Proof of the existence of God

... (1)Without the cause there can be no effect, and (2) the definition defines God as the original cause/creator. ...jan.
Yes, (1) is true.
Yes (2) is your definition, but there are more scientifically supported "original cause/creators" than some mythical being for which no evidence exist.

The most widely believed by scientists to be the true primary cause is that a zero energy and mass state had a "statistical fluctuation" that conserved total energy and mass at zero. I.e. equal amounts of positive and negative energy spontaneously appearing. Much like on a smaller scale, "zillions of times each second" a +0.511Mev and -0.511Mev rest mass electron and positron spring into existence from nothing. (That not only conserved energy, but also net charge of zero.)

The positive energy when its temperature cooled some let quarks form, and then at still lower temperatures, they coalesced, three at a time, to form neutrons and protons. Then later still, stars with planets formed , on which various forms of life evolved, in a still continuing process.

The negative energy part is less well understood, but seems to make the force that is causing the observed acceleration of the separations between the stars (galaxies, actually, as we can't observed very distant stars). This cause is often called dark energy or dark matter and is an active astronomical research area. For reasons not yet well understood, dark matter only interacts with normal matter via gravity.

This is no doubt why both positive and negative matter /mass energy exist. IE unlike the positron and electron that spontaneously appear in a small scale "statistical fluctuation" and usually quickly mutually self destroy with the production of two 511Mev gamma rays, there does seem to be some law of physics keeping the dark matter and normal matter from mutually self destroying each other.

I am not an expert on the above, so may have some slight errors of fact.
The point is that defining a mythical being as the cause of the existence of our universe, is not "necessary."

This was noted long ago. Laplace wrote a huge five volume series on the heavens. I'm sure Napoleon did not have time to read it, but some one who did, mentioned to Napoloeon that "God" is not even mentioned once in those five volumes. Thus when Napoleon and Laplace met some years later, this exchange is said to have occurred:

Napoleon: You have written this huge book on the system of the world without once mentioning the author of the universe.
Laplace: Sire, I had no need of that hypothesis.

Your whole point is based on the ASSUMPTION that only God could make the universe and you then DEFINE god as its creator. That, however, only reflects your ignorance of more scientifically supported causes.

Defining mythical Arkfuncle as the cause of desk top computers getting correct computation results, would be equal proof of Arkfuncle's existence, IFF there were no other explanations more consistent with scientific knowledge.

Only with extreme ignorance of other alternatives can one postulate a mythical agent, like God or Arkfuncle, is the cause of something that is observed.

Why not start smaller as mankind once did in ignorance and postulate that the god Thor caused the lightening; Neptune caused the violent storms at sea which sank ships, etc. IE, give a definition of Thor as the cause of lightening, etc, then note that lightening is observed to exist, thus, by the definition, Thor must "necessarily" exist. QED.
 
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Necessity is defined through the definition.
Without the cause there can be no effect, and the definition defines God as the original cause/creator.
It is necessary by default, whether I believe it to be or not.
Since you can not show that there was a creation event as opposed to an eternal existence, you are limited to a conditional truth, not a necessity.
i.e. IF the universe was created.
To assume creation is unwarranted.
To thus assume God as necessary is unwarranted.
Same as above.
...
Same as above.
Indeed.
You are stuck with a conditional truth, not a necessity.
So what you're saying is, just accept it as a fact that God doesn't exist.
Therefore the notion that God exists has been scientifically defeated with substantial evidence, and carry on from that point?
Isn't that an atheist wet dream?
Whether or not it is is irrelevant to the thought experiment.
We were asked to imagine it.
How turned on or not one may get over such an image is simply not part of the issue.
Please keep to what is relevant.
God is defined as ''the original cause/creator''.
Not the same as that which created the universe.
Sure, and if we can imagine that even our own universe is eternal then it had no creator.
And you would be in the same position - as "the original cause" would not apply to anything that has no creator.
Of course you do, but that's besides the point.
How is my disagreement with you on this matter "besides the point"?
The original cause implies everything that is percievable, not just the creation of this universe.
No, it does not imply everything that is perceivable if what is perceivable includes that which has no creation and is simply eternal.
Without such a cause nothing exists.
So your unwarranted assumption goes.
That is the definition of God, and that is what I use within my imagination to counter the imaginary notion that God doesn't exist as a fact.
The definition does not make God a necessity due to the possibility of eternal existence.
You have not shown God to be necessary, only to be a conditional truth.
Bear in mind facts aren't truth, and can be challenged.
The clear implication in the original thought is that "fact" is to be taken as synonymous with "truth".
But however you wish to interpret "fact", you still appear to be in error through your unwarranted assumption of God's necessity.
If there is no original cause, there is nothing.
So your unwarranted assumption goes.
I think that accounts for necessity, and you know that as well.
If I "knew" that then both of us would be wrong.
I am not assuming anything by adding that into the mix (it is after all, imaginary), which assumes it as a fact that God does not exist. In the imaginary world, anything goes.
If you add necessity into the mix, you are indeed adding something.
How would the fact, God does not exist, factor into this imagination?
The imagination is simply compatible with the fact, and explains how a universe might exist without the need for a creator.
So how do you assess God's non existence as a fact?
So far no one has explained this. Or are we to just accept that it is a fact?
For purposes of imagination it might be enough to simply accept it.
After all, that is what we must also do when asked to accept God's existence as a fact.
The limitation of our imagination, as previously mentioned, is in how the requisites for establishing the factual nature of what we are imagining would impact on the world/universe in which we inhabit.
i.e. what must change in order for the factual nature (either of God's existence or non-existence) to be firmly established other than merely assumed?
I do not know the answer to that.
Do you?
Then explain how an eternal cycle can be imagined, because this is the very evidence that would have rendered God non existent.
No, the evidence does not render God non-existent or not.
If it is a fact that God is non-existent then God is non-existent (fact being taken as synonymous with truth) and the evidence we need to imagine would have to prove that, if indeed such had been requested.
Similarly if it is a fact that God exists then God exists, and the evidence that would prove that would have to be imagined.
Since I can not imagine how God's existence or non-existence can be proven, I can not say how it would affect, if at all, the world in which we live.
The definition implies necessary existence. It is not problem that you refuse to accept it.
I simply refuse to accept that which is not true.
It is not true that the definition implies necessary existence, hence I refuse to accept it.
My input into this discussion is the basic definition of God, which is the subject of the exercise.
Is your argument, simply God doesn't exist because we say so?
No.
I have made no claim as to the existence or otherwise of God.
I find it a pity that that seems to be what you have gleaned from this discussion.
It doesn't prevail well at all.
I can imagine what you imagine, but it amounts to wishful thinking, and wilful ignorance.
If you could imagine what I can you wouldn't be disagreeing at every step.
So it stands to reason that you can't.
From my viewpoint it is you who brings to the table the unwarranted assumption of necessity, and thus existence, even before the process of imagination begins, which explains that inability you seem to have.
I accept that matter and energy are eternal.
Then God (as defined as the original cause) is not necessary.
What do you mean by lost?
In this context I mean that you/I no longer exist once the pattern deteriorates.
 
Isn't that an atheist wet dream?
What makes you think atheists dream about god at all?
The reason anyone here is discussing the subject is because you are insisting god does exist.
Otherwise I find no need to think of a God. Especially a God who needs money.

Actually God is a televangelist's wet dream.

As Carlin said, God made the Universe and everything in it, carefully planned and executed.
But just can't handle money.

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
 
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What makes you think atheists dream about god at all?

I don't.

The reason anyone here is discussing the subject is because you are insisting god does exist.

I'm making no such insistence

Otherwise I find no need to think of a God. Especially a God who needs money.

I also find no need to think of a God, especially one who needs money.

Actually God is a televangelist's wet dream.

As well?

As Carlin said, God made the Universe and everything in it, carefully planned and executed.
But just can't handle money.

You find this amusing?

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."

I quite agree.

jan.
 
What are it's properties?
jan.
The properties of sentience itself?
A 13 billion year hierarchical process of emerging self-awareness and abstract thinking in complex organisms from mere elementary chemical responses in fundamenta elements.
 
Jan Ardena said:
Isn't that an atheist wet dream?
Write4U said:
What makes you think atheists dream about god at all?
Jan Ardena,
I don't.
Then why did you say it?
W4U,
The reason anyone here is discussing the subject is because you are insisting god does exist.
I'm making no such insistence
Don't you call The Original Causality, God?
W4U,
Otherwise I find no need to think of a God. Especially a God who needs money.
Actually God is a televangelist's wet dream.
Are you suggesting that I make money from being an atheist? Promising old people that they can buy their way into heaven?
On the contrary, I believe we can buy our way into hell. You think I could make any money from that?

As to Carlin, IMO, he was one of the great comedic philosophical and political caricaturist of all time. Once you have heard the punchlines, you can start looking at the narrative itself and it is full of true observations about people's behaviors and the degree of self-awareness in relationship to their environment they have.

I am not fond of the crudeness in which sometimes resorts to, but the contents of his messages are profound, IMO.

Give me one example where he was wrong.
 
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The properties of sentience itself?
A 13 billion year hierarchical process of emerging self-awareness and abstract thinking in complex organisms from mere elementary chemical responses in fundamenta elements.

I believe we are the product of a generalized intelligence that manifested a universe and everything in it to be suitable for its self-realization. This self-realization falls into line not with Classical, but Quantum theory (which is superficially Classical).

http://humansarefree.com/2014/08/understanding-5th-dimension.html
 
Since you can not show that there was a creation event as opposed to an eternal existence, you are limited to a conditional truth, not a necessity.

If I am expected to account for using the definition of God, then you should account for eternal existence.

Whether or not it is is irrelevant to the thought experiment.
We were asked to imagine it.
How turned on or not one may get over such an image is simply not part of the issue.
Please keep to what is relevant.

An atheist wet dream is a metaphore.

Sure, and if we can imagine that even our own universe is eternal then it had no creator.
And you would be in the same position - as "the original cause" would not apply to anything that has no creator.

But can you imagine that the universe is eternal?
How could that ever shown to be a fact, let alone the truth, in any world, real or imagined?


An eternal cycle needs no original cause.
Something that has always existed needs no original cause.

You mean something like God.
The the best explanation for the origin of the universe, is the big bang. It came into being.
Is it God, you have a problem with?

Your inability to imagine what others can now seems to be our fault, though.

I do have an inability to visualise the current world, stick a God does not exist label on it, then fool myself into thinking I am imagining a world where it is a fact that God does not exist. Which is nothing more than you're doing.

Then God (as defined as the original cause) is not necessary.

Only from a naturalist point of view.

jan.
 
Then why did you say it?

It was a metaphore.

Don't you call The Original Causality, God?

Sure, but I am a theist. A person who believes in God.
I am not insisting that God exists.

Are you suggesting that I make money from being an atheist?

Are you suggesting that theists make money from being a theist?
Is belief in God, acquired by stating, or making a show of one's belief, rather than actually believing in God?
Or don't you see a disctinction?

As to Carlin, IMO, he was one of the great comedic philosophical and political caricaturist of all time. Once you have heard the punchlines, you can start looking at the narrative itself and it is full of true observations about people's behaviors and the degree of self-awareness in relationship to their environment they have.

I am not fond of the crudeness in which sometimes resorts to, but the contents of his messages are profound, IMO.

Give me one example where he was wrong.

Why do I need to give such an example?

jan.
 
Your whole point is based on the ASSUMPTION that only God could make the universe and you then DEFINE god as its creator. That, however, only reflects your ignorance of more scientifically supported causes.

God is thus defined, whether I define Him or not.

Most people in the world are ignorant of scientifically supported causes of the origins of the universe, even you admitted some level of ignorance in your post. But I am aware of the different theories such as the one you posited, but it doesn't seem to offer any real answers (at present), although it is very scientifically pretty sounding.

Why not start smaller as mankind once did in ignorance and postulate that the god Thor caused the lightening; Neptune caused the violent storms at sea which sank ships, etc. IE, give a definition of Thor as the cause of lightening, etc, then note that lightening is observed to exist, thus, by the definition, Thor must "necessarily" exist. QED.

People always believed that God created/caused the universe (world). You have it the wrong way round.

jan.
 
If I am expected to account for using the definition of God, then you should account for eternal existence.
Eh?
We are using the definition of God as "original cause".
But that definition does not imply there was one, only that IF there was then it can be referred to as God, as defined.
So to repeat: you have not yet shown that there was an original cause.
Since there exists the possibility of alternatives (such as eternal existence), your assumption that God is necessary is unwarranted.
There need be no "accounting" for eternal existence as you demand.
An atheist wet dream is a metaphore.
Which I merely extended through the phrase "turned on by".
But metaphor or not, it is irrelevant.
But can you imagine that the universe is eternal?
Yes, thanks.
How could that ever shown to be a fact, let alone the truth, in any world, real or imagined?
I don't know.
I have explained this already.
And yet you are in the same position with God being the original cause: in the presence of the possibility of an eternal existence, how can one show it as fact that there was an original cause?
It can at best be assumed, which in this case would be an a priori assumption as it is not an assumption made nor implied within the terms of the initial request.

You mean something like God.
The the best explanation for the origin of the universe, is the big bang. It came into being.
We can only say that science suggests that the cycle we are in began at the Big Bang.
We have no way of knowing what came before (even if "before" has any meaning prior to T=0), whether what we take as T=0 is merely the resetting of the next cycle within eternity.
This may be the one and only "cycle" or it may be an infinite cycle, each one beginning at its own T=0.
Is it God, you have a problem with?
As defined within this discussion, no.
It is quite clearly defined as the "original cause".
I do have a problem with your subsequent assertion that God is necessary "by definition" - as this is an unwarranted assertion, as previously explained.
If you wish to add additional properties to the definition of God then we are no longer referring to the same God that you have defined, unless you can show how those additional properties necessarily arise from being "original cause".
And thus I would have issue within the parameters of this discussion.
In the larger scheme, I do have an issue with the label "God" being used without there being an explicit explanation of what God is being defined as, beyond "original cause" - as if we should all have exactly the same understanding of God, and that everyone who uses the term does so with exactly the same meaning and understanding.
Which is clearly not the case, especially as given even the straightforward definition of "original cause" there is dispute between us of whether this means that God is therefore necessary or not.
Logically it does not, yet you say it does.
I do have an inability to visualise the current world, stick a God does not exist label on it, then fool myself into thinking I am imagining a world where it is a fact that God does not exist. Which is nothing more than you're doing.
As exampled before, if you can reach a destination by 2 routes (path A and path B), the end point you are asked to imagine might well be irrespective of which path you took.
So to clarify it further: imagine you took a cruise ship from England to New York... what does the statue of liberty look like ?
Now imagine that you flew to New York... what does the statue of liberty look like?

Your argument so far, regarding imagination, requires the statue of liberty be different depending whether you flew or took a cruise ship.
Yet my point is that the imagination is in the path you took, not the end-point.
When you fly you get a different view than when you take a cruise-ship - while travelling.
But the end point is the same.
Only from a naturalist point of view.
From any logical point of view, in fact.
If you accept, as you are now quoted as doing, "that matter and energy are eternal" then they needed no creator, no original cause.
This is the definition of eternal: "without beginning or end".
If such can exist without a beginning then they need no creator, thus God is not their original cause, and thus not necessary for that thing to exist.
God might still be the original cause of things that have a beginning, but not of eternal things.
So that this is true from a naturalist point of view is indeed correct, but it is also the case from any other view that correctly applies logic to the premises and definitions at hand: if God is not the cause of one thing then God is not necessary for things to exist.
 
Since there exists the possibility of alternatives (such as eternal existence), your assumption that God is necessary is unwarranted.

How is an eternal universe a possibility?

Yes, thanks.

Erm, no you can't.

And yet you are in the same position with God being the original cause: in the presence of the possibility of an eternal existence, how can one show it as fact that there was an original cause?

The positions aren't the same.
The cosmological argument shows that God caused/created the universe.
You have yet to explain how the universe being eternal, could be regarded as a fact, as opposed to simply labeling it so.

It can at best be assumed, which in this case would be an a priori assumption as it is not an assumption made nor implied within the terms of the initial request.

So it's atheist wet dream, nothing more.

We can only say that science suggests that the cycle we are in began at the Big Bang.
We have no way of knowing what came before (even if "before" has any meaning prior to T=0), whether what we take as T=0 is merely the resetting of the next cycle within eternity.
This may be the one and only "cycle" or it may be an infinite cycle, each one beginning at its own T=0.

It matters not. The universe comes into and out of being, whether it occurs once, or occurs eternally. This mean it there must be a cause.

I do have a problem with your subsequent assertion that God is necessary "by definition" - as this is an unwarranted assertion, as previously explained.

Please explain how the original cause, is not necessary?
Like I said, there is no reason to even bring the notion of necessity, to the term original cause.

In the larger scheme, I do have an issue with the label "God" being used without there being an explicit explanation of what God is being defined as, beyond "original cause" - as if we should all have exactly the same understanding of God, and that everyone who uses the term does so with exactly the same meaning and understanding.

What is ''beyond'', original cause?

Which is clearly not the case, especially as given even the straightforward definition of "original cause" there is dispute between us of whether this means that God is therefore necessary or not.
Logically it does not, yet you say it does.

How/why is the original cause (of all cause and effect), not logically necessary?

As exampled before, if you can reach a destination by 2 routes (path A and path B), the end point you are asked to imagine might well be irrespective of which path you took.
So to clarify it further: imagine you took a cruise ship from England to New York... what does the statue of liberty look like ?
Now imagine that you flew to New York... what does the statue of liberty look like?

Your argument so far, regarding imagination, requires the statue of liberty be different depending whether you flew or took a cruise ship.
Yet my point is that the imagination is in the path you took, not the end-point.
When you fly you get a different view than when you take a cruise-ship - while travelling.
But the end point is the same.

We're talking about two opposing ideologies, not fixed statues. I'm simply stating that you, or anyone, is incapable of imagining a world where it is a fact (science) that God does not exist, or, an eternal universe. So the exercise is doomed before it begins, or it is, as I said earlier, and an atheist wet dream.

If you accept, as you are now quoted as doing, "that matter and energy are eternal" then they needed no creator, no original cause.
This is the definition of eternal: "without beginning or end".
If such can exist without a beginning then they need no creator, thus God is not their original cause, and thus not necessary for that thing to exist.

I didn't say God was their original cause.
I'm sure I said something to the tune of everything that is perceived.

God might still be the original cause of things that have a beginning, but not of eternal things.

So how is it that you conclude that the universe is, or even could be eternal?

So that this is true from a naturalist point of view is indeed correct, but it is also the case from any other view that correctly applies logic to the premises and definitions at hand: if God is not the cause of one thing then God is not necessary for things to exist.

That makes no sense in terms of matter and energy. This universe is made of matter and energy. Is it not?
So if God causes them to act under His Will, how is God not necessary?

jan.
 
How is an eternal universe a possibility?
As possible as anything else that might be eternal.
I am not a cosmologist so can't even explain how a non-eternal universe is possible.
Or how God might be possible.
I still entertain the possibility.
Erm, no you can't.
So now you're going to tell me what I am and am not capable of?
Is that how you intend things to go?
I will tell you again: I am capable of imagining that the universe is eternal.
It doesn't take much: just imagine that the universe is on a Bang-Crunch cycle would be one way.
The positions aren't the same.
The cosmological argument shows that God caused/created the universe.
No it doesn't.
It only does if you assume that the universe has a beginning, as that is one of the premises it begins with.
Science, as mentioned, can only go back as far as T=0, and can say nothing about whether that T=0 was the first T=0 or just one of a cycle.
You have yet to explain how the universe being eternal, could be regarded as a fact, as opposed to simply labeling it so.
I have already said: I don't know how it could be regarded as fact.
But I don't need to know how it could be regarded as a fact in order to be able to imagine it being eternal.
So it's atheist wet dream, nothing more.
Again, whether or not you think it is is irrelevant.
It matters not. The universe comes into and out of being, whether it occurs once, or occurs eternally. This mean it there must be a cause.
A cause, but not an original cause.
If there is an eternal cycle then the collapse of one cycle is the cause of the next cycle.
No beginning.
No end.
Hence eternal.
Hence no "original cause".
Please explain how the original cause, is not necessary?
If something is eternal then it has no "original cause" - as it was not created/caused nor has an end.
How much more unnecessary do you wish "original cause" to be?
It (the original cause) is only a necessity for those things that have an original cause.
I.e. conditional, as previously mentioned.
Like I said, there is no reason to even bring the notion of necessity, to the term original cause.
There is if you wish to argue that the definition of God as "original cause" implies existence:
You: "Are you saying that because I have used the definition, which obviously implies existence, ..."
Me: "The definition does not imply existence, since God as defined has not been shown to be necessary."
You then went on to say: "God has to be necessary for the exercise, otherwise there is no point in imagining His non existence as a fact."

Thus it is you who requires God to be necessary for your position to hold, and are thus bringing the requirement to the table.
But God has not been shown to be necessary.
What is ''beyond'', original cause?
There are many definitions of God that go beyond "original cause": omniscient, omnipotent, benevolent, the provider of moral authority etc.
How/why is the original cause (of all cause and effect), not logically necessary?
Your addition of "of all cause and effect" is unwarranted as has not been shown to be the case.
You are thus begging the question.

If there is anything eternal then it does not have an original cause, and thus "original cause" is not a necessity for that thing's existence.
We're talking about two opposing ideologies, not fixed statues.
The ideologies are the route taken, not the end result.
It's not that difficult an analogy.
I'm simply stating that you, or anyone, is incapable of imagining a world where it is a fact (science) that God does not exist, or, an eternal universe. So the exercise is doomed before it begins, or it is, as I said earlier, and an atheist wet dream.
And your fallacy here is insisting on the imagination coming up with explanations for everything.
One merely needs to imagine it in any capacity, at any level, even at the level of a black-box - i.e. where the internal workings / explanations are not known but the conclusions being output are understood and argued.
Your requirement thus seems nothing but a fallacy of fake precision - i.e. you are requiring that which is simply not necessary for the demonstration of the argument.
I didn't say God was their original cause.
I'm sure I said something to the tune of everything that is perceived.
Matter and energy are not perceived?
So how is it that you conclude that the universe is, or even could be eternal?
I don't conclude that it is, but it could be.
There are numerous cosmological models that theorise a cycle.
Wikipedia has a summary on the Cyclic model that you might wish to read.
Needless to say, we can not be sure that we either are or are not within such a cycle.
That makes no sense in terms of matter and energy. This universe is made of matter and energy. Is it not?
So if God causes them to act under His Will, how is God not necessary?
If the matter and energy is, as you have accepted, eternal, then it needs no original cause.
For the purpose of this discussion, God is defined as "original cause" and nothing else (unless the subsequent properties necessarily follow that single property).
You are now introducing the notion that whatever is caused by God can be caused to "act under His Will".
This seems to be adding to the definition.
Causation does not necessitate acting under a will.
I can cause myself to pour a glass of water into a sink, but I can not cause it to fall upward by my Will.
Thus the effect is demonstrably not necessarily acting under the will of the causer.
 
Jan Ardena said:
I would argue that it is one of the essential properties, if not the essential.
jan.
Then you would ignore all the latest findings from quantum physics.
I am not quite sure what you are saying. I understand that phrase to mean that there can be an Uncaused Result, which IMO, is different than an Uncaused or Self-Caused Causality

What are the latest findings in QP. How can a Result occur without a Causality?

note; I am not talking about God as the ultimate Causality, but just any anomaly that produces a result, which then may be causal to another result, etc. (butterfly effect)
 
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I am not quite sure what you are saying. I understand that phrase to mean that there can be an Uncaused Result, which IMO, is different than an Uncaused or Self-Caused Causality

What are the latest findings in QP. How can a Result occur without a Causality?

note; I am not talking about God as the ultimate Causality, but just any anomaly that produces a result, which then may be causal to another result, etc. (butterfly effect)
It's my understanding that classical causality doesn't apply on a quantum level. Which was the size of the early universe at one point.
 
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