"proof that the christian god can't exist, debunked"

[wynn]

If omniscience exists then that is what I was made to be I am not me I am a mechanism following a programme.

Suppose this is so. What are the implications of this "you not being you", "being a mechanism following a programme"?
Do you have a problem with "you not being you", with "being a mechanism following a programme"?
Is there something you don't like about "you not being you", "being a mechanism following a programme"?

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

Suppose this is so. What are the implications of this "you not being you", "being a mechanism following a programme"?
Do you have a problem with "you not being you", with "being a mechanism following a programme"?
Is there something you don't like about "you not being you", "being a mechanism following a programme"?

I don't think he has a problem with being a mechanism. If he is then he is, there's not much you can do about it.

 

[Dywyddyr]

Suppose this is so. What are the implications of this "you not being you", "being a mechanism following a programme"?
Do you have a problem with "you not being you", with "being a mechanism following a programme"?
Is there something you don't like about "you not being you", "being a mechanism following a programme"?

Strange you latch onto the final line of my last post and ignore(?) the rest:
We were set up from the start to have wars, murderers, rapists, torturers etc.

As for your questions, they aren't relevant to the topic.

 

[Doreen]

I don't think he has a problem with being a mechanism. If he is then he is, there's not much you can do about it.

So people do not have problems with things they cannot change?

 

[cluelusshusbund]

Signal
God's omniscience and our predetermination would be problems only if we posit that we have only this one lifetime in which we have to make the right decision as far as God is concerned, or we will end up in hell for all eternity, with no chance of redemption.

But why should we posit such?

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
Not that it woud make any diference to the argument... ”

Why would it not make any difference to the argument?

What does make a diference to the argument is that the all-knowin God is suposed to be fare an just an yet he created humans who have no choise but to sin... an mos of 'em will wind up bein tortured for eternity.!!!

If you inturpet the bible in such a way that gives mor than 1 life... it dont mater... that was also pre-determined by God... an that estra life jus slightly delays the onset of eternal hell for those who God pre-destined to go to hell.!!!

“ but what does the Christan Bible posit other than "one life to live".??? ”

That is one popular interpretation of the Bible, yes. So?

So indeed... its irrelevent to the arument like i said... i only ask cause i was qurious about you'r (mor than 1 life) inturpitaton.!!!

 

[Jan Ardena]

PsychoticEpisode,

Was it our free will or God's will that killed Christ?:shrug:

It was the will of the person who made the decision, under the laws
which governed that place at that time.

That's an understatement.

Not necessarily to a believer.

How is this self inflicted?

It was a figure of speech.
Create an idea of God, make up a paradox, then accept the paradox as un-challengable.

Rational thinking people are expected to believe such tripe and we let it bother us because it is irrational, is that it?

Rational people are rational because they think sensibly and clearly, and do not need to advertise their position.
Another trait is that they are able to reason nicely.

What would convince you that omniscience and free will could co-exist?

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

It was the will of the person who made the decision, under the laws
which governed that place at that time.

Then it was not predetermined? Is this one instance where God didn't know the result of His action? You know that won't wash.

Man's free will decided Christ's fate? We chose to kill Christ even though that is what God engineered to happen. Sorry, can't have both.

Doreen
“
Originally Posted by PsychoticEpisode
I don't think he has a problem with being a mechanism. If he is then he is, there's not much you can do about it.
”
So people do not have problems with things they cannot change?

I just said I don't think Dyw has a problem with it. He is one person, I'm not talking about the entire world. I expect better from you Doreen.

 

[Doreen]

I just said I don't think Dyw has a problem with it. He is one person, I'm not talking about the entire world. I expect better from you Doreen.

Thank you.

You shifted to the second person, that implies something more universal.

there's not much you can do about it

Unless you meant Signal couldn't do anything about it, but that would be odd.

But OK, you just meant him, anyway. Note again. I asked a question. You tend to respond to my questions or statements in the subjunctive as if I was asserting a fact.

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

Thank you.

You shifted to the second person, that implies something more universal.


Unless you meant Signal couldn't do anything about it, but that would be odd.

But OK, you just meant him, anyway.

Yes, there were prior posts between the two on the subject. I was only interjecting. Sorry about the backhanded compliment, I understand how you misunderstood.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Then it was not predetermined? Is this one instance where God didn't know the result of His action? You know that won't wash.

Man's free will decided Christ's fate? We chose to kill Christ even though that is what God engineered to happen. Sorry, can't have both.

2 questions;

what do mean God engineered Christ' murder to happen?

And have you heard the story of scorpion who convinced a turtle (i think) to carry him across the river on his back?

jan.

 

[wynn]

Strange you latch onto the final line of my last post and ignore(?) the rest:
We were set up from the start to have wars, murderers, rapists, torturers etc.

So? What is your point?

As for your questions, they aren't relevant to the topic.

Why not?

 

[wynn]

What does make a diference to the argument is that the all-knowin God is suposed to be fare an just an yet he created humans who have no choise but to sin... an mos of 'em will wind up bein tortured for eternity.!!!

If you inturpet the bible in such a way that gives mor than 1 life... it dont mater... that was also pre-determined by God... an that estra life jus slightly delays the onset of eternal hell for those who God pre-destined to go to hell.!!!

You seem to be very sure that there is such a thing as eternal hellfire.
What makes you so sure of that?

 

[Dywyddyr]

So? What is your point?

The point would be as previously stated: we were set up and started with the knowledge that wars &c would be our lot.
Back to the sadistic puppet-master accusation.
If omniscience exists then all we are is clockwork toys playing the script out for the amusement and edification of god.

Why not?

I'm sorry, but I fail entirely to see what my personal feelings have to do with the question of "were we predestined or not?".
How, exactly, do my feelings affect the question (or the facts [whatever the facts are], or the logic) one way or the other?

 

[wynn]

The point would be as previously stated: we were set up and started with the knowledge that wars &c would be our lot.
Back to the sadistic puppet-master accusation.
If omniscience exists the all we are is clockwork toys playing the script out for the amusement and edification of god.

But it is allright if modern science tells us that we are ruled by our genes, or that we are basically nothing but bio-chemical reactions or something to that effect?

I'm sorry, but I fail entirely to see what my personal feelings have to do with the question of "were we predestined or not?".
How, exactly, do my feelings affect the question (or the facts [whatever the facts are], or the logic) one way or the other?

You don't think that the theist-atheist debate and its conclusions have something personally to do with you, with how you live your daily life?

 

[Dywyddyr]

But it is allright if modern science tells us that we are ruled by our genes, or that we are basically nothing but bio-chemical reactions or something to that effect?

Does any of that remove the possibility of free will?
Omniscience does...
Regardless, even if we were entirely slaves to our genes and bio-chemical reactions then we're doing what we do because it's how it turned out: not because we made to do so by "a loving god".

You don't think that the theist-atheist debate and its conclusions have something personally to do with you, with how you live your daily life?

Nice try, but that's not what's under discussion here is it?
I repeat: what possible bearing could my feelings have on the conclusion that I was made to be what I am? Whatever I feel is what I was intended to feel... and doesn't alter the fact that it boots nothing in the end. Does it matter if computer programme simulates anger when it was written to do so? Or expresses "joy" if that's how it was coded?

 

[scifes]

Wrong.
If I tell you to choose which door to go through (out of two) to win a prize and they both lead to the same room how is that not a subjective choice that is objectively no choice?

in this good example, does what you choose make a difference?
does the (illusionary) choice exist? does it affect the outcome in any way?

meaning, here if you choose right it's prize, if you choose left it's prize.
with god, if you're going to take prize you choose prize.
i find it a bit different.
in one the choice is meaningless, in the other the choice is everything, it's the "medium" of knowledge becoming (being) true.
:scratchin:
but you were right about the objective-subjective combination, i'm just not seeing it apply to our matter.

 

[cluelusshusbund]

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
What does make a diference to the argument is that the all-knowin God is suposed to be fare an just an yet he created humans who have no choise but to sin... an mos of 'em will wind up bein tortured for eternity.!!!

What paart of that (if any) do you disagree wit.???

If you inturpet the bible in such a way that gives mor than 1 life... it dont mater... that was also pre-determined by God... an that estra life jus slightly delays the onset of eternal hell for those who God pre-destined to go to hell.!!!

What paart of that (if any) do you disagree wit.???

You seem to be very sure that there is such a thing as eternal hellfire.
What makes you so sure of that?

I dont have beleifs that hellfire esists... eternal or not.!!!

Do you define the Holey-Bible God in such a way that he can esist... which debunks the argument of this thred (that God cant esist)... an if so... state what it is.???

 

[Dywyddyr]

in this good example, does what you choose make a difference?
does the (illusionary) choice exist? does it affect the outcome in any way?

Can you not read?

meaning, here if you choose right it's prize, if you choose left it's prize.

The choice is subjective only: whichever door you pick you end up in exactly the same position: with only one possible outcome.

but you were right about the objective-subjective combination, i'm just not seeing it apply to our matter.

Then try thinking.

 

[scifes]

ok, D's in a bad mood today..

Can you not read?

you sure that's a question you put in writing?

The choice is subjective only: whichever door you pick you end up in exactly the same position: with only one possible outcome.

didn't you put that example to show me that choice is not only subjective?

Then try thinking.

there's a difference between a choice that makes a difference in the outcome and another that does not.
even if the choice(the final one) is fixed.

in the matter we are discussing, what you choose decides (affects) what you end up with, in your example, what you choose makes no difference. even though in both cases the final result cannot be changed;
one preordained result is reached by you choosing.
the other preordained result is reached independent of your choice.

i think it sums things up quite nicely.
and have a cuppa tea with a spo' a-milk before you reply eh?

 

[Dywyddyr]

ok, D's in a bad mood today..

Pray you never get me in a bad mood.

you sure that's a question you put in writing?

Positive: witnessed by the fact that I did.

didn't you put that example to show me that choice is not only subjective?

That example was what you asked for: a subjective choice that is objectively no choice.

there's a difference between a choice that makes a difference in the outcome and another that does not.
even if the choice(the final one) is fixed.

What's your point? I was illustrating a case where someone thinks he has a choice when in reality he doesn't.

in the matter we are discussing, what you choose decides (affects) what you end up with, in your example, what you choose makes no difference. even though in both cases the final result cannot be changed;
one preordained result is reached by you choosing.
the other preordained result is reached independent of your choice.

Wrong again. I gave an illustration of subjective choice/ objective no choice.

i think it sums things up quite nicely.
and have a cuppa tea with a spo' a-milk before you reply eh?

I don't drink tea.