Proof that the Christian god cannot exist

[Dywyddyr]

they sit within sight of one another and yet they argue here. there is a name for that

Care to offer something?

so you dismiss the time argument because it doesn't suit you?

I haven't dismissed the time argument. It has already been addressed. If the knowledge exists at all...

If I go into the future and look at the lottery numbers and see they're 1, 2, 3, etc (whatever) is it possible that for you here (in my past) will look at those numbers when they do get drawn and they'll be different from what I saw? Pincho has consistently failed to address this.
If I go 100 years into the future and find the most accurate (i.e. actually accurate!) biography of that famous poster NMSquirrel is it possible that biography will turn out to be wrong?

you are not the authority on what is right and wrong..specially when we are discussing concepts that have no proofs..
IOW there is no right and wrong.

Never claimed to be.

 

[Dywyddyr]

You've acknowledged that he made his choice.
So why would he choose something else?

You are consistently (deliberately?) missing the point.
If the choice was known before hand then he cannot choose otherwise: he is predestined to choose what he will choose.

If he made the choice, then he has freewill.
Or are you saying he didn't make the choice?

If he cannot choose otherwise then there was no choice.
If he is predestined to choose A then he has no effective choice.

You are distinguishing us from characters in book by stateing we are like them. So how can we ever be like them?

Which part of

following a pre-written script

did you miss?

And no, I'm not distinguishing us from characters in a book, I'm likening us TO characters in a book. You could, at the very least, learn English.

 

[Pincho Paxton]

If I go into the future and look at the lottery numbers and see they're 1, 2, 3, etc (whatever) is it possible that for you here (in my past) will look at those numbers when they do get drawn and they'll be different from what I saw? Pincho has consistently failed to address this.
.

I answered that didn't I?



I .... If I go into the future
You.... is it possible that for you here (in my past)
Lotto

You (past)....Lotto.....I (future)

 

[Dywyddyr]

I answered that didn't I?

Can the numbers be any different from what I saw?
You skirted that question altogether.

 

[Pincho Paxton]

Can the numbers be any different from what I saw?
You skirted that question altogether.

No they would be the same. In fact you are standing there watching them.

 

[Michael]

You are consistently (deliberately?) missing the point.
If the choice was known before hand then he cannot choose otherwise: he is predestined to choose what he will choose.


If he cannot choose otherwise then there was no choice.
If he is predestined to choose A then he has no effective choice.


Which part of

did you miss?

And no, I'm not distinguishing us from characters in a book, I'm likening us TO characters in a book. You could, at the very least, learn English.

If god knows the future, can It alter Its own actions? If It knows It will do A, can It instead do B?

It seems that an all-knowing god does not have free will either :shrug:


An all-knowing god is such a creepy machine like being IMO. It can't laugh at a joke, as it already knows the punch line. It can't really feel anything (feelings involve changing from one state of consciousness into a new hitherto new and unknown conscious state). It (God) pretty much only exists in a state of all-knowing. There is no Change for It has Divine Knowledge of ALL. Like a Hard-Drive. The Divine Hard-Drive in the Sky.
God-Drive.
And, get this, this Thing, God-Drive, is presumed to have designed other conscious beings (us) to purposelessly lock them in the basement under the house and torture them for eternity..? Like a child molester (It created those too). It's own little dungeon where it knows every little pain and agony each and every one of Its creations feel... forever. As well as the pleasures of Heaven. It's gets off on those too. One wonders why, given God is "Complete", It just did all of this on Divine Whim. A Whimsical Hard-Drive thingy that emotionlessly creates being to torture and bless.

Like I said, CREEE-PEE

 

[Dywyddyr]

No they would be the same.

So in other words your "time loop" makes no difference whatsoever: knowledge of the future is knowledge of the future. However gained.

 

[Pincho Paxton]

So in other words your "time loop" makes no difference whatsoever: knowledge of the future is knowledge of the future. However gained.

Yeah it makes a difference, because the time loop happens in the future, but Cause, and Effect should never lead to Free Will.

Even though the same lotto balls are drawn.. it is the first time that they have ever been drawn. So not a second time. So I see you standing there from the past watching the draw in your future.

 

[Dywyddyr]

Yeah it makes a difference, because the time loop happens in the future

It's irrelevant.
Since I (in the future) know what those numbers were) and you have agreed that they couldn't turn out any different then simply because I KNOW those numbers means that they are forever fixed.

but Cause, and Effect should never lead to Free Will.

Specious again.

Even though the same lotto balls are drawn.. it is the first time that they have ever been drawn. So not a second time. So I see you standing there from the past watching the draw in your future.

Doesn't matter. If I know what the numbers WERE then that means those are the numbers that WILL be drawn for you.
The only way I can know those numbers is if predestination exists. Predestination = no free will.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Dywyddyr,

You are consistently (deliberately?) missing the point.

No. You're missing the point.

If the choice was known before hand then he cannot choose otherwise: he is predestined to choose what he will choose.

He isn't predestined to choose at all, one the choice is made then that event has happened because he made the choice. Knowing that he would make that choice is the same as us knowing that he made the choice after the event. There just known at different times.

If he cannot choose otherwise then there was no choice.

We don't know if he can or cannot choose otherwise, we only know that he made that choice, and God knew that he would make the choice.

Now explain where predestination comes into, and what was it if it wasn't a choice?

If one can make a choice does one a a freewill?

If he is predestined to choose A then he has no effective choice.

But you haven't explained why knowing what CHOICE he made was predetermined, by the act of knowing beforehand. How do work that out?

And no, I'm not distinguishing us from characters in a book, I'm likening us TO characters in a book. You could, at the very least, learn English.

Makes no difference, we're nothing like characters in a book, so the analogy falls down. Try again.


jan.

 

[Pincho Paxton]

It's irrelevant.
Since I (in the future) know what those numbers wer) and you have agreed that they couldn't turn out any different then simply because I KNOW those numbers means that they are forever fixed.


Specious again.


Doesn't matter. If I know what the numbers WERE then that means those are the numbers that WILL be drawn for you.
The only way I can know those numbers is if predestination exists. Predestination = no free will.

You are in my present and you know the lotto numbers will be 1,2,3,4,5,6. But you didn't use predestination you used time travel.

 

[Dywyddyr]

No. You're missing the point.

Really?
I think you're just waffling, reiterating the same tired lack of logic or reasoning because you desperately want to hold on to a belief in both.

He isn't predestined to choose at all, one the choice is made then that event has happened because he made the choice. Knowing that he would make that choice is the same as us knowing that he made the choice after the event. There just known at different times.

If the choice is known before hand then what other "choice" does he have?
If it is known that he WILL pick A then he WILL pick and nothing else. He will not, ever, pick something other than A.

We don't know if he can or cannot choose otherwise, we only know that he made that choice, and God knew that he would make the choice.

If it is known before hand then...

Now explain where predestination comes into, and what was it if it wasn't a choice?

Because he cannot pick anything other than what was predicted. How is that NOT predestination?
There cannot be any other result.

If one can make a choice does one a a freewill?

Er, what's the definition of freewill?

But you haven't explained why knowing what CHOICE he made was predetermined, by the act of knowing beforehand. How do work that out?

How many more times?
If it is infallibly known then that knowledge cannot be wrong. Even if the guy is told beforehand and decides he's going to pick something different he will not, ever, pick anything other than what was predicted.

Makes no difference, we're nothing like characters in a book, so the analogy falls down. Try again.

Er, I just take your word for it? I don't think so.
Got an actual argument?

 

[harvestdoing]

Proof that the Christian god cannot exist.

Cris, sorry but your argument is quite spurious. The Christian message is that God was incarnated as a man who both lived the perfect life and then also became the perfect sacrifice that no other being(personage) could make because Jesus was the only mediator between God and man (both human and divine). As such, God limited Himself to time, space and the constraints of mankind. God has also limited His judgment and withheld it until a time prescribed in the future that only He has knowledge of. The Bible says that God has set the boundaries of man's habitation - in other words, man has freewill within the constraints of those limits. Man is allowed freedom to accept or reject salvation in Christ, he is able to make choices within his life so long as they fit within the over plan and protection of His people. (God works all things together for good to those who love Him and are the called according to His purpose Rom. 8:28).

 

[Dywyddyr]

You are in my present and you know the lotto numbers will be 1,2,3,4,5,6. But you didn't use predestination you used time travel.

It doesn't bloody matter!
The knowledge itself means predestination exists.
If there were no predestination then the numbers could turn out differently from what I saw.
And if they do that means that ANY choice may turn out differently and that omniscience is not possible.

 

[Pincho Paxton]

Wikipedia says the same as I figured, that it isn't Predestination...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination

If God in some sense knows ahead of time what will happen, then events in the universe are effectively predetermined from God's point of view. This is a form of determinism but not predestination since the latter term implies that God has actually determined (rather than simply seen) in advance the destiny of creatures.

 

[Dywyddyr]

Cris, blah blah blah

Repeating the exact same post that has already been refuted isn't clever.
In fact it's trolling.

 

[Dywyddyr]

Wikipedia says the same as I figured, that it isn't Predestination...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination

And the ACTUAL difference is...? What, exactly?
A different word that means...
Oh wait:

Predestination, in theology is the doctrine that all events have been willed by God

Determinism is the general philosophical thesis that states that for everything that happens there are conditions such that, given them, nothing else could happen

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism

In one God has seen it and it's fixed.
In the other god has decided it and it's fixed.
All you're doing is playing with words.

Still no choice. Still no actual difference.

 

[Pincho Paxton]

And the ACTUAL difference is...? What, exactly?
A different word that means...
Oh wait:




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism

In one God has seen it and it's fixed.
In the other god has decided it and it's fixed.
All you're doing is playing with words.

Still no choice. Still no actual difference.

You've changed the word to one which doesn't include seeing the future, and time loops.

Determinism is often taken to mean simply Causal determinism: an idea known in physics as cause-and-effect.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Dwy..

How many more times?
If it is infallibly known then that knowledge cannot be wrong. Even if the guy is told beforehand and decides he's going to pick something different he will not, ever, pick anything other than what was predicted.

What prediction?

If it is infallibly known

Make up your mind is it knowledge, or a guess?

Are saying there is a natural law that calculate pre-knowledge = pe-destination?
Or is this just a possible outcome?
If the former please explain what the law states, or logically how this eqation works.

jan.

 

[Aqueous Id]

Proof that the Christian god cannot exist.

Cris, sorry but your argument is quite spurious.

Cris from 2001? Hey Harv. At first blush I though you were going fundamentalist, but on second read I'm guessing maybe more mellow than that, almost French modernism, just a guess.

Isn't this what Calvin's teachings lead to: the illogic of predestination in the context of free will? I think it's a very old conversation, but one of those that never dies (like this thread?)