Probability of God

[TruthSeeker]

heflores,

He is not only within us, but we are also within Him. It is like my pastor said this weekend... thta if you put a bucket in the water there is water in the bucket and at the same time all around it.

 

[heflores]

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
Cris,


Not really... You didn't even discussed my post at all...:bugeye:
What? You can't argue against what I said...?

That's life Truthseeker, noone will give you credit when you give them the answer, but they will not hesitate a bit to stop you from reaching the answer.....

 

[heflores]

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
heflores,

He is not only within us, but we are also within Him. It is like my pastor said this weekend... thta if you put a bucket in the water there is water in the bucket and at the same time all around it.

Truth seeker, your pastor must be so busy spraying people with water and baptizing them into god that he doesn't know what to do with the empty buckets and starting to invent shit.....At least that's better than the dark ages, when the priests were in the business of selling literally heaven passes....What should I say, they're advanced priests now using new techniques to do the same dirty work they did before.

We can't be mixed with god the way you're talking, or we will be little gods. God is perfect, we are yet to find out when he judges us as his creation. So are you saying if god is in us that if we do bad god will go to hell???:bugeye:

 

[heflores]

Live4you:

What kind of a sick mind would attribute the qualities of water to god or the qualities of bucket to god....

So now you can't define god, but you're so confidant to say god is water and steam and ice. Do you know how many people if heard such an anlogy would actually start thinking it is true and start looking at the water differently....These analogies creates doctrines, and god is universal.

Another area that bedazzel me is that you don't have your orignial scripture of your bible in it's orignial language and you dare say that the copy you have at home is the actual word of god.

For a start, you must learn the language of Jesus to understand what Jesus was saying before you put words in his mouth....oh I forgot...that language is no longer spoken, so god didn't protect the language that Jesus spoke, what the hell could that mean...He doesn't want us to hear it I guess....and you dare claim you are reading the bible and saved...You are as saved my friend as King James, because he decided what goes in or not in your bible.

At least pull an intelligent discussion and try to proof that the creator is the maintainer of the universe and order instead of associating unfounded nonesese to him.

Don't you think god and Jesus deserve a little bit more justice from you than compairing them to water and steam and ice. How do you think they'll deal with you justly if you are not just in your prespective on them....

No wonder there are so many Atheists???

 

[Cris]

truthseeker,

Not really... You didn't even discussed my post at all...
What? You can't argue against what I said...?

Actually I was responding to hef when he quoted your assertion. Your post was pages ago and I hadn't been back that far. However -

An infinite universe needs infinite space-time. Since space-time is limited , this option is not valid. If time was infinite, there would be infinite time in the past and the present would never arrive. Since the present is here, then time must be finite. Space naturally follows it.

Looks like total gibberish.

What supports your assertion that space-time is limited?

Why does infinite past time prevent infinite future time?

Asserting that the present would not arrive is a non sequitur to there being infinite past time.

Asserting that time must be finite is a non sequitur to the present being here.

And why would space naturally follow time?

I can conceive of a finite space existing for an infinite time, and I can conceive of infinite space existing for a finite time, as well as infinite space for an infinite time. Why would any of these conceptions be inherently invalid?

 

[TruthSeeker]

heflores,

We can't be mixed with god the way you're talking, or we will be little gods. God is perfect, we are yet to find out when he judges us as his creation. So are you saying if god is in us that if we do bad god will go to hell???

We ARE like Him! He is within us, so His power flows through us. God has no control over us. However, He can act through us, because He is in us (Christians). But He is NOT within atheists.

 

[Cris]

live4him,

Many of your posts have assumed that the stories of Jesus are historically accurate and actually occurred, and in fact this assumption is vital to virtually all your assertions, yet you have not established these claims as being true, hence my statements that all you have are unsupported assertions. The miracle stories also.

My confidence that you have no historical evidence for your claims rest on the extensive research encompassed in these three books -

1. The Lost Gospel, The Book of Q and Christian Origins, by Burton L Mack.
2. The Jesus Puzzle, by Earl Doherty.
3. The Christ Conspiracy (The Greatest Story Ever Sold), by Acharya S.

All three highlight the extensive mythology that is the basis of Christianity and the last two claim 100% mythology with the conclusion that Jesus the man is highly unlikely to have ever existed.

There is too much evidence and analysis here for me to summarize these works in just a few sentences, but I offer them here as my reference material as refutation of your unsupported claims for the historical accuracy of Christianity.

 

[heflores]

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
heflores,


We ARE like Him! He is within us, so His power flows through us. God has no control over us. However, He can act through us, because He is in us (Christians). But He is NOT within atheists.

And what if I tell you that I believe in god with every bone in my body, yet I don't believe that Jesus is god and I don't believe that god dwells in me......Would you still make an equivalently ignorant statement like the one you did....What the hell is so bad about Atheist at least they are admitting they don't know, and from that prespective there is no improvement...on the other hand, you're acting as the incompetent fool that knows it all.

So Christians only are so special that they have a special deal with god and control of god mercy...Noone else is allowed....Buddists, muslims, Hidus, Atheists....they must be all going to hell... I guess the church gets to decide who is saved and who is not...Or are you the official saver....Because if you say the church or you are not the decision maker in the issue of saving, then you have no business making the stupid statement that christians are only saved.....because you don't own the religion. The reality though is that you own the religion, and you get to decide who is good and who is bad, the church gave you that power and brainwashed you to think so....so this is one religion I want no part of, one that teaches people that they are god or sons and daughters of god...I prefer my humble prespective of either admitting no knowledge or saying that I'm a servant at the mercy of god who doesn't know how god feels about me......

 

[heflores]

Originally posted by heflores
Atheist at least they are admitting they don't know, and from that prespective there is no improvement...on the other hand, you're acting as the incompetent fool that knows it all.

I mispelled, I meant only improvement....

 

[heflores]

What happened Live4him, did I put too much water in your god's steam......Did you evaporate or something????

Come back I'm not done.

Aren't you the one that said so confidentaly:

"I doubt it. When I came to the forum, I came expecting attacks. If my beliefs are not valid, I want to know. However, I've defended them for a number of years now. And during these years, I've been forced to reconsider the beliefs that I've had, only to draw closer to a literal interpretation of scripture. "

 

[Jenyar]

heflores - I would like to know what you are defending or attacking, you seem to be very critical of everybody else but have very few grounded opinions of your own. You say you believe in God. What does God say about your sins? How can you know God and how can you speak to Him - how will He hear you or know you, if He is not within you? What prevents God from being with you?

And comparing God to his creation is a perfectly valid way of trying to understand God's nature and characteristics. It's called metaphor and comparison - and I hope you don't think their use is limited to Christians. Jesus described himself as living water by which God washes away our sins.
John 7:38
Whoever believes in me, as [Or / If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me. / And let him drink, 38 who believes in me. / As] the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him."

Hebrews 10:22
let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water.

Revelation 7:17
For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; he will lead them to springs of living water. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."

 

[EvilPoet]

Thought this might be of interest ...

Complexity, Probability, and God

 

[heflores]

Originally posted by Jenyar
heflores - I would like to know what you are defending or attacking, you seem to be very critical of everybody else but have very few grounded opinions of your own. You say you believe in God. What does God say about your sins? How can you know God and how can you speak to Him - how will He hear you or know you, if He is not within you? What prevents God from being with you?

Hi Jenyar, and you think I'm the dumb idiot that will define myself to you so you may get a chance to play god on me like everyone else is doing???

Jenyar, too many people playing god, why don't you stop adding more fuel to their fire

 

[Raithere]

Originally posted by Live4Him
In fact, in a collapsing Universe entropy would actually reverse on a global scale.

This would be true ONLY if you believed that ALL the energy would collapse back into the singularity. And there is no scientific foundation for this belief. Thus, we are back to the initial premise given: There is no scientific explanation for the origins of the universe.

In this model there is nothing "outside" of the Universe.
Since we can detect nothing beyond the Universe this is a perfectly logical premise.
Where do you propose the energy goes to? Does it just disappear? If so, can you demonstrate the disappearance of energy?

Of course, I'm still waiting for a response to the other naturalistic explanations.

~Raithere

 

[heflores]

Originally posted by Jenyar
heflores - I would like to know what you are defending or attacking, you seem to be very critical of everybody else but have very few grounded opinions of your own. You say you believe in God. What does God say about your sins? How can you know God and how can you speak to Him - how will He hear you or know you, if He is not within you? What prevents God from being with you?

Jenyar,

You have asked me a personal question, so I'll apply but I will not claim that I'm right, my viewes are ever changing, that is one of the lessons that I have learned quickly on Sciforum.

You have asked an interesting question, what prevents god from being with me?

Here's my PERSONAL opinion, and it might be wrong. My prespective of god is quite different than me. I view my creator as an unknown entity to me, somewhat much much higher than me in all aspects...Afterall, he's my creator so he must be totally above my logic, interpretations, flesh, priest, mother, father, you, Cris, Cross, ect. Since I very strongly believe that my creator is so higher than I'm I refuse relentessly with the last breath of my body...to attribute anything to him or to confine his glory within my human mind that's full of shit and bugs.....

If I allow myself to believe that he's within me, then I have contaminated his glory with my stupidity and often lack of logic. He must remain pure, very pure, and the only way he may stay pure in my mind is for me to submit to the idea that the creator knows all, humans do not know shit...In a way, I'm trying to submit to my creator in the most powerfull way possible, not other's way.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Cris,

Looks like total gibberish.

You have no better comment to make, do you...?

What supports your assertion that space-time is limited?

The universe is limited and infinite time in the past is impossible.

Why does infinite past time prevent infinite future time?

Infinite time in the past is an endless past. When you say infinite time in the future, there will never be an end. In the same way, if you are in the "present" and this present is in infinite time in the past, than the present as we know it would never arrive. Try to visualize it:
+------------------------------------>
present........................infinite future (no end)

<--------------------------------------------------+
infinite past (no beginning).............."present" (never arriving...)

If you had an endless time in the past, how much time would take to arrive in the present? Infinite time. So it would NEVER arrive. Since we are in the present, time must be finite and so the universe.

And why would space naturally follow time?

Space and time are one single thing. We experience them as two different things because that's how our brains do the job. If you want to walk to whatever place, you will take some time. If you stay in the same place, this also takes time. So, the space is always influenced by time.

I can conceive of a finite space existing for an infinite time, and I can conceive of infinite space existing for a finite time, as well as infinite space for an infinite time. Why would any of these conceptions be inherently invalid?

Try studing Einstein's theories... Maybe you will grasp those things with him...

 

[TruthSeeker]

heflores,

And what if I tell you that I believe in god with every bone in my body, yet I don't believe that Jesus is god and I don't believe that god dwells in me......Would you still make an equivalently ignorant statement like the one you did....What the hell is so bad about Atheist at least they are admitting they don't know, and from that prespective there is no improvement...on the other hand, you're acting as the incompetent fool that knows it all.

You are a Christian, therefore God is within you. That's all. I understand you don't understand, but at least don't call me imcompetent because you cannot understand...

So Christians only are so special that they have a special deal with god and control of god mercy...Noone else is allowed....Buddists, muslims, Hidus, Atheists....they must be all going to hell... I guess the church gets to decide who is saved and who is not...Or are you the official saver....Because if you say the church or you are not the decision maker in the issue of saving, then you have no business making the stupid statement that christians are only saved.....because you don't own the religion. The reality though is that you own the religion, and you get to decide who is good and who is bad, the church gave you that power and brainwashed you to think so....so this is one religion I want no part of, one that teaches people that they are god or sons and daughters of god...I prefer my humble prespective of either admitting no knowledge or saying that I'm a servant at the mercy of god who doesn't know how god feels about me......

... Did you mean to write something that makes sense? Cause I honestly had quite a hard time to understand all that.

But anyways... let's see what I can understand. The church doesn't decide who she will save, the church goes and tries to bring people closer to God, that's all. Besides, many times we spend time with each other in fellowship. So the church's job is not only to bring people to God but also to maintain itself and help people around. There are no special saver or whatever like that. We are all people who want to bring others closer to God so that they might find true happiness in non-material things, things that are not from this world. All the things of this world will pass away, but God will always be there. We find God within ourselves, and He is a continuous and everlasting source for everyone. Besides, every Christian is taugh that we cannot do nothing without God, that we don't even exist without Him. And we also say that our Love and compassion is His, not ours. So how can we be the ones that are arrogant, and you that think yourself so humble with you own self-righteousness be the humble one??

 

[Jenyar]

Heflores - it seems we are picking on you

I respect your personal beliefs, it is not my intention to confuse or 'convert' you. But since you believe in God, there has to be certain facts (thank you, atheists... I know...) that we can agree on, although we both admit that we have theories and beliefs that are being adjusted all the time. God does not change with our understanding, do you agree? God stays the same, whatever we think we know about Him.

Since I didn't create you, and have no influence over you other than what you permit, I cannot even begin to assume to play god over you, judge or condemn you. And I don't want to either.

Now that we got that straight. To the point:

Here's my PERSONAL opinion, and it might be wrong. My prespective of god is quite different than me. I view my creator as an unknown entity to me, somewhat much much higher than me in all aspects...Afterall, he's my creator so he must be totally above my logic, interpretations, flesh, priest, mother, father, you, Cris, Cross, ect. Since I very strongly believe that my creator is so higher than I'm I refuse relentessly with the last breath of my body...to attribute anything to him or to confine his glory within my human mind that's full of shit and bugs.....

This 'unknown entity' is what Paul preaches to the people of Epheses. God will always be more than us, and we will always seek Him. Everything we say about God are human terms and words for something that has far greater meaning than we can hope to describe.

If I allow myself to believe that he's within me, then I have contaminated his glory with my stupidity and often lack of logic. He must remain pure, very pure, and the only way he may stay pure in my mind is for me to submit to the idea that the creator knows all, humans do not know shit...In a way, I'm trying to submit to my creator in the most powerfull way possible, not other's way. [/quote]

God has created you, therefore He must know that you exist. The worst you can do is deny this. If God created you in the first place, and you are always known to Him - aren't you always walking on holy ground? 'Here' is everywhere you can reach. For God, 'here' is therefore everywhere, because He can reach everywhere. You are always in His presence.

Do you think God depends on your distance, to be holy? You are right: for us to be in God's presence, we must be holy - and we cannot be, we can never never be pure enough. The key is love. If God has to keep His distance, how can we love Him, and what does it help He says He love us but cannot reach us? If this cannot happen, how are we to come into His presence even after death? Death is the result of sin, not the clearing of sin.

This is where God sent His son as a sacrifice. As Paul said:
Acts 17:23
For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. Now what you worship as something unknown I am going to proclaim to you.

God can show His love by making it possible for us to know Him. I won't go any further right now. Please tell me what your thought and objections are up until this point.

 

[Cris]

Jenyar,

A nice gesture but I suspect Heflores has left us if his last posts are to be believed.

I wonder though, that since he declared himself to be a Moslem, that perhaps he had difficulty relating to our predominantly Christian perspectives. I suspect the biblical quotes directed at him and the assertion that the Son of God was here to save him didn't do anything for him.

I've also noted from comments made by other Moslems, that their way of thinking has some fundamental differences to traditional Western Christians. I don't think many here appreciated or noticed those differences.

Difficult. Just a thought.

 

[heflores]

Originally posted by Cris
Jenyar,

A nice gesture but I suspect Heflores has left us if his last posts are to be believed.

Difficult. Just a thought.

Cris, I can't leave, you know I'm trapped, and it's difficult, I can't leave until all my issues are resolved, so I take it back, I won't leave, I'll just change my name to THATJERK, LYINGBASTARD, BITCHALLYWANT, or whatever..pick a name for me please.

Now, I'm a woman, that's another unresolved issue that I have, so please I implore you to not forgot that and adress me with the he again....I'll kick any man's butt any time of the day.

I think I have started understanding the Western prespective, it's a climate thing... When I fist came to US I thought...it's too cold....people have all these land to live on....westerns appeared to be so damn cold to me at first...They never talked to me or asked me when I looked like the damn fool and asked the simple questions.....They used my simple questions to imply that I'm ignorent....Where I'm from...that's an illigal move....a no no in dealing with others...it means you are evil...but I am not back home stacked in my chicken coop.......I'm not used to these moves...I'm used to take words seriously....I come from this place where like 100 million people live in one square mile, we don't live in houses, they stack us on top of each other and side by side...so whether I like it or not, I have to deal with people...the good the bad the ugly and the sexy...I have to be very attentive to every word, and the motive is not to find myself, but to protect myself....damn too many arrows coming from all over the place... I'll be taken advantage of if I'm not super carefull...So I became very good at fending arrows....putting bandage on the root problem...so when I came here and started displaying my what I thought to be STATE OF THE ART skills in dealing with others based on what I learned in the eastern cultures, I was just ignored by the westerns....I hate to be ignored...it makes me angry....it makes me kindda wanna hurt them back for hurting me by ignoring me......What the hell am I going to do with all those arrows that I need back home to deal with everyone...then after spinning for a while and learning from the obvious and not by subtelty....I started questioning.....what am I so angry about....I didn't do this, I didn't start this, but I forget that I'm not doing anything to stop it either...so I'm actually becoming a major player in a visious cycle of promoting anger and hate.....

Now...that stupid story is a unique one and is of a muslim woman that was raised in a rich western like arabic environment....I was sent to English schools, sent to US, ect.....So Jenyar, consider the gap to bridged when you're talking to a Bin Laden...Someone asked an Atheist whether they like Bin Laden or not...because that was the extreme case that this person could present...I guess it didn't bother the Atheist....I don't even want to know what bothers an Atheist...Actually I know....but here I go judging again...not from the western prespective...of actually judging in a court....but from the eastern prespective....of telling you, I'll judge you so I may defend myself from you later...

Anyways, I want to answer Jenyar, because I kindda feel responsible, I hate to start crap and not finish it, it's my eastern nature, disaster can happen if people don't know what is behind the crap in my head, that's my western/eastern mix talking.