Predation..

[Adstar]

I actually thought I would just ask for theists opinions on why their god would design a system that works on predation. That is, why their god would create a system where in order to survive, organisms need to kill other organisms.

I took this picture a couple of days ago:

You know, we don't tend to notice it much. It's not like we're walking down the street too often and end up seeing one animal come along and rip another to shreds. We might of course see the occasional dog attacking a cat but it is a rarity, (around here at any rate). Although our fridges are full to the brim with other dead organisms that had to be killed to keep us alive, we never really acknowledge it or recognise it - it's something we take for granted. But when you spend your time looking at life this close up, as I do, you really notice a lot more than you would otherwise. The other day I saw a cluster fly stuck in a web in similar fashion, except it wiggled every now and then. That was it, it's life - wrapped up like a chicken in cellophane about to have its juices sucked out while still wriggling. A system purposely and intelligently designed by this god.

I'm interested in why you think a god would design a system in such manner.

(Note 1: for those of you that take everything as an attack: I'm not arguing anything. I am asking a question).

(Note 2: I am asking for your individual opinions and beliefs)

Creation has been sabotaged because of the obtaining of the knowledge of good and evil. You observation is not of the designed state but observation of a twisted state.

In a future restored creation i believe such predation will come to an end.


Isaiah 11

6 “ The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb,
The leopard shall lie down with the young goat,
The calf and the young lion and the fatling together;
And a little child shall lead them.
7 The cow and the bear shall graze;
Their young ones shall lie down together;
And the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 The nursing child shall play by the cobra’s hole,
And the weaned child shall put his hand in the viper’s den.
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,
For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD
As the waters cover the sea.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

Creation has been sabotaged because of the obtaining of the knowledge of good and evil. You observation is not of the designed state but observation of a twisted state.

In a future restored creation i believe such predation will come to an end.

Evening Adstar.....Has this been predicted? I think most of us here are having a problem with man's original sin responsible for turning docile creatures into ferocious killers. Now if well known carnivores today were around before the OS then were they specifically equipped for the hunt? You know fangs, claws, etc. or were they designed a bit different? Why did certain animals become killers? Why not killer sheep? For that matter why are they not all preying on each other?

 

[lightgigantic]

I actually thought I would just ask for theists opinions on why their god would design a system that works on predation. That is, why their god would create a system where in order to survive, organisms need to kill other organisms.

I took this picture a couple of days ago:

You know, we don't tend to notice it much. It's not like we're walking down the street too often and end up seeing one animal come along and rip another to shreds. We might of course see the occasional dog attacking a cat but it is a rarity, (around here at any rate). Although our fridges are full to the brim with other dead organisms that had to be killed to keep us alive, we never really acknowledge it or recognise it - it's something we take for granted. But when you spend your time looking at life this close up, as I do, you really notice a lot more than you would otherwise. The other day I saw a cluster fly stuck in a web in similar fashion, except it wiggled every now and then. That was it, it's life - wrapped up like a chicken in cellophane about to have its juices sucked out while still wriggling. A system purposely and intelligently designed by this god.

I'm interested in why you think a god would design a system in such manner.

(Note 1: for those of you that take everything as an attack: I'm not arguing anything. I am asking a question).

(Note 2: I am asking for your individual opinions and beliefs)

basically it boils down to dealing with the living entities desire to seek happiness separate from god, which inevitably involves wronging other living entities (who also come here for the same express purpose) ... so a backlog or karma gives us what we have - namely the material world operating by force (that inflicts experiences which compensate for our experiences that we inflict on others). This world acts as a shadow reflection of the original spiritual world which operates by love (or desire that harmoniously doesn't infringe on the rights/obligational duties of others).

Generally we have strong ideas how the world could be more harmonious - since inevitably these don't involve god, these ideas are constantly frustrated.

As a further point, sometimes it is argued that god could have made the world slightly less frustrating - the response is, that it is already operating on its lowest possible threshold of frustration.

 

[StrangerInAStrangeLand]

Adstar & lightgigantic, would you guys try to figure out how to clip out part of the huge quote?

I actually thought I would just ask for theists opinions on why their god would design a system that works on predation. That is, why their god would create a system where in order to survive, organisms need to kill other organisms.
You know, we don't tend to notice it much. It's not like we're walking down the street too often and end up seeing one animal come along and rip another to shreds. We might of course see the occasional dog attacking a cat but it is a rarity, (around here at any rate). Although our fridges are full to the brim with other dead organisms that had to be killed to keep us alive, we never really acknowledge it or recognise it - it's something we take for granted. But when you spend your time looking at life this close up, as I do, you really notice a lot more than you would otherwise. The other day I saw a cluster fly stuck in a web in similar fashion, except it wiggled every now and then. That was it, it's life - wrapped up like a chicken in cellophane about to have its juices sucked out while still wriggling. A system purposely and intelligently designed by this god.
I'm interested in why you think a god would design a system in such manner.

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

Would you guys try to figure out how to clip out part of the huge quote?

Just hit quote then delete what you don't want. Don't erase quote tags. preview your posts until you get it right. Once you get used to it then its easy

 

[Adstar]

Evening Adstar.....Has this been predicted? I think most of us here are having a problem with man's original sin responsible for turning docile creatures into ferocious killers. Now if well known carnivores today were around before the OS then were they specifically equipped for the hunt? You know fangs, claws, etc. or were they designed a bit different? Why did certain animals become killers? Why not killer sheep? For that matter why are they not all preying on each other?

I don't know.

The knowledge of Good and Evil is the knowledge of both evil and good so therefore if nature was to reflect the changed nature of mankind then you would need both aspects represented.

Predator and Prey.

I guess if we simply came to the knowledge of just evil then the world might well be a world of predators. But i guess that world would not have lasted long would it.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

I don't know.

The knowledge of Good and Evil is the knowledge of both evil and good so therefore if nature was to reflect the changed nature of mankind then you would need both aspects represented.

Predator and Prey.

I guess if we simply came to the knowledge of just evil then the world might well be a world of predators. But i guess that world would not have lasted long would it.

Great answer but not unexpected. I like how you worked in G & E with Pred & Prey.

 

[KennyJC]

This is the sticking point for me:

If a sentient being designed our universe, then he made evolution to be predator and prey right off the bat. Right now life may be relatively comfortable and sometimes uncomfortable. But wait till your dying moment or wait until your guts are being eaten by prey as you hopelessly scream and your life ends in extreme misery and desperation.

God... Ha!

Nature is blind and thereby this sort of thing can be excused. Bring a god into the picture then the whole thing just becomes sick and twisted.

 

[Jan Ardena]

SnakeLord,

1. Can I ask what designed nature and it's 'laws' then if not a god?

I'll ask you again. What makes you think material nature is designed, or created by g(G)od.

2. If the answer is 'nothing' am I to understand that you would state that predation, (including everything that goes with it), *poofed* itself into existence without direction from the gods?

What about the, 'nature is eternal', option?

Note that when I say 'everything that goes with it' I mean things like sharp teeth.
The bible is quite clear that god created all the animals but if he didn't create predation then surely you should be under the impression that god created lions etc with flat teeth, (or no teeth), and these teeth just then appeared by themselves slightly later on? This goes for many things, from teeth to claws to defensive mechanisms. Did god design tortoises shell-less because there was nothing that was going to attack them?

Predation is necessary for survival in the material world, due to its nature, so bodies are equipt with mechanisms to perform the four basic functions, eat, sleep, reproduce, and defend.
The material world is constantly changing; things come into being, they grow, they produce off-spring, they deteriorate, and then they die. This is due to the nature of matter.

jan

 

[swarm]

SnakeLord

1. Can I ask what designed nature and it's 'laws' then if not a god?

Nature doesn't require design. "Laws" are something we invent to describe our understanding of how nature works.

2. If the answer is 'nothing' am I to understand that you would state that predation, (including everything that goes with it), *poofed* itself into existence without direction from the gods?

The answer is not "nothing." The answer is your question is flawed. Predation didn't just "poof" with or without gods. It developed over the course of time.

here is a little quicky paper on the evolution of the jaw: http://skywalker.cochise.edu/wellerr/students/armored-fish/armored-fish.htm
something more scholarly: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hall/1383/3A001.htm

The bible is just your book. It was written by bronze age sheep herders. How much bronze age wisdom do you trust today? Why do you still trust that?

 

[Jan Ardena]

Jan Ardena Apparently there is a universe where everything is perfect, it is known as the spiritual world, or the Kingdom of God.

And how would you know? You've been there? Some body told you? You read it in a book?

Did you know gullible is not in the dictionary?

My response was directed at Michael, in similar mood to his question.
As the word "gullible" is defined in the dictionary, I assume there is a point to your question.

Did you know that "apparently" is defined in the dictionary?

Also, I think you'll find that SnakeLord, is most probably more in agreement with your understanding, than not.

jan.

 

[swarm]

Jan Ardena

My response ...

So how would you know? You've been there? Somebody told you? You read it in a book?

You are making claims about this "kingdom of god" as if you actually know something about it but I think you are just parroting things someone else made up.

You do at least have travel brochures with nice glossy pics and smiling natives?

 

[Balerion]

You seem to forget all your bible studies when you were a little boy ...or are you still a little boy?

Read about the Garden of Eden sometime. God did design a perfect world in the beginning, but then he gave us free will. Adam and Eve fucked up so God threw them out of the perfect garden. Remember?

Baron Max

Oh, you took that story literally?

Wow.

I wonder if it was your age or your IQ...

 

[SnakeLord]

Adstar

Creation has been sabotaged because of the obtaining of the knowledge of good and evil.

1. Am I to understand that when you say "sabotaged" you mean something other than god designed and created predation or that predation just *poofed* itself into existence?

2. 'Evil' must have existed before the obtaining of knowledge of it. Whom created 'evil'?

In a future restored creation i believe such predation will come to an end.

When you realise something is broken or, to use your words, "twisted" is there a valid reason you can think of to leave it broken for millennia upon millennia, (and we need to take into account your christian belief that 1 day to us is 1000 years to this god), if you have the ability and desire to fix it?

-----

lightgigantic

basically it boils down to dealing with the living entities desire to seek happiness separate from god, which inevitably involves wronging other living entities

I see. Why then are those that don't want to be separate from god but indeed want and declare a personal relationship with him victims of predation?

-----

Jan Ardena

I'll ask you again. What makes you think material nature is designed, or created by g(G)od.

I am an atheist, hence I don't think nature was designed or created by gods. I am asking theists - most of whom do. If you're not one of them, if you don't think nature was designed or created then feel free to not answer the question.

What about the, 'nature is eternal', option?

Kindly explain.

Predation is necessary for survival in the material world

A theist cannot argue necessity. Nothing is necessary with regards to gods and their creations.

-----

swarm

It seems you have got the wrong impression.

 

[Enmos]

Oh, you might be delighted to learn that Lions and Tigers are almost extinct now. A few more decades of spraw and expansion and we will have a Perfect World.... just Human Beings and friendly House Pets.

I will off myself if that happens.

 

[lightgigantic]

Snakelord

“
basically it boils down to dealing with the living entities desire to seek happiness separate from god, which inevitably involves wronging other living entities
”
I see. Why then are those that don't want to be separate from god but indeed want and declare a personal relationship with him victims of predation?

-----

there is one term "parabdha karma"

(from "surrender unto me", a commentary on BG 4.37)

37 As a blazing fire turns firewood to ashes, O Arjuna, so does the fire of knowledge burn to ashes all reactions to material activities.

Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakur comments: “Krsna says, ‘For one whose heart has become purified, I destroy completely whatever karma has already been generated with the exception of his parabdha-karma.’” Transcendental knowledge thus destroys all reactions, both pious and sinful; all, that is, except parabhda-karma, or matured reactions, such as one’s present material body.

You might want to remember that a person on the platform you suggest can clearly see the distinctions between the activities of the body and the activities of the soul.

If parabdha karma got destroyed, a saintly person would simply vanish from external vision after perfecting their discipline. This would have implications for society at large, since they would be unable to indicate the path of spiritual perfection to others.

Actually a classic example of this is Jesus, who's body underwent so much torment simply for the sake of establishing religiosity in a down and out part of the world. Just because the body of a saintly person is severely tormented in no way indicates that they are actually tormented.

(Luke 23.34 Jesus kept saying, "Father, forgive them, because they don't know what they're doing." etc etc)

 

[SnakeLord]

If parabdha karma got destroyed, a saintly person would simply vanish from external vision after perfecting their discipline. This would have implications for society at large, since they would be unable to indicate the path of spiritual perfection to others.

I see. So basically it doesn't just boil down to ones desire to be separate from god but also down to ones perfected desire to be with god but the unfortunate fact that they have to remain here as much a victim as anyone else, because gaining an adequate desire to be with gods is something nobody can manage by themselves?

It's worth mentioning also that this doesn't really answer the question. I originally asked why god designed and implemented predation. You said because of ones desire to be separate from god. Let me please just clarify. Are you saying that 'god designed predation because certain individuals didn't want to be with him'?

 

[swarm]

SnakeLord
It seems you have got the wrong impression.

Drat.
Nothing like a perfectly good rant getting messed up by a misperception.
Sorry about that.

 

[Jan Ardena]

SnakeLord,

I am an atheist, hence I don't think nature was designed or created by gods. I am asking theists - most of whom do. If you're not one of them, if you don't think nature was designed or created then feel free to not answer the question.

The question has nothing to do with the design of nature, from my perspective, but is about the nature of living beings.
I have answered the question posed by you, but am still curious as to why you think that theists believe God actually designed nature itself.
You say some theist believe this. Can you give any examples?

Kindly explain.

Explain?
Okay.
That nature itself (as in material) is never destroyed, therefore it never begun.

A theist cannot argue necessity. Nothing is necessary with regards to gods and their creations.

Why not? and Why not?


swarm,

So how would you know? You've been there? Somebody told you? You read it in a book?

Are you purposely acting obtuse, or did you really not understand my response to your post?

You are making claims about this "kingdom of god" as if you actually know something about it but I think you are just parroting things someone else made up.

Did you look up the word "apparently"? I did leave a hint.

apparently;

according to what seems true: according to what seems to be the case but may not actually be so

jan.

 

[SnakeLord]

I have answered the question posed by you, but am still curious as to why you think that theists believe God actually designed nature itself.
You say some theist believe this. Can you give any examples?

Most certainly. All those espousing ID, (Intelligent design) and those that have answered this post, (on this forum and others), by saying "god designed predation because..", which seems to be the majority of people that bothered.

Furthermore,

"..the portion of the universe which we can comprehend seems designed for a purpose, despite our personal opinion." - Jan Ardena (why do you value truth more than hope..)

"Those personal opinions of "poor design" are irrelivant, as they make no difference to the fact that things do look designed" - Jan Ardena (why do you value truth more than hope..)

I do believe that predation would be included in "things" and most certainly seems to be a "portion of our universe which we can comprehend". Perhaps not.

That nature itself (as in material) is never destroyed, therefore it never begun.

So it is equal in eternal status alongside god? Something separate from god existed alongside him for eternity?

Why not? and Why not?

Omnipotence and the lack of needs - unless of course the theist argues that their version of a god isn't omnipotent and/or does have needs.