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Proof the Bible is God's Word
- Thread starter Laser Eyes
- Start date
The Quran was not written by the prophet Muhammad , prophet muhammad could not read or write
Again, you are putting words in my mouth; I did not say Muhammad wrote anything, I said men wrote the Quran, and that is a fact.
it only shows your sheer ignorance of Islam and its teachings.
Your response shows your inability to synthesize.
if you call any muslim a fundamentalist, then your level of reasoning is really scary.
That’s not an argument; that’s a rant. If you don’t know anything about debating, why are you creating threads?
GENERALIZATION IS THE TOOL OF THE FOOLS.
By your reasoning, you are the biggest fool here.
you have already shown your pathetic ignorance of Islam, no need to continue
Again, that is not an argument; it’s merely a mindless insult. You should not be creating threads if you don’t know the first thing about discussion.
PEACE BE UPON YOU.
Whatever happened to “PATHETIC LIAR?”
Proud Syrian – one of the things you need to work on is your ability to discuss the topics you create. What is the point of creating thread topics that you have no intention of discussing? If I, and others you insult are ignorant of Islam, why then don’t you teach us instead? If you claim to know Islam, you should be able to come up with well-thought out, reasonable answers to anything we question.
But, you don’t respond with answers to the questions, instead you insult everyone, and that makes you look the fool. You do injustice to your religion and your god. Other Muslims on this board have tried explaining that to you. Even they can see the lack of respect you have for Islam.
Again, you are putting words in my mouth; I did not say Muhammad wrote anything, I said men wrote the Quran, and that is a fact.
it only shows your sheer ignorance of Islam and its teachings.
Your response shows your inability to synthesize.
if you call any muslim a fundamentalist, then your level of reasoning is really scary.
That’s not an argument; that’s a rant. If you don’t know anything about debating, why are you creating threads?
GENERALIZATION IS THE TOOL OF THE FOOLS.
By your reasoning, you are the biggest fool here.
you have already shown your pathetic ignorance of Islam, no need to continue
Again, that is not an argument; it’s merely a mindless insult. You should not be creating threads if you don’t know the first thing about discussion.
PEACE BE UPON YOU.
Whatever happened to “PATHETIC LIAR?”
Proud Syrian – one of the things you need to work on is your ability to discuss the topics you create. What is the point of creating thread topics that you have no intention of discussing? If I, and others you insult are ignorant of Islam, why then don’t you teach us instead? If you claim to know Islam, you should be able to come up with well-thought out, reasonable answers to anything we question.
But, you don’t respond with answers to the questions, instead you insult everyone, and that makes you look the fool. You do injustice to your religion and your god. Other Muslims on this board have tried explaining that to you. Even they can see the lack of respect you have for Islam.
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Redoubtable
Guest
We are talking about ALL the walking and flying animals here, not a butt-load of sheep.
I don't think it is possible for a man and his close family to build a structure that could even approach the size required for such astronomical occupancy.
Jenyar, I'm referring to the Old Teastament miracle during which God prolonged the day for the Hebrews to continue a battle or something or other. That is not scientificaly possible.
The important idea here is that the squid is EATEN. When something is ingested, it dies.
Jonah would have been no different.
It's scientifically impossible because it has never been observed.
Yeah, I've called it round, but that's irrelevant.
The statement The earth is round is not wrong at all.
It's the statement The earth is a circle that's wrong, and that, compadre, is what Isiah states.
Laser Eyes
Registered Senior Member
You are quite right Redoubtable. The earth is an oblate spheroid. It is flattened at the poles. But remember the Bible is a translation. The Old Testament was originally written in Hebrew. After you have learned a few foreign languages you learn that you always lose something in the translation. The Hebrew word originally used in Isaiah 40:22 is chugh which has the meaning of a shpere. I quoted from the New King James Version but other Bibles translate that word as "globe" or "round". I think God was conveying the idea that from whatever angle you observe the earth it appears circular. He wasn't trying to give a geometry lesson.
Jenyar - are you telling me you believe that all the animals in the world were placed on the ark? And what did they eat? And after they were let out of the ark what did they eat? I guess the marsupials just wandered over to Australia
too funny! The ark couldn’t even fit all the insect species never mind mammals. And, as a matter of fact, in another thread you yourself have stated that the flood occurred in a small region in the ME. Which is no wonder considering flooding occurs every year in some part of the world. Hence most cultures have flood myths similar to the Noah/Gilgamesh myth.
Originally posted by Michael
Jenyar - are you telling me you believe that all the animals in the world were placed on the ark? And what did they eat? And after they were let out of the ark what did they eat? I guess the marsupials just wandered over to Australia
And, as a matter of fact, in another thread you yourself have stated that the flood occurred in a small region in the ME. Which is no wonder considering flooding occurs every year in some part of the world. Hence most cultures have flood myths similar to the Noah/Gilgamesh myth.
Michael, if the animals' DNA was carried, say, in test tubes, then there probably would have been enough room. The kangaroos must have hopped all the way to Australia, and they could have carried the dingos in their pouch. Just a thought.
Two of every kind is hardly "all". And check the article I quoted from. "All different types of domestic cattle (which are clean animals) are descended from the Aurochs, so there were probably at most seven (or fourteen) domestic cattle aboard."
Don't let your preconceptions shape your understanding.
That depends on what you think is possible, and that's not a guideline science would follow. And science is not a guideline that miracles follow. And this miracle is not only recorded in the Bible.
"In the ancient Chinese writings there is a legend of a long day. The Incas of Peru and the Aztecs of Mexico have a like record, and there is a Babylonian and a Persian legend of a day that was miraculously extended. Another section of China contributes an account of the day that was miraculously prolonged, in the reign of Emperor Yeo. Herodotus recounts that the priests of Egypt showed him their temple records, and that there he read a strange account of a day that was twice the natural length."
- Evidences for Joshua's long day.
Or for a really indepth astronomical and textual analysis of the account, refer to Joshua's long day - Joshua 10.
Whether it happened, and whether it happened by itself, is something you must decide for yourself. Science can't prove what it can't predict, it can only describe what already happens.
Jonah 1:17
But the LORD provided a great fish to swallow Jonah, and Jonah was inside the fish three days and three nights.
Besides, nobody was in there with him to see what happened. He might have died after he prayed, and God might have resurrected him as He resurrected Jesus after three days. If a squid can come out intact, so can Jonah.
What you mean is that it's scientifically impossible until it has been observed objectively. Science does not decide what is possible. Nature does, and then people can describe what nature does using science. Based on what has already been described, you make an informed conjecure about what is scientifically impossible. But with no data you can make no predictions, and nothing is "impossible". Was it impossible for the earth to be the centre of the solar system, or was it only impossible when it the sun was discovered to be its centre? Everything worked fine with each of those beliefs.
Both are equally wrong scientifically speaking. But when you call it round and he calls it as a circle, it amounts to the same thing: an expression that is sufficient for what you intend to say. If you're not writing a scientific treatise, you don't need a scientific fact to express the truth you're trying to convey.
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Proud_Syrian
Guest
He did not dicatete it, it was revealed to him from God by the Angel Gabriel.
read more about Islam before you open your mouth:
www.jesus-or-allah.com
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Proud_Syrian
Guest
Since when FOOLS can give advices ???
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Proud_Syrian
Guest
It is in the Sunnah.
If such a flood and ark really happened, it's hardly a myth - regardless of the language used to describe it. There are many possibilities, and I don't know which ones are fact any better than anyone else. I'm just trying to show where arguments against some possibilities might be flawed. For instance, insect species don't "breathe through nostrils" and would have survived the flood (textually speaking). My own belief is that the author clearly intends to convey that everything that lived outside the ark died in the flood. My own belief, also, is that this is not the point. It's bickering over details like these that robs the story of its truth instead of enhancing its truth.Originally posted by Michael
Jenyar - are you telling me you believe that all the animals in the world were placed on the ark? And what did they eat? And after they were let out of the ark what did they eat? I guess the marsupials just wandered over to Australia
And, as a matter of fact, in another thread you yourself have stated that the flood occurred in a small region in the ME. Which is no wonder considering flooding occurs every year in some part of the world. Hence most cultures have flood myths similar to the Noah/Gilgamesh myth.
My faith does not depend on it being a global or a local flood, because I don't doubt that the truth and moral has been preserved either way.
So it wasn't written by Muhammed, and it wasn't dictated by Muhammed. How did it get on paper? If it was by Gabriel's own hand, why are there at least three versions?
With all respect, Proud_Syrian... the Quran went through the same "pens of the scribes" as the Bible did. But a Muslim question ing the Bible is not the same as a Christian questioning the Quran.
"the closest analogue in Christian belief to the role of the Kur'an in Muslim belief is not the Bible, but Christ." (i.e. If Christ is the Word of God made flesh, the Koran is the Word of God made text.)
Encyclopaedia of Islam (1981)
If you want to be objective in your criticism, I suggest the following article in the Atlantic Online: Studying the Koran historically
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Proud_Syrian
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Originally posted by Jenyar
So it wasn't written by Muhammed, and it wasn't dictated by Muhammed. How did it get on paper? If it was by Gabriel's own hand, why are there at least three versions?
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And who told you there are 3 versions !! if you go to china and buy the Quran it will be the same copy as you buy in the USA ( the arabic original that is ) but of course there are many versions for the TRANSLATION.
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With all respect, Proud_Syrian... the Quran went through the same "pens of the scribes" as the Bible did. But a Muslim question ing the Bible is not the same as a Christian questioning the Quran.
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P S:
With all due respect, this is not true, the Quran was complete BEFORE the prophet Muhammad Death, he personally supervised the writing of the Quran, something never happened to the bible, most theologians recognize that the first bible was written at least 100 year after Jesus was taken to Heaven by Allah, this of course depeneds on what kind of christian you are talking with, some christians tell you it was even 300 years after jesus was taken to heaven !!
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"the closest analogue in Christian belief to the role of the Kur'an in Muslim belief is not the Bible, but Christ." (i.e. If Christ is the Word of God made flesh, the Koran is the Word of God made text.)
Encyclopaedia of Islam (1981)
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P S:
I agree, we muslims acknowledge that Jesus is indeed the WORD OF ALLAH ALMIGHTY on earth, we consider his mother, MARIAM, to be the PURIST woman ever walked on the face of this earth, we recognize his miraclous birth, we BELIEVE in his miracles such as walking on the water and raising the dead.....we believe in him as a PROPHET sent from God, and we also believe that Jesus will come back to save the world including MUSLIMS.
You see, SHOW ME one other religion that dignify and honour Jesus and his mother as Islam does ???
the Jews insult Jesus in their holy book, they call his mother a whore !!! here is some examples from the TALMUD:
Sanhedrin 106a. Says Jesus' mother was a whore: "She who was the descendant of princes and governors played the harlot with carpenters."
Gloats over Christ Dying Young:
A passage from Sanhedrin 106 gloats over the early age at which Jesus died: "Hast thou heard how old Balaam (Jesus) was? - He replied: It is not actually stated but since it is written, Bloody and deceitful men shall not live out half their days it follows that he was thirty-three or thirty-four years old."
Says Jesus was a Sorcerer:
Sanhedrin 43a. Says Jesus was executed because he practiced sorcery.
Horrible Blasphemy of Jesus Christ:
Gittin 57a. Says Jesus is being boiled in "hot excrement."
Sanhedrin 43a. Jesus deserved execution: "On the eve of the Passover, Yeshu was hanged...Do you suppose that he was one for whom a defense could be made? Was he not a Mesith (enticer)?"
http://www.sharif.org.uk/jesus8.htm
Regarding your article from the Atlantic website, I have read it, it is clearly a christian missionaries nonesense, let me quote you something from what those ALLEGED scientists have said:
''They like to quote the textual work that shows that the Bible has a history and did not fall straight out of the sky, but until now the Koran has been out of this discussion. The only way to break through this wall is to prove that the Koran has a history too. The Sana'a fragments will help us to do this."
they are desperate to prove that the Quran is not the perfect word of God, Allah said in the Quran that he shall preserve it until the day of judgment.
And the ABSURD thing is that destroyed thousand years old PAPERS not even the whole book are used to examine the Noble Quran, the picture in your site itself tells it all:
but hey, nice try.
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No I only refer to the Arabic versions. The "one original version" you mention is probably the Uthman's standardized version. But why would there be a standardized version if their were no variations? The truth is, the first authorized Quran was compiled by Zayed Ibn Thabit after the death of the Prophet.
My point is that even if the original was pure, the seven readers or any of the authorized compilers afterwards were only human and could make mistakes. If those mistakes (see for instance scribal errors in the Quran) could happen to the Quran without losing its integrity, the same must be true for the Bible.
My point is that even if the original was pure, the seven readers or any of the authorized compilers afterwards were only human and could make mistakes. If those mistakes (see for instance scribal errors in the Quran) could happen to the Quran without losing its integrity, the same must be true for the Bible.
The Quran states:
7:158. Say: "O men! I am sent unto you all, as the Messenger of Allah, to Whom belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth: there is no god but He: it is He that giveth both life and death. So believe in Allah and His Messenger, .the Unlettered Prophet , who believeth in Allah and His Words: follow him that (so) ye may be guided."
And here is the verse from the bible:
'And the Book is delivered to him that is not learned' (Isaiah 29:12).
Amy more questions about Prophet Muhammed being illiterateas
Jenyar,
Bring on the nature of variations. For example, if one version was missing an apostrophe as a mistake, then it's not a big deal. No war will errupt based on a missing apostrophe. No real variations existed in the Quran or you would have seen many early Islamic wars over the variations, which didn't happen. The Shia, Sunni, Wahabi, didn't exist during Othman's time. Islam was most united in those times.
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Proud_Syrian
Guest
You are wrong, the first copy of the Quran was completed while the prophet was still ALIVE.
Later on, and after the spread of Islam toward many NON-ARABIC SPEAKING nations, the people there started copying the quran using their own accent in pronouncing the arabic words, so UTHMAN IBN AFAN decided to create standard copy and send it to all these nations to follow.
regarding your allged scribal errors in the Quran, here is the refutation for that:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/