Proof there is a God
- Thread starter JBrentonK
- Start date
Your problems are the unpacking, and, the need to unpack.
Aside from giving evidence of intelligent design, what is the purpose of this link?
jan.
The personal God is the same, it is the relationship that differs.
A good analogy is a large family. The parents of the siblings always remains the same, but each sibling has a unique relationship with their parents.
What is the human realm?
Replace U.P. with God, and not only do you automatically become a theist, you can join an impersonalist religion.
jan.
Why do you think there are definitely not any life-forms in the universe at least as equally as intelligent that might discover these things as well?
So you know (for a fact) that consciousness can't arise out of gross matter, through reading books, analysing scripture?
Don't be hypocritical.
Jan's faith that God created life on earth, not evolution, over rules well established facts.
For example earth is 4.6 billion years old and the first life forms for at least a billion years were anaerobic as there was no oxygen in the atmosphere until green plants began making it, less than 1 billion years ago:
BTW, those "extreme airless habitats" are the guts of animals, man included, where they help break down complex foods, like starches, into simple sugars that man and other animals can use for energy.
If you want facts, instead of faith based opinions, on how life evolved on Earth, read all 8 in this series.
Here is small part from section 4:
"Life and Earth’s atmosphere evolved together. Over time, tiny photosynthetic organisms produced enough oxygen to react with the methane in the atmosphere, transforming it forever. About two billion years ago, the methane haze cleared and the sky turned blue."
As the solar out put ~ 4 billion years ago was only about 70% of what it is today, that powerfull green house gas, methane, CH4, as the atmosphere is the only reason there could be liquid water on Earth.
A huge number of various versions of trilobites were among the first land animals. So many trilobite fossil have been found that buying a few, as I have, is cheap. They did not need as much oxygen as the later four legged animals did as they moved very slowly.
For example earth is 4.6 billion years old and the first life forms for at least a billion years were anaerobic as there was no oxygen in the atmosphere until green plants began making it, less than 1 billion years ago:
This is from part 5 of the Smithsonian's Museum of Natural History's eight part series.http://forces.si.edu/atmosphere/02_02_04.html said:
BTW, those "extreme airless habitats" are the guts of animals, man included, where they help break down complex foods, like starches, into simple sugars that man and other animals can use for energy.
If you want facts, instead of faith based opinions, on how life evolved on Earth, read all 8 in this series.
Here is small part from section 4:
"Life and Earth’s atmosphere evolved together. Over time, tiny photosynthetic organisms produced enough oxygen to react with the methane in the atmosphere, transforming it forever. About two billion years ago, the methane haze cleared and the sky turned blue."
As the solar out put ~ 4 billion years ago was only about 70% of what it is today, that powerfull green house gas, methane, CH4, as the atmosphere is the only reason there could be liquid water on Earth.
A huge number of various versions of trilobites were among the first land animals. So many trilobite fossil have been found that buying a few, as I have, is cheap. They did not need as much oxygen as the later four legged animals did as they moved very slowly.
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Write4U
Valued Senior Member
The latest adaption to spirituality is the FSM. I would not call this adaption or evolution.
But is is now a recognized religion (by law) in The Netherlands. Us Hollanders are a strange lot. Of course in Holland psychotropic drugs are legal.
But seriously, the problem is that scripture , being the revealed word of god is exempt from editing and inserting new knowledge. That would impact the Divinity of the Scripture.
Write4U
Valued Senior Member
So what?
I am already way earlier that that...60 - 70 thousand years earlier, when man was evolving a brain capable of abstract thought and oral traditions were communicated from generation to generation, until someone decided to write it all down, cherry picking the stories, in a book, which has been renamed and edited several times.. Torah, Bible, Quran, Book of Mormons. The same thing happened in Deism. Unfortunately, none were edited with latest scientific knowledge.
What happened to the "lost books" of the bible. Were those books not divine enough to be included?
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Write4U
Valued Senior Member
Yes, its called *critical thinking*, based on current scientific knowledge. You just *accept part and parcel* of 3000 year old retold mythology without question. Maybe that's your problem?
Write4U
Valued Senior Member
There you go, and those different relationships has caused untold disaster, from generation to generation.
That which is experiential in human reality.
No jan, Theistic Religions are specific beliefs in non-material sentient spirits. I have no such beliefs. Mathematics are not sentient in and of itself, but gave rise to sentience in humans. That does not make the mathematical function a God, it makes it a probabilistic *function*.
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exchemist
Valued Senior Member
You are Dutch?? I'd never have guessed.
Write4U
Valued Senior Member
As usual you mix up and twist different question into a single question, forcing me to parsing your post with two different answers.
a) *Consciousness* arises from gross matter, i.e. The physical neural network of the brain.
b) *Knowledge* comes from observation, reading books, and analyzing scientific data.
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I think that exchemist's comments back to me a few quotes above, probably capture best what I've been trying to say relating to 'tangible evidence,' etc...
Actually This has been the best thread for some time, in the religion forum. It has been very revealing, to say the least.
What was especially good was the lack of need to use biblical passages.
What is it that we can't, or won't comprehend?
Once you answer that then comprehension begins..
God can be proved through reason, and reason operates on an individual level.
Atheists deny God, and that has been shown in this thread time and time again.
They hide behind the mantra "there is no evidence", and when they get caught they become offensive.
God (math/eternal) bless.
Jan.
Physics predicts alternate universes and dimensions. Religions predicted the same thing thousands of years earlier. Alternate universes or realms was a way to explain the barrier that existed between material and spiritual realms.
For example in Greek Mythology;
Geographically, the Underworld was considered to have been surrounded by five rivers: the Acheron (river of woe), the Cocytus (river of lamentation), the Phlegethon (river of fire), the Styx (river of unbreakable oath by which the gods took vows), and the Lethe (river of forgetfulness). Past the rivers, a diamond gate, guarded by Cerberus, formed the entrance to the kingdom. Deep within the kingdom, lay Hades' vast palace, full with guests.
If you interpret the five rivers to be space-time (x,y,z,t) plus another linking dimension (Q), the ancients were doing modern applied physics. Hades could not be reached by the material body, but needed to be in the form of energy/information; soul.
The first four rivers are woe (x), lamentation (y), fire (t), unbreakable oath or instincts (z), while the last is forgetfulness (Q). Forgetfulness is different in that it detaches from the woes, lamination, unbreakable oat, pain/emotions (fire); (x,y,z,t).
For example in Greek Mythology;
Geographically, the Underworld was considered to have been surrounded by five rivers: the Acheron (river of woe), the Cocytus (river of lamentation), the Phlegethon (river of fire), the Styx (river of unbreakable oath by which the gods took vows), and the Lethe (river of forgetfulness). Past the rivers, a diamond gate, guarded by Cerberus, formed the entrance to the kingdom. Deep within the kingdom, lay Hades' vast palace, full with guests.
If you interpret the five rivers to be space-time (x,y,z,t) plus another linking dimension (Q), the ancients were doing modern applied physics. Hades could not be reached by the material body, but needed to be in the form of energy/information; soul.
The first four rivers are woe (x), lamentation (y), fire (t), unbreakable oath or instincts (z), while the last is forgetfulness (Q). Forgetfulness is different in that it detaches from the woes, lamination, unbreakable oat, pain/emotions (fire); (x,y,z,t).
Yet there is a distinct lack of any proof yet provided that is not simply circular in reasoning.
For you it seems to be the mind of an atheist.
I look forward to you doing so.
Individual reason can be illogical and based on unsubstantiated premises.
If you are excusing such things before even beginning then any "proof" arrived at while containing such will unfortunately not bear any semblance to reality.
Where is ther evidence of any denial.
There is simply rejection.
Denial implies the truth of that which is being denied, and that truth has yet to be proven.
Are you going to offer a proof that is not circular?
It is not a mantra as much as it is the truth: there is no evidence that the atheist is aware of that leads to the rational conclusion that God necessarily exists.
Do you have any?
It seems to me, Jan, that you simply fail to understand the atheist point of view.
You understand the key words that they use but not the reasoning for them.
You can not comprehend thus you belittle them, you accuse them of denial rather than merely rejection, you accuse them of being offensive rather than listening to the criticisms they put forth, criticisms that you simply ignore and/or dismiss as offence, and you have yet to offer any actual proof through reason that you claim exists.
Not only that but as soon as you get found out and your position and tactics exposed, you simply put those people on ignore rather than address the valid criticisms they raise.
Are you now going to offer that proof you claim exists up for analysis?
Reason is not individual, it's universal or it's crap.
DaveC426913
Valued Senior Member
:shrug: This thread is a de facto cesspool of stuff anyway. It has been off-topic since post 1.
Thing is, as a believer myself, I accept that the physical evidence is sorely lacking - I readily admit that my belief cannot be outwardly proven; that us part of what makes it so personal and, well, spiritual. I have, for lack of better phrasing, experienced moments or periods of profound peace when I would have expected something else. Was that the Holy Spirit comforting me? I like to think so, but I accept I cannot explain it one way or another; any attempt would be simple supposition.
That is, to me, the most dangerous aspect of religion though... when one tries to insist it as fact, it is quickly perverted, going from a deep personal sense and experience, to a vulgar statement used as a weapon and excuse for unwholesome and bigoted acts.
That is, to me, the most dangerous aspect of religion though... when one tries to insist it as fact, it is quickly perverted, going from a deep personal sense and experience, to a vulgar statement used as a weapon and excuse for unwholesome and bigoted acts.