Proof the Bible is God's Word

Laser Eyes

Registered Senior Member
1. The history of how we got the Bible
The survival of the Bible is a remarkable story. During the time that the Old Testament was written other nations produced religious literature but while they were forgotten the Bible has survived. The Jews who produced the Old Testament were an oppressed people. They had to fight against powerful enemies such as the Philistines, the Ammonites and the Moabites. When the empire was divided the Assyrians wiped out the northern kingdom and the Babylonians crushed the southern kingdom. At times various enemies like Haman tried to annihilate the Jews. The Syrians tried to force the Jews to follow Greek customs and Greek Gods. Despite all these difficulties the Jews and the Hebrew scriptures survived while the nations around them disappeared.

The Christians who produced the New Testament were also oppressed. The Jewish authorities tried to stop them spreading their ideas. The Roman empire tortured and killed Christians and the emporer Diocletian ordered the burning of all Bibles. Once again the threats to the survival of the Bible failed.

Why did the Bible survive when other books that did not face these challenges were forgotten? If the Bible really is the word of God then no humans could destroy it.

Another aspect of this story of survival is the repeated recopying of the Bible on perishable material. The discovery of Bible manuscripts, especially the Dead Sea Scrolls, prove that the Bible has come down to us with amazing accuracy, despite the risk of human error and attempts to deliberately alter the text.

But the story doesn't end there. The empire of Christendom tried to destroy the Bible in a different way. In the Middle Ages the Pope ordered that the Bible be kept in Latin and not translated into the common language. It became a crime to own a Bible and people suffered shocking punishments for trying to translate the Bible and make it available to others. People have been willing to risk death just to own a Bible. It has inspired a devotion and willingness to die unparalleled in human history. No other book in history has survived despite such fierce opposition by enemies. The distribution of the Bible today is estimated at four billion copies in two thousand languages. The story of the Bible as a book is unique.

2. A higher wisdom
(a) The Bible contains wisdom that is beyond merely human capabilities. Has there ever been a more wise saying than Jesus' advice: "Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets." - Matthew 7:12 In a world that has always promoted the pursuit of wealth the Bible recognises: "The love of money is a root of all kinds of evil" - 1 Timothy 6:10 However the Bible also recognises the practical need for money when it says: "For wisdom is a defence as money is a defence" - Ecclesiastes 7:12 Substance abuse is a serious problem in many countries including affluent western societies. Two thousand years ago The Bible writer wisely counseled us to stay in control of ourselves and not let addictions rule our lives. When speaking about the food we take into our bodies Paul said: "I will not be brought under the power of any." - 1 Corinthians 6:12 What the Bible says about marriage is unfashionable by today's standards. But if husbands obeyed the Bible's counsel to "love their own wives as their own bodies" (Ephesians 5:28) and if wives respected their husbands (Ephesians 5:33) maybe we wouldn't see the spiralling divorce rate and the family breakdown this causes. The Bible commands sexual abstinence prior to marriage. - Matthew 19:4-6 The Bible's approval of sexual relations only in marriage, is considered old-fashioned today. But a long hard look at the results of "sexual freedom": unwanted pregnancies, teenage motherhood, sexually transmitted diseases; shows that there is much to be said for the strict standard set down in the Bible. Far from bringing a feeling of freedom the loose morals prevalent today have brought pain and suffering. The Bible's practical suggestions, if followed, raise the physical and mental health of those who follow them. It might be said that many books written by men do the same. But remember the writing of the Bible extended over 1600 years started in 1513 B.C. and ended in 98 A.D. The wisdom contained in the Bible was unknown at the time of its writing. The Bible provides guidance and sets standards of conduct in business dealings, working life, family relationships, raising children and clean moral conduct that are beneficial if followed.

The Bible is one of the most influential books in history. Abraham Lincoln: "I believe the Bible is the best gift God has ever given to man." Robert E. Lee: "In all my perplexities and distresses, the Bible has never failed to give me light and strength." Mahatma Ghandi: "When your country and mine shall get together on the teachings laid down by Christ in this Sermon on the Mount, we shall have solved the problems, not only of our countries, but those of the whole world." John Quincy Adams: "I speak as a man of the world to men of the world, and I say to you, search the Scriptures. The Bible is the book of all others, to be read at all ages, and in all conditions of human life."

3. A claim consistently made by the writers that they were writing God's thoughts and not their own
I'm reluctant to include this one. Statements by a writer that his words are inspired by God are self-serving and are certainly not proof that they are. But what is remarkable here is that the claim is repeated by many different writers time and time again. In 2 Samuel 23:2 the writer states: "The spirit of the Lord spoke by me, and his word was on my tongue." Over a thousand years later Peter makes the same claim: "For prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the holy spirit." - 2 Peter 1:21 John writing in exile on the island of Patmos in the year 96 also credits the book of Revelation to God: Revelation 1:1-2 That the same claim is made by so many different men at widely differing times and places is something to consider. Contrast this with what we know of human nature. Do the academics, psychologists, scientists, professors and other intellectuals of today readily give the credit for their writings to someone else? Isn't it human nature and intellectual pride to take the credit for what one produces? Why would 40 different writers, who mostly never met or knew each other, over a period of 1600 years, all refuse to take any credit for what they had written? Can you think of any other example that even comes close to this?

4.Scientifically accurate
(a) Long before modern scientists concluded that the universe had a beginning Moses wrote in Genesis that "God created the heavens and the earth." - Genesis 1:1 How did he know that there was a certain moment in time when the universe began?

(b) At a time when the world had little knowledge or understanding about the earth two Bible writers revealed a knowledge that could only have come from one source. Writing in the wilderness Moses said that God "hangs the earth on nothing." - Job 26:7 This description accords with the appearance of the earth suspended in space due to the forces of gravity and inertia. At the time, and for centuries later, there were all sorts of myths and legends, one common view was that the earth rested on 4 elephants standing on a large sea turtle. The Egyptians thought the universe was a north-south rectangular box with the earth on the bottom and Egypt in the centre, and at four cardinal points very high mountains held up the sky. How did Moses know 3000 years before Copernicus, and without those snazzy space shuttle pics, that the earth hangs self-poised in empty space? If you think about it, what the Bible writer said is the last thing a human mind would have come up with. Gravity plays such a big part in our lives, everything rests on something, its what we understand, observe and live by, we even have a saying for it: "What goes up, must come down". Why would a man think the earth just floated in space, resting on nothing, contrary to everything else in his life? Writing in the eighth century B.C., 2200 years before Magellan sailed around the world, Isaiah told us that God "sits above the circle of the earth." - Isaiah 40:22 How did he know the earth was round when everybody else on earth thought it was flat?

(c) One of the objectives of the law that God gave to Israel was to protect the health and welfare of the people. Egyptian medicine prescribed the application of human and animal excrement as a remedy for various ailments. Their use could result in serious infections. Considering that "Moses was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians" (Acts 7:22) the regulations found in the Mosaic law that relate to physical cleanliness show remarkable knowledge of sound sanitary procedures. One regulation dealt with the segregation and burial of excrement. The hazard of leaving excrement exposed was not generally known until last century. - Deuteronomy 23:12-13 Another required anyone who came in contact with a dead person to undergo a cleansing procedure - Numbers 19:11-22 The importance of quarantining persons with transmissible diseases was recognised - Leviticus 13:46

(d) God instructed Abraham that "every male of yours eight days old must be circumcised." - Genesis 17:12 The requirement that circumcision take place on the eighth day was restated in the Mosaic law. - Leviticus 12:3 Why the eighth day? Only recently physicians have discovered that essential blood-clotting elements are higher on the eighth day than at any other time of a child's life. Did the Bible writer just happen to pick the perfect day by chance?

(e) Long before modern medicine worked it out the Bible recognised the that there is a connection between a person's physical health and his mental attitude. "A merry heart does good, like medicine, but a broken spirit dries the bones." - Proverbs 17:22 "A sound heart is life to the body, but envy is rottenness to the bones." - Proverbs 14:30

(f) When Moses wrote Genesis there were many strange theories about the causes of day and night. Men thought daylight was caused by a bright vapour and darkness by a black vapour that ascended from the ground. Yet the Bible accurately states the cause of day and night to be lights in the heavens that give light on the earth and "divide the light from the darkness". - Genesis 1:14-18

(g) In the Egyptian society in which Moses grew up and was educated it was taught that man came from Ra's tears. But in Genesis 2:7 Moses wrote that God formed man from "the dust of the ground." Every chemical found in the human body is found in the ground. Of all the things that Moses could have chosen to say that man was created from he just happened to pick something that was chemically consistent with the human body. Was it just a good guess?

(h) In Ecclesiastes 1:7 the earth's amazing water cycle, unknown in ancient times, is vividly described: "All the rivers run into the sea, yet the sea is not full. To the place from which the rivers come, there they return again." Where did Solomon learn this in 1000 B.C.?

(i) An examination of the scientific accuracy of the Bible would not be complete without looking at the account of man's creation. Is the creation of man by God unscientific? Does modern science support evolution or creation? One way to test evolutionary theory is by examining the fossil record to see if a gradual change from one kind to another really happened. Evolutionary theory suggests a fossil record that contains very simple life forms gradually changing into complex ones with transitional links between them and new body features starting to appear. Creation suggests a fossil record that contains complex life forms suddenly appearing, variety only within species, no transitional links between species and no partial body features. Many scientists openly admit that when you look for links between biological families they just aren't there. Even Darwin in his Origin of the Species admitted the fossil record did not support his theory when he said, "I look at the geological record as a history of the world imperfectly kept, ... imperfect to an extreme degree." After more than a century of research, and an extensive record now discovered, the fossil record reveals the same thing it did in Darwin's day: Complex life forms appearing suddenly without transitional links between different species. Far from supporting the theory of evolution, the fossil record supports the arguments for creation. In his book Cosmos, astronomer Carl Sagan said, "The fossil evidence could be consistent with the idea of a Great Designer."

(j) Let's look at another aspect of whether science supports the Bible version about how life began. Evolutionary theory suggests that life began spontaneously by a chance collision of chemicals and energy. But more than a hundred years ago Louis Pasteur clearly demonstrated that life comes only from life. The gulf between living and non-living things grows wider as scientific knowledge increases. The spontaneous generation of life from non-living matter belongs in the realm of science fiction, not science fact. Of the Bible's explanation, that life was created by a living God, it can at least be said that it is not inconsistent with established scientific knowledge.

5. A remarkable consistency
Suppose you asked 40 writers to write 66 books over a period of 1,600 years. The writers were all from varied backgrounds, some were educated, others were farmers and shepherds and most of them lived at different times in history and in different places. What are the chances that their writings would harmonize? The Bible shows remarkable internal harmony even in the smallest details. What may seem to be a contradiction is usually explained by the fact that the Bible writers had different backgrounds and different writing styles and these differences are reflected in the writing. Also if two writers relate the same event one might include details that the other leaves out. Additionally, two writers might use different methods, one might record something chronologically while another might use a different method.

6. Fulfilment of prophecy
The Bible says that God is the one "Declaring the end from the beginning" - Isaiah 46:10 The Bible contains hundreds of fulfilled prophecies and even some that we are seeing come true today. Obviously I don't have room to tell them all here. I will limit myself to a few, the fulfilment of which are historical facts beyond dispute.

(a) History records the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians in 607 B.C. and the Jews being taken into captivity. Isaiah prophecied it 150 years before it actually happened. - Isaiah 39:5-6

(b) On a fateful night in 539 B.C. the Persian general Cyrus overthrew the city of Babylon. His soldiers were able to approach along the banks of the Euphrates by diverting the course of the river. They entered through gates that for some reason had been left open. They captured the palace and killed Belshazzar. The city had fallen in one night. Two hundred years before it happened Isaiah foretold the destruction of Babylon, that its rivers would dry up, that Cyrus would conquer the city and that its gates would not be shut. - Isaiah 44:27, 45:1 Jeremiah made the same prophecy 50 years before it happened. - Jeremiah 50:38, 51:11, 30

(c) After the predicted 70 years in exile, in 537 B.C. Cyrus returned the Jews to their homeland. Jeremiah foretold the Jewish exile would last exactly 70 years. - Jeremiah 25:11; 29:10

(d) In the eighth century B.C. Isaiah foretold that Babylon would eventually be completely destroyed and never again be inhabited. - Isaiah 13:19-22 In the sixth century B.C. Jeremiah made the same prophecy. - Jeremiah 51:37, 41-43 The prophecy was not fulfilled until the fourth century A.D. and to this day Babylon is a bunch of desolate ruins.

(e) The book of Daniel, written in the sixth century B.C. during the Jewish exile in Babylon makes startling predictions about the dominance of various world powers. Daniel accurately predicted that the Medo-Persian army would conquer the Babylonian empire even though it was a dominant power at the time. - Daniel 8:3, 20; an attempted invasion of Greece by the fourth king of Persia - Daniel 11:2; the defeat of Medo-Persia by Greece under Alexander the Great in 332 B.C. - Daniel 8:5-7, 21; and its eventual division into 4 smaller powers - Daniel 8:8, 22

(f) In the first century it was foretold that many claiming to be Christian would bring reproach on the Bible and the name of Christianity. - 2 Peter 2:1-2; Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43. The empire of Christendom promoted military campaigns against the Muslims, the so-called holy crusades. The appalling conduct of the church to prevent dissemination of the Bible I recount elsewhere. During the last few centuries the military expansion of the supposedly Christian nations has been marked by cruelty and greedy self-interest. The last two world wars have been fought between "Christian" nations. We should remember that their conduct does not represent true Christian teachings. Is that the kind of prophecy you would expect of a purely human creation?

(g) There is perhaps space for one more. This amazing prophecy is coming true right before our eyes. Jesus' disciples asked him what will be a sign of the last days. He said, "Many will come in my name, saying, "I am the Christ," and will deceive many. And you will hear of wars and rumours of wars ... For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom and there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places ... because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold." - Matthew 24:5-12 Some may argue that these things have happened in the past and they would be right, but they have never before happened together and on a worldwide basis and in addition they are becoming more and more pronounced.

7. Logical answers to questions that only God can answer
There's an old saying: "Nobody's perfect." And yet who can explain why? Why is every person on earth flawed in some way? We don't think of animals as being imperfect. We don't think of trees, or plants, or flowers, or anything in nature as being imperfect. We don't even think of rainy days as being wrong. And yet somehow we know that there is something wrong with us. The Bible provides an explanation of how human life started, how imperfection was introduced by the first man, and how this has brought about war, crime, sickness, famine and ultimately death. Man is not evolving, he is degrading. The Bible provides a complete and logical explanation about the world today and how it got this way, how we can achieve happiness, what will happen in the future to the earth and mankind. The answers the Bible provides to life's questions are like the pieces of a jigsaw puzzle which, when put together, produce a picture that is logical and makes sense.

8. Surprising candour
People don't like to admit their own mistakes. And they certainly don't like to immortalise their errors in writing for posterity. The Bible writers display a surprising candour and honesty about their weaknesses. In Numbers 20:1-13 Moses reveals a serious mistake which led to him not leading his people into the promised land. Jonah told how he disobeyed a direct command from God out of indifference. - Jonah 1:1-3 Many passages in the gospels record the failings of Jesus' disciples. The disciples failure to understand Jesus. - Matthew 16:5-12 Peter's failure to walk on water because of lack of faith - Matthew 14:28-31; his denial of Jesus 3 times - Matthew 26:69-75 The disciples argued among themselves who was the greatest among them - Mark 9:33-34; Luke 22:24 The apostle Paul told how he used to beat Christians - Acts 22:19; and he described himself as the worst sinner in the entire world. - 1 Timothy 1:15 If the writers were going to make false claims wouldn't they most likely falsify the things which show them in a bad light?
 
Useless quote of entire previous post removed by moderator.

Please don't do this again.

May we please have the citation for this article?
 
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Laser eyes,

You've only chosen things from the Bible which contain some degree of accuracy and support your position, but you left out everything else(of which there is a lot). You sound more like a salesman than a scientist.
 
Originally posted by Laser Eyes
The Bible contains wisdom that is beyond merely human capabilities. Has there ever been a more wise saying than Jesus' advice: "Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets." - Matthew 7:12
Since the rest of your senseless diatribe is no better than this piece of intellectual bullpuckie, I'll let it serve as a proxy.

The SHARED BELIEF IN THE "GOLDEN RULE" is well documented. So, where does that leave gMat 7:12 ...
  • current scholarship suggests that gMat was composed decades after the fact by an author who had no first hand experience of 'Jesus'
  • what we are left with is hearsay at best, interpolation at worst
  • of a dictum so common as to be pervasive.
And this is the "wisdom that is beyond merely human capabilities"! :D No. Just beyond your capabilities.
 
current scholarship suggests that gMat was composed decades after the fact by an author who had no first hand experience of 'Jesus'
Why? Papias writes that Mathew wrote from the oracles of the Lord into hebrew translating them as best as he could. Were only talking about few old testament quotations that let the reader know what Jesus was fullfilling.

But the story doesn't end there. The empire of Christendom tried to destroy the Bible in a different way. In the Middle Ages the Pope ordered that the Bible be kept in Latin and not translated into the common language.
The Pope did not do any of the above. The Pope did ban some heretical translations of the bible. For example, Martin Luther's translation of the bible into German made a mistake in the new testament. http://www.cathinsight.com/apologetics/adventism/bible.htm

It became a crime to own a Bible and people suffered shocking punishments for trying to translate the Bible and make it available to others.
It was never a crime to hold a bible.
 
I like this one:
"The heart of the person before you is a mirror. See there your own form"
 
Originally posted by Laser Eyes



4.Scientifically accurate
(a) Long before modern scientists concluded that the universe had a beginning Moses wrote in Genesis that "God created the heavens and the earth." - Genesis 1:1 How did he know that there was a certain moment in time when the universe began?

gosh..i read this and I thought you were being sarcastic. In what way is a statement 'god created the heavens and the earth' relating to the statement ' there was a certain moment when the universe began', since there could have been a universe without heavens and earth. An empty one.

and in what way is the statement accurate? Does it mention an exact and accurate timepoint when the universe began?
 
Can God be the author of confusion and contradiction?

I John 5:7 which hinted at the Trinity is taken out of every modern version of the Bible as it is not to be found in the most ancient manuscripts (that they have access to today).

There is therefore no longer any verse in the Bible which preaches three gods as one. The Koran preaches that God is one indivisible, and not a trinity ( Koran 4:171)

II Samuel 24 :1 says that God incited David to number Israel .
I Chronicles 21:1 says that Satan incited David to number Israel. God and Satan are not synonymous.

II Chronicles 36:9 says that Jehoiachin was 8 years old when he became king.
II Kings 24:8 says Jehoiachin was 18 years old when he became king.

A difference of 10 years

II Samuel 10:18 talks about David slew the men of 700 chariots of the Syrians and 40,000 horsemen and Shobach the commander.
I Chronicles 1:18 says that David slew the men of 7000 chariots and 40,000 footmen

Contradiction: one says 700 the other 7000. One says 40,000 horsemen(cavalry), the other 40,000 footmen (infantry).

I Chronicles 9:25 says that Solomon had 4000 stalls for horses and chariots.
I Kings 4:26 says that he had 40,000 stalls for horses

A difference of 36,000.

Ezra 2:5 talks about an exile Arah having 775 sons.
Nehemiah 7:10 talks about the same exile Arah having 652 sons.

John the Baptist contradicts Jesus.

According to Jesus, John the Baptist was Elijah in his 2nd coming Matthew 17:11.

John the Baptist denied being Elijah when the priests and Levites questioned him
(John 1:19-21).

Was Jesus put on a cross (Stauron in Greek) Mark 15:11 or on a tree (Ksulon in Greek) I Peter 2:24

John 3:13 Jesus says that none has ascended into heaven except the son of man who descended from heaven.

This contradicts II Kings 2:11 which says that Elijah ascended into heaven.

The Genealogy of Jesus:

From David to Jesus 41 names (generations) are given by Matthew [although he claims
there are 42] as against the 26 names [generations] given by Luke [Luke 3]. A difference
of 15 whole generations in the genealogy of the same man.

Matthew mentions that Jesus was the seed of David through Solomon while Luke says that Jesus was the seed of David through Nathan [Solomon's brother]. This is a contradiction as the seed of David could never reach Jesus through Solomon and his brother Nathan at the same time. According to Matthew Jesus' grandfather is Jacob [the father of Joseph] while according to Luke it is Heli.

Luke doesn't claim inspiration of his Gospel by God. He wrote it because he knew of the events and it "seemed good to him" ( Luke 1:1-5). Also see I Corinthians 7:25 where Paul, in this specific case says that he's informing without God's commandment. II Timothy 3:16 is presented to "prove" that all of the Bible is God's inspiration, the above 2 references apart from the many others disprove that.

The point is that the Bible itself doesn't claim to be completely from God (as a whole by name). That is what the Muslim point of view is also. Since God is all- Knowing and isn't the author of confusion, the above references cannot be from God.

"How can you say that we are wise and that the law of the Lord is with us but behold, the false pen of the scribe has made it into a lie." Bible. Jeremiah 8:8

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Can you possibly find something a little more unbiased than "Catholic Insight" to defend the Pope?
Well the article is well researched, and as far as I'm concern accurate. I have read most of the points made in the article in other sources. Although I'm sure that some priest would be hestant to give out bibles to the laity due to improper intepretations("Know this, all intepretations are public matter" Peter) , I'm unaware of this happening. The biggest obstacles to the bible were those trying to distort the message maliciously in order to take advange of a populous, the majority of whom could not read, and outside forces such as the romans and islam. I'm unaware of any christian martyr dying for the bible though it is possible.
 
Originally posted by okinrus
Why? Papias writes that Mathew wrote from the oracles of the Lord into hebrew translating them as best as he could. Were only talking about few old testament quotations that let the reader know what Jesus was fullfilling.
I honestly haven't a clue as to what was intended by your 2nd sentence. As for your 1st sentence, (a) Matthew's attempt to link Jesus with OT prophesy is a joke (e.g., Isaiah 7:14), and (b) as for Papias:
It is the near-universal position of scholarship that the Gospel of Matthew is dependent upon the Gospel of Mark. This position is accepted whether one subscribes to the dominant Two-Source Hypothesis or instead prefers the Farrer-Goulder hypothesis.

It is also the consensus position that the evangelist was not the apostle Matthew. Such an idea is based on the second century statements of Papias and Irenaeus. As quoted by Eusebius in Hist. Eccl. 3.39, Papias states: "Matthew put together the oracles [of the Lord] in the Hebrew language, and each one interpreted them as best he could." In Adv. Haer. 3.1.1, Irenaeus says: "Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect while Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome and laying the foundations of the church." We know that Irenaeus had read Papias, and it is most likely that Irenaeus was guided by the statement he found there. That statement in Papias itself is considered to be unfounded because the Gospel of Matthew was written in Greek and relied largely upon Mark, not the author's first-hand experience.

- see EarlyChristianWritings,com
 
Originally posted by Proud_Syrian
Can God be the author of confusion and contradiction?
No, but you can be.

I John 5:7 which hinted at the Trinity is taken out of every modern version of the Bible as it is not to be found in the most ancient manuscripts (that they have access to today).

There is therefore no longer any verse in the Bible which preaches three gods as one. The Koran preaches that God is one indivisible, and not a trinity (Koran 4:171)
Do you think the doctrine of Trinity was based on one verse alone? It is much to controversial to base it on something so circumstantial, and would never have been installed, never mind survived.

I could quote some verses that still "hint at the Trinity", significantly: John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God", but eventually it comes down to this: if you don't read the Bible, you won't understand God's tri-unity. If you do read the Bible, you will have to come to some such conclusion.

II Samuel 24 :1 says that God incited David to number Israel.
I Chronicles 21:1 says that Satan incited David to number Israel. God and Satan are not synonymous.
Depends on the perspective; both are true. By some accounts David sinned because God's anger against Israel incited it (if God allows something He is also said to have incited it), by another account Satan incited David against Israel. David certainly was not able to tell the difference, but Joab was. The fact that David realized his sin means that he was able to tell it was wrong.

God allowed Satan to incite David, but David did not have to sin. There are other places in the Bible where someone is "given over to sin" by God, so that they might realize their error and repent.

II Chronicles 36:9 says that Jehoiachin was 8 years old when he became king.
II Kings 24:8 says Jehoiachin was 18 years old when he became king.

A difference of 10 years

II Samuel 10:18 talks about David slew the men of 700 chariots of the Syrians and 40,000 horsemen and Shobach the commander.
I Chronicles 1:18 says that David slew the men of 7000 chariots and 40,000 footmen

Contradiction: one says 700 the other 7000. One says 40,000 horsemen(cavalry), the other 40,000 footmen (infantry).

I Chronicles 9:25 says that Solomon had 4000 stalls for horses and chariots.
I Kings 4:26 says that he had 40,000 stalls for horses

A difference of 36,000.
Possible clerical or transmission errors. You didn't consider that possibility? None of them changes or influences any Jewish dogma.

Ezra 2:5 talks about an exile Arah having 775 sons.
Nehemiah 7:10 talks about the same exile Arah having 652 sons.
I wonder who counted them. But if it really disturbs your faith in God, I could look it up for you and see what has been concluded.

John the Baptist contradicts Jesus.

According to Jesus, John the Baptist was Elijah in his 2nd coming Matthew 17:11.

John the Baptist denied being Elijah when the priests and Levites questioned him
(John 1:19-21).
John was not the literal Elijah, but he was the Elijah that the prophecy spoke of (as confirmed by the angel Gabriel at his birth).

Was Jesus put on a cross (Stauron in Greek) Mark 15:11 or on a tree (Ksulon in Greek) I Peter 2:24
The curse of the Old Testament is against someone who is "hanged on a tree". The Jews didn't have the habit of crucifixion, but a cross made of wood (yes, cut from the trees near Jerusalem)would be sufficient. Is it the form of the wood that causes the curse?

John 3:13 Jesus says that none has ascended into heaven except the son of man who descended from heaven.

This contradicts II Kings 2:11 which says that Elijah ascended into heaven.
The Jews described three (sometimes seven) heavens, each 500 years' travel apart. Only one of them is the habitation of God. Since the people in question disappeared into the sky (supposedly to one of the heavens), they obviously weren't there to verify their destination. As John 3:13 indicates, "only He who descended from heaven" really knows.

The Genealogy of Jesus:

From David to Jesus 41 names (generations) are given by Matthew [although he claims there are 42] as against the 26 names [generations] given by Luke [Luke 3]. A difference
of 15 whole generations in the genealogy of the same man.

Matthew mentions that Jesus was the seed of David through Solomon while Luke says that Jesus was the seed of David through Nathan [Solomon's brother]. This is a contradiction as the seed of David could never reach Jesus through Solomon and his brother Nathan at the same time. According to Matthew Jesus' grandfather is Jacob [the father of Joseph] while according to Luke it is Heli.
The chronological records were always held in the Temple in Jerusalem, and every Jew had access to them. Unfortunately the temple was destroyed by the Romans. The kingship of David would have descended from any and all of his sons. Jewish genealogies frequently skip generations if the names are unimportant, for the sake of significance and memory.

Luke doesn't claim inspiration of his Gospel by God. He wrote it because he knew of the events and it "seemed good to him" (Luke 1:1-5). Also see I Corinthians 7:25 where Paul, in this specific case says that he's informing without God's commandment. II Timothy 3:16 is presented to "prove" that all of the Bible is God's inspiration, the above 2 references apart from the many others disprove that.

The point is that the Bible itself doesn't claim to be completely from God (as a whole by name). That is what the Muslim point of view is also. Since God is all- Knowing and isn't the author of confusion, the above references cannot be from God.
"The Bible" refers to the Old Testament, the "Scriptures that cannot be changed". The New Testament wasn't scripture from the beginning, but the fulfillment of Scripture. They are true in their testimony of God. 2 Tim. 3:16 says all scripture is God-breathed (inspired) and good for teaching. The Quran itself says that God gave us "the Book to show us the Way".


"How can you say that we are wise and that the law of the Lord is with us but behold, the false pen of the scribe has made it into a lie." Bible. Jeremiah 8:8
So everything in the Bible is untrustworthy except this verse?
What makes you so sure that the books exposed as lies weren't immediately burned as was the custom, but were taken up as Scripture along with this verse?

You are the one sowing confusion, not God. David was narrow-minded when he thought either God or Satan incited him, when he should have decided between right and wrong for himself.
 
Originally posted by Jenyar
No, but you can be.
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P S:

Thanks for the compliment,

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Depends on the perspective; both are true. By some accounts David sinned because God's anger against Israel incited it (if God allows something He is also said to have incited it), by another account Satan incited David against Israel. David certainly was not able to tell the difference, but Joab was. The fact that David realized his sin means that he was able to tell it was wrong.

God allowed Satan to incite David, but David did not have to sin. There are other places in the Bible where someone is "given over to sin" by God, so that they might realize their error and repent.
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P S:

Did you make up your mind yet, who incited David ?????

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Possible clerical or transmission errors. You didn't consider that possibility? None of them changes or influences any Jewish dogma.
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P S:

THANK YOU, if you admit possible clerical errors( as did so many christians that I debated ), why should I believe in the bible anymore ??

finding ONE single error discredit the whole book as the true word of God.

Thanks for that.

:cool:
 
why should I believe in the bible anymore ??

It’s a book written by men who claimed there is only one god – just like the Quran.

As a religious fundamentalist, how can you tell the difference?

finding ONE single error discredit the whole book as the true word of God.

Thanks for that.


By your reasoning, the Quran should also be discredited.
 
The Bible is not even close to scientifically accurate.

A man and his family could not possibly have fit every walking and flying animal into their homemade boat in order to avoid a flood covering the entirety of the Earth's surface. It is not scientifically possible.

Day light cannot last 24 hours. It is not scientifically possible.

A man cannot survive within the belly of a great fish, whale or not. It is not scientifically possible.

Oh, yes, also the dead do not get up and walk and ascend into the clouds. It is not scientifically possible.


Ah . . . sorry, Lasereyes, but the earth isn't a "circle" at all, regardless of what the bible says. It's an oblate spheroid.
. . . and Ecclesiastes definitely doesn't describe the water cycle "vividly," unless, of course, your definition of the water cycle omits the ideas of condensation and precipitation.
 
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That statement in Papias itself is considered to be unfounded because the Gospel of Matthew was written in Greek and relied largely upon Mark, not the author's first-hand experience.
I was under the impression that Matthew was written in hebrew even if overtop of the text of Mark. We know that the writer of Mathew knows some hebrew because Mathew 27:46 is written "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?", using the hebrew "Eli", while in Mark it the quotation is done all in Aramaic. You might want to look into this <a href="http://hector3000.future.easyspace.com/altman.htm">article</a>
 
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Originally posted by Redoubtable
The Bible is not even close to scientifically accurate.

A man and his family could not possibly have fit every walking and flying animal into their homemade boat in order to avoid a flood covering the entirety of the Earth's surface. It is not scientifically possible.
You probably overestimate how many animals had to be taken on board. And this "homemade boat", by the Biblical measurements, had a volume of 43500 cubic m, or "the equivalent volume of 522 standard American railroad stock cars, each of which can hold 240 sheep". (answersingenesis.com)

Day light cannot last 24 hours. It is not scientifically possible.
The separation of "day and night" was established by God on the first day. The sun was only created on the fourth day to "govern" day and night. Furthermore, since the Bible does say there was an "evening and a morning" for each "day", what inclines you think that there was daylight during these "nights"?

A man cannot survive within the belly of a great fish, whale or not. It is not scientifically possible.
A man might be swallowed whole (sperm whales can swallow 405-pound squid whole), and even survive for a while before suffocating. There are reports that is has happened before, although there is no real evidence to prove either way (the Straight Dope). But the real problem is suffocation. Just like the real problem of being hanged on a cross is suffocation. That's why we call it a miracle!

Oh, yes, also the dead do not get up and walk and ascend into the clouds. It is not scientifically possible.
Not unless they are resurrected and given new bodies. It's only scientifically impossible because it's not possible for man or nature to imitate.

Ah . . . sorry, Lasereyes, but the earth isn't a "circle" at all, regardless of what the bible says. It's an oblate spheroid.
Don't tell me you've never called the earth "round" before?
 
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