since the beginning. I also doubt if you were married, or if you are an adult.

http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtopic=27650&view=findpost&p=452354

http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtopic=12722&view=findpost&p=183950

http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtopic=12722&view=findpost&p=326617

 

[WillNever]

Yeah, I use the dictionary definition of illness.

Which does not include a gun shot.

As Wiki says Illness: Illness and sickness are generally used as synonyms for disease

You are using a layperson definition. I am using a nursing definition.

http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtopic=27650&view=findpost&p=452354

http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtopic=12722&view=findpost&p=183950

http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtopic=12722&view=findpost&p=326617

Not sure what, if anything, these signify. Was your wife a cuban refugee?

 

[adoucette]

They are reasonable proof that my wife was a pediatric nurse back in the 80s.
Those posts are from long ago and I had no reason to make any of that up.

Pamela was not a Cuban refugee.
She went to nursing school at Norfolk General in the late 70s.

 

[WillNever]

It's reasonable proof that you post about her on various websites.

and I had no reason to make any of that up.

Nor do you have any reason to bring her up.

 

[adoucette]

The only reason I did so was because it mentions that my wife was a nurse.
Which was one of several doubts you specifically raised.

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

There are NO valid reasons for health-care professionals to ask whether I own a gun.

Psychiatrists, clinical psychologists and non-M.D. psychotherapists are health-care professionals and they certainly need the information. Many people can't afford professional counseling and/or have hangups about it, so the responsibility falls on their family physician. Sometimes even to a priest or other religious leader.

My objection is that doctor-patient confidentiality must always trump the government's constant sticking of its nose into our business.

"Those who would sacrifice a little bit of freedom for a little bit of security will eventually end up with neither. And that's exactly what they deserve." -- often credited to Ben Franklin but he admitted that he got it from someone else whose identity is lost to history--which is why I feel free to embellish it.​

 

[adoucette]

Psychiatrists, clinical psychologists and non-M.D. psychotherapists are health-care professionals and they certainly need the information.

No, they certainly don't need that information.

If they are concerned that I'm suicidal then they have to presume that I might lie about having a gun anyway and that even if I don't currently own a gun there is nothing to prevent me from buying a gun and ammo on the way home, so the fact of my owning a gun at that particular time is not at all relevant to any medical treatment they would give me.

If you claim it is, then simply tell me what specifically they would do differently if I answered YES to that question vs NO and why it would be appropriate to presume "Not Today" is the same as "I'll never own a gun".

Arthur

 

[WillNever]

No, they certainly don't need that information.

If they are concerned that I'm suicidal then they have to presume that I might lie about having a gun anyway and that even if I don't currently own a gun there is nothing to prevent me from buying a gun and ammo on the way home, so the fact of my owning a gun at that particular time is not at all relevant to any medical treatment they would give me.

If you claim it is, then simply tell me what specifically they would do differently if I answered YES to that question vs NO and why it would be appropriate to presume "Not Today" is the same as "I'll never own a gun".

Arthur

Evidence has shown that most people with suicidal ideations admit when they have the plan and the means instead of lie about it. You can argue it as much as you want, but that is the basis for current guidelines. Nothing stops you from buying a gun, but research has proven that most people won't go out and do that if intervened upon. There isn't evidence that patients will lie on this issue more often than telling the truth.

 

[adoucette]

Evidence has shown that most people with suicidal ideations admit when they have the plan and the means instead of lie about it.

What evidence?
You are big on words, light on facts.

The fact is everyone has the MEANS. Guns are just one of the methods for killing oneself but there are so many other methods that to even ask if one has the means is frigging stupid.
Everyone has the means.

You can argue it as much as you want, but that is the basis for current guidelines. Nothing stops you from buying a gun, but research has proven that most people won't go out and do that if intervened upon.

Again, present evidence of same, not just your assertions of same.

There isn't evidence that patients will lie on this issue more often than telling the truth.

Source?

Again, there is absoutly NO DIFFERENCE in how you would treat a patient based on their answer to the question, "Do you own a gun?" and thus it is not relevant to any medical treatment.

You claim there is, then tell me specifically how you would alter the treatment based on the answer to that question?
The answer of course is there is no difference in treatment because guns are just one of many different methods of killing oneself, and so if one is judged to be that suicidal, if they answer they don't have a gun doesn't mean a damn thing if they also happen to know of any bridges on the way home, tall buildings, where to buy rat poison, or procur a bottle of tylenol or a short length of rope, or a sharp knife etc etc etc.....

Note, the answer to this has to come from a standard medical text indicating the different treatment based on the answer to this question.

Arthur

 

[WillNever]

Source: my psychiatric nursing reference

According to this text, asking about suicidal thoughts is a professional responsibility that leads to a decrease in isolation and an increase in problem resolution. Generally, according to the APA, people who contemplate suicide are receptive to talking about the crisis.

It then goes on to show which specific questions are most useful to ask.

I also linked an image earlier that stated that evidence-based practice emphasized the importance of asking about suicidal feelings. All of these statements are cited in-text, most of them sourced to the APA.

No one here is "light on facts." You're just light on your capacity to understand suicidal ideation

 

[adoucette]

Source: my psychiatric nursing reference

Except this reference does NOT support these previous statements you made:

Evidence has shown that most people with suicidal ideations admit when they have the plan and the means instead of lie about it.

research has proven that most people won't go out and do that if intervened upon.

There isn't evidence that patients will lie on this issue more often than telling the truth.

So I take it you aren't actually going to provide a reference to support these assertions?

According to this text, asking about suicidal thoughts is a professional responsibility that leads to a decrease in isolation and an increase in problem resolution. Generally, according to the APA, people who contemplate suicide are receptive to talking about the crisis.

No it doesn't say GENERALLY, it says OFTEN. They have somewhat different meanings Will. Generally would imply more often than not, but just using the term "Often" simply means they do do it enough that it's worth asking about, but doesn't imply more than half the time.

Why do you feel the need to change the words used to try to make your point?

It then goes on to show which specific questions are most useful to ask.

It does, and none of those specific questions it suggests are "Do you own a gun?"

I also linked an image earlier that stated that evidence-based practice emphasized the importance of asking about suicidal feelings. All of these statements are cited in-text, most of them sourced to the APA.

No one here is "light on facts." You're just light on your capacity to understand.

Right, and what is clear is none of the text you site says to ask the question:

DO YOU OWN A GUN?

It asks about their suicide plans.

Again, you have NOT shown where any treatment would be different if the answer to the question of "Do you own a gun?" is YES.

Why?
Because the treatment would be no different then if the patient knows where they can get a length of rope, or find a bridge or a tall building or a sharp knife or a jar of rat poison, or a bottle of tylenol or a gallon of gasoline or a car and a garage or .....

The fact is, if you determine a patient is planning on killing themselves the means is simply not that important. You either commit them to treatment or you let them go home, but the ownership of a gun is not going to be the deciding factor considering how easy it is to buy or acquire a gun.

Thus the question that you think is so important is in fact not very important at all.

Arthur