"proof that the christian god can't exist, debunked"

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

No people I haven't suddenly turned to Jesus but Scifes asked me to post this for him. It addresses some comments and ideas previously made while sparring with Cris.

*knowing the result of a given choice doesn't stop it from being taken
out of free will.

You give your cat two bowls of food, you know which one it'll choose,
doesn't mean it didn't choose it out of its free will.

*a given choice having a set of predetermined results means nothing
for the one taking the choice if he didn't know the predetermined
result assigned to him.

An entity A exists in the universe, A has true real free will, it uses
it to make a choice, another entity B billions of light years away
takes a look into a telescope and says "I knew it", entity A doesn't
hear entity B.

*one putting another in a scenario where he knows the subject will
make a negative choice out of his free will, is not an unjust action,
because the subject DID choose it out of his free will and wasn't
forced so the blame is exclusively on him, but such action is
naturally questionable.God's actions are unquestionable, both because we can do nothing about them, also because he has no needs to fulfill, all his actions are doing as he wants to.

you give your brother a chocolate cake and a salad dish to choose
from. You know he'll choose the cake. But it is not your fault that he
chose it. Nor are you unjust for letting him make the choice.

In conclusion: we determine which predetermined destiny to end up
with. We simply make the choice. whatever we choose, becomes/turnes
out to be our predetermined destiny.

quotes:
"Any apparent choice we make regarding the acceptance or denial of
Jesus as a savior is predetermined"

But unknown.

"Effectively we have no choice in the matter."
Please demonstrate.

"Our choices have been coerced since we exist and act according to the
will of God"

What if god's will is for us to have a will of our own, displayed in
the ability to disbelieve in him, to kill and rape..?

"Alternatively if human free will is valid, meaning that the outcome
of our decisions is not pre-determined or coerced, then God cannot be
omniscient, since he would not know in advance our decisions"

The outcome of our decisions is predetermined but not coerced; god is
omniscient but exclusively so.

"If God knows the decision of every individual, before they are born,
regarding the acceptance or denial of Jesus as a savior, then why does
he create one set of individuals destined for heaven and another set
destined for eternal damnation?"

Valid question.
"This seems unjust, perverse and particularly evil"

Not if the set of individuals reached their predestined destiny with
their own free will.

 

[Dywyddyr]

As usual Scifes misses the point;

knowing the result of a given choice doesn't stop it from being taken out of free will.

But it does.

You give your cat two bowls of food, you know which one it'll choose,
doesn't mean it didn't choose it out of its free will.

But we don't know, we assume, but we cannot be absolutely 100% certain.
The cat might choose differently, it might die suddenly, etc etc.

a given choice having a set of predetermined results means nothing
for the one taking the choice if he didn't know the predetermined
result assigned to him.

If the results are known beforehand then they are pre-ordained, irrevocably fixed, and no other option (than the one taken) is possible, we would be running on rails, following an unseen but locked script whatever we might tell ourselves about "choice".

Not if the set of individuals reached their predestined destiny with
their own free will.

There's the crux: if it's predestined then we didn't have the choice...

 

[-ND-]

No people I haven't suddenly turned to Jesus but Scifes asked me to post this for him. It addresses some comments and ideas previously made while sparring with Cris.

*knowing the result of a given choice doesn't stop it from being taken
out of free will.

You give your cat two bowls of food, you know which one it'll choose,
doesn't mean it didn't choose it out of its free will.

*a given choice having a set of predetermined results means nothing
for the one taking the choice if he didn't know the predetermined
result assigned to him.

An entity A exists in the universe, A has true real free will, it uses
it to make a choice, another entity B billions of light years away
takes a look into a telescope and says "I knew it", entity A doesn't
hear entity B.

*one putting another in a scenario where he knows the subject will
make a negative choice out of his free will, is not an unjust action,
because the subject DID choose it out of his free will and wasn't
forced so the blame is exclusively on him, but such action is
naturally questionable.God's actions are unquestionable, both because we can do nothing about them, also because he has no needs to fulfill, all his actions are doing as he wants to.

you give your brother a chocolate cake and a salad dish to choose
from. You know he'll choose the cake. But it is not your fault that he
chose it. Nor are you unjust for letting him make the choice.

In conclusion: we determine which predetermined destiny to end up
with. We simply make the choice. whatever we choose, becomes/turnes
out to be our predetermined destiny.

quotes:
"Any apparent choice we make regarding the acceptance or denial of
Jesus as a savior is predetermined"

But unknown.

"Effectively we have no choice in the matter."
Please demonstrate.

"Our choices have been coerced since we exist and act according to the
will of God"

What if god's will is for us to have a will of our own, displayed in
the ability to disbelieve in him, to kill and rape..?

"Alternatively if human free will is valid, meaning that the outcome
of our decisions is not pre-determined or coerced, then God cannot be
omniscient, since he would not know in advance our decisions"

The outcome of our decisions is predetermined but not coerced; god is
omniscient but exclusively so.

"If God knows the decision of every individual, before they are born,
regarding the acceptance or denial of Jesus as a savior, then why does
he create one set of individuals destined for heaven and another set
destined for eternal damnation?"

Valid question.
"This seems unjust, perverse and particularly evil"

Not if the set of individuals reached their predestined destiny with
their own free will.

It is a matter of change. Nothing stays the same. God is always rebuilding and building because people change. The numbers in heaven and hell are always changing. It is a contstant battle. Change is the answer you are looking for.

 

[scorpius]

The numbers in heaven and hell are always changing. .

you been there and counted them have you?

 

[ChildOfGod777]

Predestination is good news!!!

The Good news is that God does predestine and determine SOME things, and others he ALLOWS.

Predestination is real. God chooses. His choice over-rules your choice. And there is nothing you can do about it!

If God wants to save you, He will, and you can't stop him. He will pursue you, find you, change your heart, love you with unfailing love, and you will respond to Him.... why? Because when God chooses, it happens. PERIOD.

When Jesus rose Lazarus from the dead, Laz didn't get to choose. Jesus said, "COME FORTH"!!! and it happened. Just like us, we are DEAD in our sins, and then God awakens us when He chooses, and we respond because He chose! I LOVE IT! God is powerful, He speaks things into existance.

But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God CHOSE YOU TO BE SAVED through the
sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. He CALLED you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord
Jesus Christ. (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14)

"Who has saved us and CALLED us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in
Christ Jesus from all eternity," (2 Timothy 1:9)


"I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart (will) of flesh.
I will put My Spirit within you and CAUSE you to walk in My statutes, and YOU WILL keep My judgments and do them." (Ezek. 36:26-27)

"For God has put it into their hearts to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are
fulfilled." (Rev. 17:17)

"The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD...He turns it wherever He wishes. (Pr. 21:1)

God CHOOSES. He makes plans. He does what he pleases. Who is man to tell God what to do....

"The Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets" (1 Kings 22:23)

"God sent a spirit of ill will between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech" (Jud. 9:23)

The LORD works out everything for his own ends— even the wicked for a day of disaster. Proverbs 16:4


The LORD said to him, "Who gave man his mouth? Who makes him deaf or mute? Who gives him sight or makes him blind? Is it not I, the LORD?
Exodus 4:11


BUT THERE IS GOOD NEWS!!!!!! God loves.... PREDESTINATION IS LOVE!!!

IN LOVE he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will.... Eph 1:5

"For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified." (Romans 8:29-30)

FOREKNEW means to know "intimately" not having knowledge of. But an intimate loving relationship. Do you know God intimately?

There is a ton more info I need to give you...

But just know that God makes himself known to people, he reveals himself to whom he chooses, he loves and saves all that he plans. He does not fail.

Nor is he unjust to punish anyone. All deserve to die. We have all chosen death. If you have ever chosen sin ONE TIME, you have chosen death. You
then deserve hell. We all deserve it!! If anyone should be mad, it's the Christian who isn't getting what he has chosen! Even the christian chose death, but God chose salvation for him! THAT'S LOVE, That's predestination.

Before the world, God chose to save me.

How do I know?

He revealed Himself to me, He pursued me with an UNFAILING love, a love that can't fail to save me. And of course I responded!!! How can't I? It's like walking up to someone and offering them a billion dollars for free. WHO WOULDN'T TAKE THAT!?!?! The only person who wouldn't take it is the person who doesn't understand. If you didn't know what money was, or had no understanding on money, you wouldn't want it, because it has no value to you. God gave me understanding, to know him, and to know what it means to have life in Him. SO OF COURSE I RESPONDED! And now He sustains me, keeps me strong to the end! He keeps me on the path, keeps me repenting, keeps me in His love.

being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus. (Phil 1:6)

He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God, who has called you
into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful. (1 Corinth 1:8-9)

May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming
of our Lord Jesus Christ. The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it. (1 Thess 5:23-24)

To Him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— to the only
God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen. (Jude 1:24-24)

My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of
my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. (John 10:27-29 )

Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith (Hebrews 12:2)

"I will put My fear in their hearts so that they will not depart from Me." (Jer. 32:40)

Surely God is my help; the Lord is the one who sustains me. (Psalm 54:4)

Restore to me the joy of your salvation and grant me a willing spirit, to sustain me. (Psalm 51:12)


I have waaaay more proof if this isn't enough. I also can answer any questions you may have!

 

[spidergoat]

If God knows everything he's going to do, why go through the formality of doing it?

 

[Dywyddyr]

The Good news is that God does predestine and determine SOME things, and others he ALLOWS.

Supposition.

Predestination is real. God chooses. His choice over-rules your choice. And there is nothing you can do about it!

More supposition.

Followed by lots of nothing.

Nor is he unjust to punish anyone. All deserve to die. We have all chosen death. If you have ever chosen sin ONE TIME, you have chosen death. You then deserve hell.

Slightly harsh don't you think?
Death penalty and everlasting Hell for stealing a pencil from work.

How do I know?

You don't know, you believe.

Followed by lots more nothing.

I have waaaay more proof if this isn't enough.

You don't have any proof.

I also can answer any questions you may have!

By quoting someone else's words? How, um, clever of you...

 

[ChildOfGod777]

I'm about to give you a lot of info... so read carefully...

It's true. My proof is based on the bible AND experience. If you don't believe in the bible, or have never experienced God, of course you don't believe. I don't expect you to. I was just like you, until God revealed himself to me.

And the reason you don't believe is because God hasn't revealed himself to you. But however, IF God reveals himself to you, then you will believe in Jesus & the bible, just like I do. Let me show you...

Because I can show you in the bible WHY you are the way you are. You will al least agree that it makes sense to you, even if you doubt God exists, this SHOULD still make sense to you. It's truth. You don't believe because God has chosen you..... YET! lol

so check it out... and read slowly if you have to, read carefully and really listen to what it's saying....

Luke 10:22
"All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows who the Son is except the Father, and no one knows who the Father is except the Son and those to whom the Son CHOOSES to reveal him." -Jesus, the son, CHOOSES whom to reveal God to.

"I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me; I was found by those who did not seek me. To a nation that did not call on my name, I said, 'Here am I, here am I.' ISAIAH 65:1 (God revealed himself to people who CHOSE to reveal himself to)

John 5:21
For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. -YES, to whom HE IS PLEASED TO GIVE IT.

Jesus declares that God has CHOSEN and GIVEN people to Him, and those people that God chose to give to him WILL COME TO JESUS and no one can stop it. It's inevitable. It will happen. Jesus says it...

"All that the Father gives me WILL COME TO ME, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away." John 6:37 - Pretty obvious right here!!! If JESUS says you are coming to him, YOU ARE COMING!!!!

Jesus answered. "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:44 -YOU CAN'T COME TO JESUS unless He says you can! AGAIN we see it. The Father will DRAW a person to Him and he will SAVE THEM if He so chooses. IF He doesn't draw you, YOU WON'T BELIEVE!

Now here is a good bit of info... but read this.... Jesus is talking to the disciples here...

John 6:60-70
On hearing it, many of his disciples said, "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?"
Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, "Does this offend you? What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. He went on to say, "This is why I told you that NO ONE CAN COME TO ME UNLESS THE FATHER HAS ENABLED HIM." From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him. "You do not want to leave too, do you?" Jesus asked the Twelve. Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God." Then Jesus replied, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve?

SEE IT AGAIN!?!? Jesus knows, And God ENABLES people to come to Him. HE CHOOSES!!! The reason this whole JESUS thing makes sense to me... He chose me, revealed himself to me. I was JUST LIKE YOU until He did it.

Now check out how God does whatever he wants...

Isaiah 46:9-11
Remember the former things, those of long ago;
I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me.
I make known the end from the beginning,
from ancient times, what is still to come.
I say: My purpose will stand,
and I will do all that I please.
From the east I summon a bird of prey;
from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose.
What I have said, that will I bring about;
what I have planned, that will I do.

NO ONE TELLS GOD how to run things. NO ONE. HIS GREATNESS cannot even be FATHOMED! When God speaks, IT HAPPENS! He spoke the world into existence, He spoke planets into existence, when He speaks, it happens! That's power.

Now here is EVEN MORE info...

You STILL don't believe? YOU STILL REJECT GOD?? of course you do... I'll show you why... because ALL MEN REJECT GOD... until He reveals himself to them, and gives them understanding, gives them eyes to see and ears to hear, gives them a new heart and new desires... but check out the evilness of man....

And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil CONTINUALLY. Genises 6:5

The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: "Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though EVERY INCLINATION of his heart is EVIL from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done. Genesis 8:21(this was right after the FLOOD with Noah. He even brought the flood because man was so evil!!! God destroys evil whenever He chooses to) We see here also that man is VERY EVIL!!!

The LORD looks down from heaven on the sons of men to see if there are ANY who understand, any who seek God. ALL have turned aside, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one. Psalm 14:1-3

"As it is written: 'There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God.'" (Romans 3:10-11)

OK... so do you understand man is evil? All men HATE and reject God!!! SO.... God CHOSE to take it upon himself to change that. HE decided to make SOME people NEW. Give SOME people understanding. GIVE SOME people new hearts and new desires. And after doing that, those people in return will seek him, and love him, and live for him. Which is what I first stated at the begining. God CHOOSES to reveal himself to people, at different times, as he pleases.

STILL DON'T BELIEVE ME!?!?! it's because Jesus hasn't given you EYES to see the truth or EARS to hear the truth!

Matthew 13... Jesus speaks here...

"The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been GIVEN to you, but not to them.

"Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

(YOU SEE what I am typing but don't understand? You hear the gospel but still don't understand it? You haven't been given ears to hear, or eyes to see!!!!)

In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
" 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
For this people's heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.' But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.

This passage is in the bible in 4 different places... It's clear that some people won't understand. He even gives a parable with this reguarding HEARING the word of God... also here in matthew 13...

"Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away. The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful. But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and understands it. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown."

I LOVE IT!!!!! It's so true.

Ok so hopefully by now you are starting to take this in and understand it. But LIKE I HAVE SAID.... the only way you will even understand what I am saying is if God chooses to open your heart to what I am saying.... which is what he did in the bible with a lady... check it out....

We sat down and began to speak to the women who had gathered there. One of those listening was a woman named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord OPENED HER HEART to respond to Paul's message.

The Lord will open up a heart to respond IF HE CHOOSES to do so. If not, you won't believe anything I am saying. But the good news.... Is I believe HE will. I believe you are starting to think about it RIGHT NOW. I believe you came to this page for a reason! I believe God wanted me to share this with you, He wants to open your heart, He wants to save you, He wants you to know Him, and He is revealing Himself to you through this message!!!

If you haven't understood it, read this again. Let it sink in. God will show you himself. Once you know it's true.... REPENT of your sin, ask to be baptized by His holy spirit and HE WILL SEND HIS SPIRIT INTO YOUR SOUL!!!! You will be made new!!!

Acts 2:38
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Mark 1:15
"The time has come," he said. "The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!"

Luke 13:3
I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.

Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Acts 2:21
And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.'

Acts 4:12
Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."

Acts 16:31
They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household."

Romans 10:9
That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

AND REMEMBER.... Jesus is the only way...

John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.


I'll be praying for you

 

[Dywyddyr]

It's true. My proof is based on the bible AND experience.

It's true for you: not true as a provable truth.

If you don't believe in the bible

QED: it's belief, not knowledge.

And the reason you don't believe is because God hasn't revealed himself to you.

Nope.

Because I can show you in the bible WHY you are the way you are. You will al least agree that it makes sense to you, even if you doubt God exists, this SHOULD still make sense to you. It's truth. You don't believe because God has chosen you..... YET! lol

More assumptions on your part.

(YOU SEE what I am typing but don't understand? You hear the gospel but still don't understand it? You haven't been given ears to hear, or eyes to see!!!!)

I understand it: I just don't see any reason to believe it.

I'll be praying for you

Only because it makes you feel better: it does nothing for me.

 

[ChildOfGod777]

No, you don't understand. If you did, you would be living for Jesus.

It's like me offering you a billion dollars in cash and then you responding with "I understand the value of money, I just don't want it".

You think I believe this cause it makes me feel better?!?!? LOL

I believe this because It's true. I don't want to live a lie. I want to live in the truth. And the truth is that I'm going to spend eternity with God in a world with no pain and be filled with joy and hope. Like a permanent vacation FOREVER.

Those who reject Him spend forever in HELL!

How can this do nothing for you....??? ....oh I know why it does nothing.... you don't "understand it". You haven't been given the understanding. And until your heart opens up to it, you will always reject God. The bible BLANTANTLY says it. I just showed you in scripture. Not to mention I have another hundered verses or so backing it up even more.

Oh well, I have done what I needed to. I know that If God wants to save you, He will get to you one day. He will pursue you to a point where you cannot run anymore. He will reveal himself to you, love you, and save you.... If he so chooses. I'll be praying for you. Seriously.

 

[Dywyddyr]

No, you don't understand. If you did, you would be living for Jesus.

It's you that doesn't understand. I do understand I just don't believe. Your failure of understanding is that you can't see how someone can not believe.

It's like me offering you a billion dollars in cash and then you responding with "I understand the value of money, I just don't want it".

And your point would be...? You think there aren't any people who don't care about money?

You think I believe this cause it makes me feel better?!?!? LOL

Please re-read what I wrote, and what I replied to. I said that praying would make you feel better, it does nothing for me.

I believe this because It's true. I don't want to live a lie.

And because no one wants to think they're living a lie they convince themselves that what they believe IS true. However you cannot demonstrate that it is so.

I want to live in the truth. And the truth is that I'm going to spend eternity with God in a world with no pain and be filled with joy and hope. Like a permanent vacation FOREVER.
Those who reject Him spend forever in HELL!

Wild supposition...

How can this do nothing for you....??? ....oh I know why it does nothing.... you don't "understand it". You haven't been given the understanding. And until your heart opens up to it, you will always reject God. The bible BLANTANTLY says it. I just showed you in scripture. Not to mention I have another hundered verses or so backing it up even more.

What a wonderfully self-sustaining argument. If I don't believe it's because god doesn't want me to, if I do believe it's because god showed me...
You post any verse you like from the bible: it still won't prove it's true, since you can't prove the bible is true.

I'll be praying for you. Seriously.

Only if it makes you feel better. Otherwise save your energy. I don't need, or want, your prayers.

 

[ChildOfGod777]

You don't believe the bible... even though the bible clearly states that someone who doesn't believe only "doesn't believe" because God hasn't revealed himself to them and hasn't chosen to give them understanding. Which is EXACTLY what is happening here! You can't believe it unless God does a work in your heart.

You can't disagree with the fact that God hasn't chosen you. You just have to accept that! You have absolutely nothing at all to prove to me that it is false.

However, I have proof it is true. Everything I have said is EXACTLY what is happening here.

But man.... like I said before.... God can still save you. He can (and probably will) save you. The very fact that you happen to be talking to me now is because God loves you. He wanted you to hear this. And he is using me to get to you. God uses his people to "chose" or to "elect" more people.

You may still be running from God, you may still reject him today. BUT ONE DAY, He'll get into your heart, He'll pursue you so incredibly that you won't be able to sleep. You'll go crazy until you know Him. Once you know Jesus, you have peace, you have life, and you LOVE IT!!! seriously man.

Look, I'm just a 26 year old guy who loves jesus. Everything I speak to you is true. I don't want to argue with you man.... I want you to see the light. I believe one day you'll see it.

You mind telling me your name?

 

[Dywyddyr]

You don't believe the bible... even though the bible clearly states that someone who doesn't believe only "doesn't believe" because God hasn't revealed himself to them and hasn't chosen to give them understanding. Which is EXACTLY what is happening here! You can't believe it unless God does a work in your heart.

Like I said: the perfect self-supporting argument.
Why should I believe the bible?
Because it's true?
Who says it's true?
Er, the bible does...

You can't disagree with the fact that God hasn't chosen you.

Of course I can.
In order for god to have chosen me he has to exist in the first place.

However, I have proof it is true.

Not at all. None.

The very fact that you happen to be talking to me now is because God loves you. He wanted you to hear this. And he is using me to get to you.

Too funny.

You may still be running from God, you may still reject him today. BUT ONE DAY, He'll get into your heart, He'll pursue you so incredibly that you won't be able to sleep. You'll go crazy until you know Him. Once you know Jesus, you have peace, you have life, and you LOVE IT!!! seriously man.

More assumptions...

Everything I speak to you is true.

Nope: everything you say you believe to be true. But you can't prove it.

You mind telling me your name?

For what reason?
If it's to pray, like I said, don't bother... And you shouldn't need my name anyway, since IF god exists he'd know A) who I am and B) who you mean.

 

[ChildOfGod777]

haha TRUE. I don't need your name. But I'd like to know it, so that I know who I am praying for. But yes, obviously God knows your name, and He knows who I am praying for!

You keep saying "I can't prove it". That's the typical statement. Romans 1:20 says that God's existence is proved in the creation of the world. That is proof enough. Obviously you want more proof.

Well, you may not know it, but the bible was written in different places all over the world, by different people who never knew each other. The Old testiment written in hebrew and the new in greek. How is it that the 66 books written all happened to match up? They all equal one book, that all lines up? Written by different people in different languges. Yet some of the authors had never read any other sections? Or spoke other laguages. How is it that over 150 PROPHECIES were written and then they all came to be!?!? For example, in the old testement, over 150 things were written that ACTUALLY HAPPENED. In psalm David writes what is going to happen to Jesus on the cross EXACTLY and QUOTES what people will say, and it dates back 500 years BEFORE IT HAPPENED! AND IT HAPPENED EXACTLY WHAT HE WROTE!!! In fact, the ACTUAL MANUSCRIPTS are still in tact, with the actual dates. No other book or manuscripts can claim what the bible can. No other religion has prophecies dated and written in books that have happened. Only the bible. Christianity is different that all other religions. BY FAR. The bible also has another 150 prophices that HAVEN'T happened yet.... BUT WILL. LIke revelation, the end of the wolrd. Those will all be fulfilled just as the other prophices were ALL FULFILLED!!!

But that's still not good enough for you?

Just know that God wants to save you. He has used me to speak to you. And probably other people in the past, and more will come in the future. You will die one day and you will stand before God. GUARANTEED. Just know this... God has been gracious to you your whole life. He hasn't sent you to hell after you have sinned against his holy law. He could have, but he is patient, and loving. He contineues to speak to you. He is speaking through me right now. SO REMEMBER, on that Day you stand before Him, hopefully you will have changed by then. But IF NOT, know that you will be punished, and sent to hell for CONTINUING to REJECT HIM. When you ask him "how were you supposed to know"? Or that "you needed proof". He will simply tell you that He tried to tell you, over and over and you never listened. That you never once tried to reach out to him. You never cared about him. You only cared about yourself. And He will be JUST to punish you. I just pray that never happens.

I really am praying for you. I hope this sinks in your heart.

Oh and my name is Steve

 

[Dywyddyr]

haha TRUE. I don't need your name. But I'd like to know it, so that I know who I am praying for.

So that you can feel better about yourself?

Romans 1:20 says that God's existence is proved in the creation of the world. That is proof enough.

No it isn't: what proof do you have that the bible (and specifically Romans 1:20) is anything more than guess work?

Well, you may not know it, but the bible was written in different places all over the world, by different people who never knew each other. The Old testiment written in hebrew and the new in greek. How is it that the 66 books written all happened to match up? They all equal one book, that all lines up? Written by different people in different languges.

And you're probably ignoring the fact that at the Council of Nicaea (among others) the texts that would be published/ released to constitute the bible were carefully selected (and edited?) to support the then-current desired "take" on things.
So you're claiming that none of the books contradict each other? At all?

How is it that over 150 PROPHECIES were written and then they all came to be!?!? For example, in the old testement, over 150 things were written that ACTUALLY HAPPENED.

150 eh?
Got a link?

In psalm David writes what is going to happen to Jesus on the cross EXACTLY and QUOTES what people will say, and it dates back 500 years BEFORE IT HAPPENED! AND IT HAPPENED EXACTLY WHAT HE WROTE!!!

Really?
It definitely wasn't edited at all?
It's not a question of interpretation?

In fact, the ACTUAL MANUSCRIPTS are still in tact, with the actual dates.

Link?

The bible also has another 150 prophices that HAVEN'T happened yet.... BUT WILL.

Supposition...

You will die one day and you will stand before God. GUARANTEED.

Nope.

Just know this...

:roflmao:

But IF NOT, know that you will be punished, and sent to hell for CONTINUING to REJECT HIM. When you ask him "how were you supposed to know"? Or that "you needed proof". He will simply tell you that He tried to tell you, over and over and you never listened. That you never once tried to reach out to him. You never cared about him.

And if god does exist and he made me then he made me to be exactly the way I am: if I don't believe it's his fault.

 

[spidergoat]

Steve, you are mistaken about a great many things. For instance, although there were many authors of the Bible, their accounts differ so much, it is possible for scholars to assign certain texts to specific authors. On the subject of prophecies, the authors knew what the old prophecies were, and altered the story to fit them. Sometimes, this happened much later, as with the mistranslation into Greek from Aramaic of a word meaning "young woman". It was translated as virgin, which is where the concept of virgin birth came from. Interestingly, virgin birth was a feature of other, more ancient religions too, so maybe it wasn't as much a mistake as a deliberate alteration to make the story more compelling.

Besides, books in general aren't proof of much of anything. While certain historical facts are represented in the Bible, we have no way of knowing if the rest of it is true. It's quite possible that there was no person we know as Jesus.

 

[ChildOfGod777]

Ok here is ONE site that has just 100 prophicies... i know there are more.... but this should keep you busy awhile. It breaks them into subjects. Take time to read them. Seriously.

w w w . 100 prophecies . o r g /

Next, the bible doesn't contradict. It only condradicts if you don't understand what is being written to whom or why. Just as an example.... In the old testement there was a lot of extra laws for a group of people at a certain time. SOME of them don't apply to us. They were just for a certian people. Like shaving your beard or a tatoo. Kind of like if you parents told your sister that she couldn't have a boyfriend until she was 16, but they let YOU have a girlfriend at the age of 16. Only because you were the guy. Sometimes different rules are set for different people. BUT SOME will say.... OH IT SAYS IT, IT MUST APPLY TO EVERYONE. Which isn't true. THIS SORT OF THING HAPPENES ALLLLLLL THE TIME. People don't understand it was for a time or purpose. Some things written in the bible were written only to BELIEVERS, some times it's written to a specific group. You have to study. The answers are there.

Next, what spider says isn't correct. The authors didn't just read prophicies and make up a story to fit it! lol. That ridiculous. Who would make up a story about death on a cross? And AFTER Jesus ressurected 500 PEOPLE WITNESSED IT. Then Jesus left and told peter he would build his church on a rock (aka JESUS IS THE ROCK) And he said "And the gates of hades will not overtake it". And what do ya know.... 2000 years later we still have the church, that grew from 500 people, and the gates of Hell hasn't stop us. INTERESTING. Another PROPHECY fulfilled!

AND BESIDES ALL OF THIS INFO that is blatantly true. I told you I have had EXPERIENCE as well. You see, not only did God choose to show me truth, but he let me see it first hand and experience the power of God. He gave me understanding.

How do you explain me CHANGING just like the bible says. It says once you recieve Christ you get a new heart, new mind, and new desires. THAT HAPPENED. It says I will be connected to Jesus and bear fruit. I LOVE TO TALK ABOUT Jesus. The bible said this would happen and it has. I have watched the change in my life and in the lives of others. I have seen his miracles. From people getting healed of Brain tumors to people being healed of cancer. I have watched God provide for me in my life. He is real. I can't denie it.

 

[Dywyddyr]

Ok here is ONE site that has just 100 prophicies...

And most of those are so vague to begin with they could have anything claimed to fulfil them, and the site itself states that there's contradictory interpretations (but dismisses the contra-proposals as coming from "unbelievers").
For example:

God will never forget the children of Israel
Bible prophecy: Isaiah 49:13-17
Prophecy written: Between 701-681 BC
Prophecy fulfilled: Throughout history

There was, for example, a fairly lengthy period ('39-'45, remember it?) where they weren't particularly looked after...

Next, the bible doesn't contradict.

One site:
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html
Typical example:

GEN 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
GEN 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

GEN 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
GEN 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

Oops.
Or:

PRO 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

PRO 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

Next, what spider says isn't correct. The authors didn't just read prophicies and make up a story to fit it! lol. That ridiculous.

Wrong again: there's (as far as I know) documented evidence that spider's remarks are correct.

AND BESIDES ALL OF THIS INFO that is blatantly true.

You mean you believe it's true.

I told you I have had EXPERIENCE as well.

And?
Experience is entirely subjective...

How do you explain me CHANGING just like the bible says.

People change all the time.

I have seen his miracles. From people getting healed of Brain tumors to people being healed of cancer.

You've actually seen this have you? You're qualified to diagnose cancer/ brain tumours?
You have proof they had cancer/ brain tumour and then they didn't?

 

[spidergoat]

Ok here is ONE site that has just 100 prophicies... .

Considering that the entire bible was written long after the alleged death of the alleged Jesus, they could all be made up. Give me 50 years, and I could write a book that correctly "predicted" everything that would happen in 2010.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

*************
M*W: Welcome to Sciforums. What was it that led you to Sciforums? God is glad you are here. You might think that you found Sciforums on your own, but God sent you here to learn. God knows you are still young and impessionable. God knows you have been taught the bible, and he is genuinely concerned for you. Those before you, your parents and grandparents, etc., have taught you what they believe. That happens. It's an expected part of parenthood to do that. But, I wonder how much thought you have had on your own, IOW, finding your own interpretation of what your ancestors have told you?

Because you preach a lot in your posts, that shows me that you are not using your own wits to think about what you are saying. That is not why god gave you a brain. He intends for you to use it.

In order to truly learn about the bible, you must learn as much as you can about the history surrounding the bible times, because there is a difference between literary history and actual history. One is literal and the other is metaphorical.

Since god led you to this site, you must pay attention and learn. You wouldn't want to disappoint god, would you?