Predation..

[Jan Ardena]

Most certainly. All those espousing ID, (Intelligent design) and those that have answered this post, (on this forum and others), by saying "god designed predation because..", which seems to be the majority of people that bothered.

Furthermore,

"..the portion of the universe which we can comprehend seems designed for a purpose, despite our personal opinion." - Jan Ardena (why do you value truth more than hope..)

"Those personal opinions of "poor design" are irrelivant, as they make no difference to the fact that things do look designed" - Jan Ardena (why do you value truth more than hope..)

I do believe that predation would be included in "things" and most certainly seems to be a "portion of our universe which we can comprehend". Perhaps not.



So it is equal in eternal status alongside god? Something separate from god existed alongside him for eternity?



Omnipotence and the lack of needs - unless of course the theist argues that their version of a god isn't omnipotent and/or does have needs.

Those are examples of universal design, not the design of nature.
If you believe that the universe and nature are one and the same, then I understand your point, but I don't agree with it.

Matter cannot be created or destroyed, it merely changes, that is its "nature".

The arguments for "God cannot be omnipotent", for whatever reason, is silly, as it does not take into account God himself.
Saying that, I still don't understand why you have posed limitations on what theists can and cannot argue about.

jan.

 

[lightgigantic]

Snakelord

I see. So basically it doesn't just boil down to ones desire to be separate from god but also down to ones perfected desire to be with god but the unfortunate fact that they have to remain here as much a victim as anyone else, because gaining an adequate desire to be with gods is something nobody can manage by themselves?

I'm not sure if you grabbed the import of ...

You might want to remember that a person on the platform you suggest can clearly see the distinctions between the activities of the body and the activities of the soul.

They have absolutely no impediments for acting on the spiritual platform (ie reciprocating with god, directly)

It's worth mentioning also that this doesn't really answer the question. I originally asked why god designed and implemented predation. You said because of ones desire to be separate from god. Let me please just clarify. Are you saying that 'god designed predation because certain individuals didn't want to be with him'?

predation is kind of the default position of not being socialized around god ... our relationship with god acts as a prototype for all our other sorts of relationship ---(just to unpack that, the suggestion is that we left the direct association of god due to issues of envy, etc, so when we come to this world, the default position is to work along the lines of "Oh what a powerful position, I wish I could occupy it", "Oh what a beautiful body, I wish I could have it" etc etc which delivers one into predation as we commonly experience it, on both a gross and subtle platform .... in short, when you group or community of envious entities get together, the net result is predation amongst themselves, the swapping of roles between the exploited and the exploiter - this world is simply geared up to give facility to this proclivity)

 

[SnakeLord]

Those are examples of universal design, not the design of nature.
If you believe that the universe and nature are one and the same, then I understand your point, but I don't agree with it.

ID, being but "creationism in a cheap tuxedo", goes a lot deeper than you might be inclined to think. It goes all the way down to eyeballs, wings and blood clotting - it would be intellectually dishonest at best to stop short when it comes to sharp teeth, claws, toxins, and every other aspect of life that the IDist would have no choice but to consider equally fine tuned and designed. Come now, a snake can't just magically develop a poison that doesn't harm itself but always kills its prey. No sir.

Take the spider wasp as a good example. It comes equipped with the ability to knock out, (but not kill), a spider. While knocked out the wasp drags it to a secure place and lays its eggs inside the spider, (something it couldn't do if it couldn't knock out the spider). And interestingly the insides of the spider provide just what the spider wasp larvae need to survive on.

I consider it extremely dishonest and bad mannered to go about declaring design and stopping just at the moment the 'bad' stuff turns up - at which stage you either declare that as just *poofing* itself into existence or that it has always existed, (without much in the way of clairification).

Matter cannot be created or destroyed, it merely changes, that is its "nature".

Sorry, can you put this in a more detailed way? (god therefore doesn't "create" but just re-shapes that which already exists? etc etc) Just as detailed as you can get it. Thanks in advance.

The arguments for "God cannot be omnipotent", for whatever reason, is silly, as it does not take into account God himself.

It only takes a god, (with declared attributes), into account. If a god is omnipotent and has no needs then nothing is necessary.

-----

I'm not sure if you grabbed the import of ...

Apparently not and I still don't. You stated that it boils down to desire to be separate from god, but if predation occurs to those that don't desire to be separate from god, (as it does), then it can't boil down to a desire to be separate from god. It's really straightforward.

predation is kind of the default position of not being socialized around god

Who made it the default position?

so when we come to this world

Who created this world with its default positions?

this world is simply geared up

Who created it geared up this way?

 

[lightgigantic]

Snakelord

I'm not sure if you grabbed the import of ...
”
Apparently not and I still don't. You stated that it boils down to desire to be separate from god, but if predation occurs to those that don't desire to be separate from god, (as it does), then it can't boil down to a desire to be separate from god. It's really straightforward.

maybe you can clarify in exactly what way predation curtails someone on the spiritual platform

“
predation is kind of the default position of not being socialized around god
”
Who made it the default position?

“
so when we come to this world
”
Who created this world with its default positions?

“
this world is simply geared up
”
Who created it geared up this way?

god provides a range of environments/states of being - we gravitate to those one's we have the proclivity for.

Kind of like suppose there is a bowl of stool, a bowl of dry bamboo and a bowl of vegetable soup. If these were placed before a hog, a human and a termite. Suppose they were hungry. What do you think would be the default position of such a scenario?

 

[Orleander]

You know, I asked this same question once. Why didn't God just make a universe where there was no need for food. Or even make this one but we get our energy from the sun-light. .....

Maybe God did but it was boring, so he made this one. A lap dog is nice, but its more exciting to have a bunch of fighting pit bulls.

When you live forever I would think stirring the pot every once in a while by tossing in a zealot has to make it more exciting.

 

[SnakeLord]

maybe you can clarify in exactly what way predation curtails someone on the spiritual platform

Maybe you can clarify how saying "it boils down to a desire to be separate from god" includes those that don't have a desire to be separate from god. If it includes those that don't have a desire to be separate from god then it can't boil down to a desire to be separate from god - but something else. Whenever you're ready.

god provides a range of environments/states of being

So god created predation.

Now, my question: Why?

 

[lightgigantic]

Maybe you can clarify how saying "it boils down to a desire to be separate from god" includes those that don't have a desire to be separate from god. If it includes those that don't have a desire to be separate from god then it can't boil down to a desire to be separate from god - but something else. Whenever you're ready.

I'm not aware how predation does hamper those who don't have a desire to be separate from god ... so whenever you're ready .... :shrug:

So god created predation.

Now, my question: Why?

as mentioned earlier, .... in short, when you group a community of envious entities together, the net result is predation amongst themselves, the swapping of roles between the exploited and the exploiter - this world is simply geared up to give facility to this proclivity .... (as opposed to this world cultivating the proclivity ..... kind of like its obvious that the construction of jails doesn't cultivate the criminal propensity, even though they are commonly full of criminals)

 

[swarm]

Time to kill something.

 

[Adstar]

Adstar

1. Am I to understand that when you say "sabotaged" you mean something other than god designed and created predation or that predation just *poofed* itself into existence?

2. 'Evil' must have existed before the obtaining of knowledge of it. Whom created 'evil'?

I guess it first happened when satan became proud and sought to be raised to be the equal of God. I guess evil is like Cold, Cold is nothing in itself, all it is, is a lack of heat. You don't need a designer to design Cold all you need is matter to be removed from a source of Heat, sure enough over time heat dissipates and cold develops on its own. So is evil the turning away towards something other than Good.

When you realise something is broken or, to use your words, "twisted" is there a valid reason you can think of to leave it broken for millennia upon millennia, (and we need to take into account your christian belief that 1 day to us is 1000 years to this god), if you have the ability and desire to fix it?

You miss out on the entirety of the verse that reveals time differential between God and the universe:

2 Peter 3:
8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

What this is revealing is that Gods time is not related to us in any measurable way because to God 1 day is as thousand years and also 1000 years is as day to Him. He is outside time. And also. Each and every individual only has to experience the current state of Universal existence for 1 lifetime.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Jan Ardena]

SnakeLord,

It goes all the way down to eyeballs, wings and blood clotting - it would be intellectually dishonest at best to stop short when it comes to sharp teeth, claws, toxins, and every other aspect of life that the IDist would have no choice but to consider equally fine tuned and designed. Come now, a snake can't just magically develop a poison that doesn't harm itself but always kills its prey. No sir.

We believe that bodies are designed, that was never under dispute, and due to material nature, they act in certain ways, which include predation.
Begining, and end, are part of nature, you seem to think that it is evil, when in fact it is natural.

Take the spider wasp as a good example. It comes equipped with the ability to knock out, (but not kill), a spider. While knocked out the wasp drags it to a secure place and lays its eggs inside the spider, (something it couldn't do if it couldn't knock out the spider). And interestingly the insides of the spider provide just what the spider wasp larvae need to survive on.

I consider it extremely dishonest and bad mannered to go about declaring design and stopping just at the moment the 'bad' stuff turns up - at which stage you either declare that as just *poofing* itself into existence or that it has always existed, (without much in the way of clairification).


Why is it bad stuff?
And where did I say nature just poofs into existence?

Sorry, can you put this in a more detailed way? (god therefore doesn't "create" but just re-shapes that which already exists? etc etc) Just as detailed as you can get it. Thanks in advance.

I suggest you read up on the law of conservation.
Our bodies are created (come into being) through nature. A good example of this is in the bible where God created Adam. He created the man out of nature, then breathed life into his nostril [spirit].

It only takes a god, (with declared attributes), into account. If a god is omnipotent and has no needs then nothing is necessary.

I didn't say God has needs, and therefore requires necessity.
Living beings have needs due to their association with material nature.

jan.