Protecting You From Your Doctor

Also, right now, the current standard of practice for doctors and nurses in risk assessment for people who are suspected of having the potential for self-harm is to confront them and ask them directly (1) do they plan on harming themselves and (2) do they have a plan to do so and (3) do they have the means. By law, patients lose the right to confidentiality after suggesting they want to hurt themselves and mandatory reporting becomes necessary for the healthcare professional interviewing them. This prevention method has been shown to be "best practice" in preventing the greatest number of accidents and suicides.

So... suck on that. :cool:

source: I am a nurse
 
WillNever said:
Guys, this is old news. This bill has been in the works for at least FOUR months. That they passed a very crumby version of it does not surprise.

By the way, it is mainly pediatricians who ask if parents own guns. The reason for doing so is to assess the potential for accidents and to educate.

Right now, pediatricians ask whether parents own a gun in order to promote safety (suggesting ammunition and the gun be separately locked in two places rather than one, etc). The reason they do this is because the #1 cause of death in children is due to accidents instead of diseases, by a factor of about 7.
Click to expand...

No its not.

See table 10

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr58/nvsr58_19.pdf

Let's use 1-24 as children (helps your argument actually, worse if we cut off at 14)

73,970 deaths, of which 11,736 were Non Accidental, but not disease, leaving 62,234 deaths, but only 20,964 were Accidental, thus 41,270 were for medical reasons.

Now if you take out the ~21,000 Pre-natal and Congenital deaths, which one could argue aren't DISEASE, you still have about 20,000 disease related to 20,000 Accidental.


Child safety has l ong been in the scope of practice of pediatricians, and it has long been routine for pediatricians to ask about and educate parents on child safety, including pool fences, seat belts, smoke detectors, and such... and no one complains about that. Why is gun safety a private issue when those other safety issues are not?
Click to expand...

Slightly different issue, this was originally about a doctor asking a patient if THEY owned a gun, so it wasn't about a Pediatrician discussing safety issues with a parent, but even so, discussing gun safety would be FAR down on the list since so few kids are killed in gun accidents.

Indeed, they should spend all their time talking about CAR SEATS, since 62% of kids deaths are due to transport, followed by 16% from poison, followed by 7% for drowning, followed by 3% for Fire, followed by 2% for fallling, indeed, OTHER represents 10%, leaving just 1% for accidental firearm deaths (lowest thing they even track by type), which means if your doc is talking to you about gun safety, he should only be doing it after all these other things have been covered.

Having been married to a Pediatric Nurse I can assure you there isn't that much time in the day for that depth of discussion.

No one here gives a shit about your treatment.
Click to expand...

Except you, being a nurse, can still not show how my owning a gun has ANYTHING to do with the care my doctor provides me.

Indeed no doctor has EVER asked me that and yet after all these decades I'm still in fine health.
 
Also, right now, the current standard of practice for doctors and nurses in risk assessment for people who are suspected of having the potential for self-harm is to confront them and ask them directly (1) do they plan on harming themselves and (2) do they have a plan to do so and (3) do they have the means.
Click to expand...

Will's correct, my Mom's a psych RN...and I'm a long-time consumer of mental health services.
Killing oneself does not require a gun, but guns make it a lot easier, therefore possibly more tempting.

Based on WHAT evidence?

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0927105201.htm

Arthur
Click to expand...

Those are the people getting economically walloped the hardest ATM-don't have a degree, too old to really be re-employed at much, too young to retire.

No mystery why they're killing themselves.
 
Last edited:
adoucette said:
No its not.
Click to expand...

Yes it is. No single cause of death comes even close to being #1 in children as accidents. I have the professional literature to back it up, too. You don't. The table you posted confirms that the single highest cause of death is accidents. Trying to add up every other single cause of death and disease that exists and presenting is a single giant cause of death, in order to try and trump that number, won't work.

Directly from my very current pediatric nursing reference:
66511516.jpg

That reads that 71% of all deaths in children 10 onward result from accidents that include unintentional injury, suicide, homicide, and motor vehicle crashes.

Read it and weep.

As well, another alarming bit:
guns2e.jpg


40% of gun owners with children don't secure their firearms safely.

adoucette said:
Based on WHAT evidence?

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/09/100927105201.htm

Arthur
Click to expand...
What are you hoping to accomplish by posting these odd, irrelevant links that aren't correlated with what we are talking about? It's been proven by research that direct, confrontation inquiry leads to the best outcomes in suicide risk patients. Lack of probing is linked to worse outcomes. I'm unsure why it would surprise you that doing nothing leads to more problems than intervening.

Avoid citing tables from online documents that you can't interpret well. This is a discussion that you haven't a prayer of winning. :cool:
 
Last edited:
adoucette said:
Having been married to a Pediatric Nurse I can assure you there isn't that much time in the day for that depth of discussion.
Click to expand...
Every admission to every hospital receives a lengthy interview that includes questions about health maintenance and promotion in the home. Your wife is unintelligent and you should have married better.
 
Last edited:
adoucette said:
No its not.

See table 10

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr58/nvsr58_19.pdf

Let's use 1-24 as children (helps your argument actually, worse if we cut off at 14)
Click to expand...

By the way, your table reads that in children 1-4, ~4703 deaths occur. Of those, over 2500 of them are caused by accidents. The next biggest ones are homicide and suicide which are typically included in the umbrella of "accidents." Even if we didn't include those, 2500 of 4703 characterizes accidents as the number one cause of death. The same pattern holds true throughout the rest of childhood, and the next leading cause of death outside of all those is a disease that comprises a tiny percentage of deaths.

Learn to read tables.. avoid citing complications of labor and delivery as a cause of childhood death.

Another gov't souce that reinforces my statements.
 
Last edited:
I believe my doctor phrased it as "do you have access to a gun?"

I answered yes, of course I do. Everyone I know owns a gun. My mom owns a gun.

I noticed the wording right away. I think most people would have to answer a question framed that way in the positive.
 
milkweed said:
I believe my doctor phrased it as "do you have access to a gun?"

I answered yes, of course I do. Everyone I know owns a gun. My mom owns a gun.

I noticed the wording right away. I think most people would have to answer a question framed that way in the positive.
Click to expand...

It isn't framed as a positive. It's framed in a way that maximizes risk assessment potential. "Do you own a gun?" doesn't elicit as much information as "do you have access to a gun?"
 
WillNever said:
It isn't framed as a positive. It's framed in a way that maximizes risk assessment potential. "Do you own a gun?" doesn't elicit as much information as "do you have access to a gun?"
Click to expand...

I didnt say it was framed as a positive. I said it was framed to promote a positive response. I live in rural minnesota. It is unusual for people around here to not have at least a .22. And the doctors around here know this.

Maybe its not that way where you are. So my doc knows I wasnt lying to him, nor was I paranoid about the 'gov'ment' putting my name on a list.

I will be more careful next time. When asked I will say "no... Wait, I can borrow my moms gun if I need it. Is that what you mean by access? "

Blink blink...

So, how would you enter it in the chart? Yes? Maybe? No?
 
WillNever said:
Yes it is. No single cause of death comes even close to being #1 in children as accidents. I have the professional literature to back it up, too. You don't. The table you posted confirms that the single highest cause of death is accidents. Trying to add up every other single cause of death and disease that exists and presenting is a single giant cause of death, in order to try and trump that number, won't work.

Directly from my very current pediatric nursing reference:
66511516.jpg

That reads that 71% of all deaths in children 1-10 result from accidents that include unintentional injury, suicide, homicide, and motor vehicle crashes.

Read it and weep.
Click to expand...

I read it and you are WRONG.

It does NOT say Children from 1 to 10.

It says Children FROM 10 ONWARD.

Big difference.

Of course you want to leave out the children less than 10 since that's where so many of the medical deaths occur.

And nice attempt at moving the goal posts.

You said: the #1 cause of death in children is due to accidents instead of diseases, by a factor of about 7.

Diseases PLURAL

So you can't now say the issue was: No single cause of death comes even close to being #1 in children as accidents.

You were asserting that accidents cause 7 times as many deaths as diseases in children and the FACTS do NOT support that at all.

Even if we limit the numbers to the ages >1 and < 15 (which leaves out the 20,000 deaths from neo-natal and congenital, which I agree are not disease)

You get 10,850 deaths of which 5,953 are from Disease, 3,782 are from accidents and 1,115 are from Suicide, Homicide, UnD, and Medical procedure.

So disease is still running a tad shy of twice the rate of accidents.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr58/nvsr58_19.pdf

Arthur
 
Last edited:
WillNever said:
By the way, your table reads that in children 1-4, ~4703 deaths occur. Of those, over 2500 of them are caused by accidents. The next biggest ones are homicide and suicide which are typically included in the umbrella of "accidents." Even if we didn't include those, 2500 of 4703 characterizes accidents as the number one cause of death. The same pattern holds true throughout the rest of childhood, and the next leading cause of death outside of all those is a disease that comprises a tiny percentage of deaths.

Learn to read tables.. avoid citing complications of labor and delivery as a cause of childhood death.
Click to expand...

LOL

You need to learn to read the tables.

The number of ACCIDENTS is NOT 2,500, it is just 1,588 which covers codes (V01–X59,Y85–Y86)

Every line INDENTED under Accidents is just a breakdown of the total accidents.

There were 581 Transport Accidents and 1,007 Non-Transport accidents that made up the 1,588 Accidental deaths.

There were 470 deaths due to Homicide, undetermined and Medical procedures.

Take the ACCIDENTS + the Homicides, Und, Med from total and that leaves 2,645 MEDICAL deaths, primarily from diseases in the 1-4 age group.

Now to put firearms in proper perspective, there were but 18 accidental firearm deaths in this group or 1% of the accidents and .4% of all deaths.

As to Accidental deaths, again Transport got the most at 581, Drowning got 458, Fire got 201, Falls got 36, Poisoning got 34 and Other got 260.

A pediatrician should REALLY be talking to the parents about Car Seats and not leaving toddlers in the bath tub alone. Everything else is pretty small in comparison.

Arthur
 
WillNever said:
Every admission to every hospital receives a lengthy interview that includes questions about health maintenance and promotion in the home. Your wife is unintelligent and you should have married better.
Click to expand...

When I admitted my wife to the hospital there were no questions on it about if she owned a gun.

Oh, and my wife was very intelligent.

Arthur
 
WillNever said:
What are you hoping to accomplish by posting these odd, irrelevant links that aren't correlated with what we are talking about? It's been proven by research that direct, confrontation inquiry leads to the best outcomes in suicide risk patients. Lack of probing is linked to worse outcomes. I'm unsure why it would surprise you that doing nothing leads to more problems than intervening. :
Click to expand...

YOU made the assertion.
I asked for you to support your assertion.
You have not done so.
I simply posted a link showing that the rate of suicide is going up, which seems counter to your claim that increasing confrontation is having a positive impact on suicide rates.

So are you going to back up your assertion?

Arthur
 
WillNever said:
As well, another alarming bit:
guns2e.jpg
Click to expand...

Except we can see clearly from the CDC data that the claim that 10% of childhood deaths are NOT caused by Firearm ACCIDENTS.

Indeed it doesn't come close to causing even 10% of ACCIDENTAL deaths.

Accidental discharge of firearms .........(W32–W34) caused but 220 deaths in kids from 1 to 24 where as Accidents caused 20,964, or ONE PERCENT.

Of Total deaths, not including prenatal and congenital, it's less than half a percent.

So HOW do you get that number? well first by INFLATING it with the Homicide number and Suicide number and then including up to age 24 as KIDS.

The CDC has 264 homicides by firearm up to age 15, but from 15 to 24 they have 4,669. So MOST of these are NOT actually by KIDS.
Similarly they have 53 suicides up to the age 15, but from 15 to 24 they have 1,900. So again, MOST of these are not done by KIDS.


http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr58/nvsr58_19.pdf

Arthur
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top