Proof that the Christian god cannot exist

[Dywyddyr]

When is it going to be picked differently? And what has that got to do with Free Will? If I was 100% sure I had Free Will, and it was 100% proved, even Free Will does not allow you to make 2 different choices at the same time.

Irrelevant. Again.

Could it be picked differently?
Not if knowledge exists of what the pick "was/ will be".

 

[Pincho Paxton]

Pincho, I have a question for you.

Say God sees you (in his 'future-memory') hit a kid with your car tomorrow afternoon.
Could he prevent it if he wanted to?

No he couldn't. He would have to figure it out without looking at the future. He could alter Cause, and effect, but once he looked at the future you have already done it.

 

[Enmos]

No he couldn't. He would have to figure it out without looking at the future. He could alter Cause, and effect, but once he looked at the future you have already done it.

So God is not omnipotent then?

He would have to figure it out without looking at the future.

That would be impossible. God would have to know everything that will ever happen from the instant he came into 'existence' according to the logic in the picture.
If God always existed that would mean that he never gained any knowledge. Edit ..of the future.

 

[Pincho Paxton]

Irrelevant. Again.

Could it be picked differently?
Not if knowledge exists of what the pick "was/ will be".

Again.. requires 2 timelines, you only have 1. That isn't Free Will.

 

[Dywyddyr]

No he couldn't. He would have to figure it out without looking at the future. He could alter Cause, and effect

Also wrong.
If god figures something out he does it with perfect knowledge, from the given start (of the universe) conditions.
Any conclusion god comes to from "figuring it out" must also be inviolable and inevitable.

 

[Pincho Paxton]

Also wrong.
If god figures something out he does it with perfect knowledge, from the given start (of the universe) conditions.
Any conclusion god comes to from "figuring it out" must also be inviolable and inevitable.

Not if you allow Free Will. You have to allow it for this to be the Christian God.

 

[Dywyddyr]

Again.. requires 2 timelines

So what?
We only have, as you have agreed, ONE timeline. Therefore if the outcome of a choice is known, at all, then that choice is irrevocable.
There is no free will if the result is known before the choice is made.

 

[Pincho Paxton]

So what?
We only have, as you have agreed, ONE timeline. Therefore if the outcome of a choice is known, at all, then that choice is irrevocable.
There is no free will if the result is known before the choice is made.

The choice is always irrevocable even with Free Will. You can't do something different. You have 1 timeline, you eat the apple.. where does another chance come from?

 

[Pincho Paxton]

So God is not omnipotent then?


That would be impossible. God would have to know everything that will ever happen from the instant he came into 'existence' according to the logic in the picture.
If God always existed that would mean that he never gained any knowledge. Edit ..of the future.

The Christian God allows Free Will, so to stick with a Christian God we have to have certain strict rules. We aren't allowed to deliberately use a science that we know full well isn't free will to begin with.. else we only win a fake argument. Christians can come back, and say we cheated.

 

[Pineal]

Had to?

Well, if free will is an illusion, that it was determined you would have that belief and express it at that time, well, going back...all the way back to the Big Expansion. So yes, I think a determinist is saying that any belief they have they had to have and it was determined they would have it - not in any teleological sort of way - well before they were born.

Can you show it's not?

I can't see how either free will or determinism can be falsified.

 

[Dywyddyr]

The choice is always irrevocable even with Free Will. You can't do something different. You have 1 timeline, you eat the apple.. where does another chance come from?

The Christian God allows Free Will, so to stick with a Christian God we have to have certain strict rules. We aren't allowed to deliberately use a science that we know full well isn't free will to begin with.. else we only win a fake argument. Christians can come back, and say we cheated.

Yeah, blah blah blah.
All you're doing AGAIN is reiterating the claim and NOT addressing the logic or argument provided.
Thank you for your prolonged non-contribution.

Well, if free will is an illusion, that it was determined you would have that belief and express it at that time, well, going back...all the way back to the Big Expansion. So yes, I think a determinist is saying that any belief they have they had to have and it was determined they would have it - not in any teleological sort of way - well before they were born.

Ah, okay, it was a generalised "you" not me specifically.

I can't see how either free will or determinism can be falsified.

Me neither.

 

[Pineal]

Ah, okay, it was a generalised "you" not me specifically.

No, it wasn't an insult. Though it was a reaction on my part specific to determinists or here a determinist - or whatever non-free will position it is (qm putting tough obstacles in the way of determinism, but not adding free will in in any demonstrated way, with its indeterminacy. Determinists are (also) saying that they have to believe in determinism. This can be deducted from their beliefs. And I think it gets hard to claim one can be objective about something that was determined by conditions well before one is born. It certainly doesn't mean determinists are wrong, however it really ought to undercut the interest in discussing the issues, I think. Not that it does. I mean, we are all, then, just winding down in inevitable roles and outbursts and cannot really be objective about our opinions.

 

[Dywyddyr]

No, it wasn't an insult. Though it was a reaction on my part specific to determinists or here a determinist - or whatever non-free will position it is (qm putting touch obstacles in the way of determinism but not adding free will in in any demonstrated way with indeterminacy. Determinists are (also) saying that they have to believe in determinism. And I think it gets hard to claim one can be objective about something that was determined by conditions well before one is born. It certainly doesn't mean determinists are wrong, however it really ought to undercut the interest in discussing the issues, I think. Not that it does.

Never took it as an insult, but I did think you meant, specifically, me.
Yep a determinist can always claim that whatever they (or anyone else) come up was what they were "meant" to come up with.

 

[Pineal]

Never took it as an insult, but I did think you meant, specifically, me.
Yep a determinist can always claim that whatever they (or anyone else) come up was what they were "meant" to come up with.

So you must be very forgiving people
unless you were meant to be otherwise. double

 

[Dywyddyr]

So you must be very forgiving people

THEY, not me.
I still haven't made my mind up.
(Perhaps I wasn't meant to).

 

[wynn]

Not being worried about a paradox doesn't mean the paradox doesn't exist.

If you're not worried about it, it doesn't matter.

Granted. But why suffer at all?

Experience shows that suffering is optional.

Only an hour?

Altogether, yes.

For the most part, depressed people are too distracted to be aware of their pain and to react to it.

A preprogrammed "ability" that leads to the preprogrammed "change".

What do you see as being the problem with that?

 

[wynn]

Free will is a perspective, an illusion.

What is real, what is not an illusion?

 

[Pineal]

THEY, not me.
I still haven't made my mind up.
(Perhaps I wasn't meant to).

Oh, your mind was made up a long time ago or you are making it up.

 

[Dywyddyr]

If you're not worried about it, it doesn't matter.

If I'm not worried about Obama's fiscal policy does it not matter?

Experience shows that suffering is optional.

Um, if we're preprogrammed then it's not optional.

Altogether, yes.

Not my experience, but...

What do you see as being the problem with that?

It means that "I" am an involuntary passenger. And unable to affect the journey, the destination or the route.

What is real, what is not an illusion?

Don't you go getting metaphysical on me!

 

[wynn]

If I'm not worried about Obama's fiscal policy does it not matter?

At that moment, to you, no.

And it's not like worrying about Obama's fiscal policy can change anything about said fiscal policy.

Um, if we're preprogrammed then it's not optional.

It means that "I" am an involuntary passenger. And unable to affect the journey, the destination or the route.

I think you are still committing a category mistake here.

Not my experience, but...

Then time yourself.

Don't you go getting metaphysical on me!

Answer the question: What is real and what is an illusion?