Predation..

[SnakeLord]

I actually thought I would just ask for theists opinions on why their god would design a system that works on predation. That is, why their god would create a system where in order to survive, organisms need to kill other organisms.

I took this picture a couple of days ago:

You know, we don't tend to notice it much. It's not like we're walking down the street too often and end up seeing one animal come along and rip another to shreds. We might of course see the occasional dog attacking a cat but it is a rarity, (around here at any rate). Although our fridges are full to the brim with other dead organisms that had to be killed to keep us alive, we never really acknowledge it or recognise it - it's something we take for granted. But when you spend your time looking at life this close up, as I do, you really notice a lot more than you would otherwise. The other day I saw a cluster fly stuck in a web in similar fashion, except it wiggled every now and then. That was it, it's life - wrapped up like a chicken in cellophane about to have its juices sucked out while still wriggling. A system purposely and intelligently designed by this god.

I'm interested in why you think a god would design a system in such manner.

(Note 1: for those of you that take everything as an attack: I'm not arguing anything. I am asking a question).

(Note 2: I am asking for your individual opinions and beliefs)

 

[swarm]

God loves blood sacrifice and burnt flesh.

Children are his first choice, but if you bitch about it any young animal will do, lambs, calves, kids...cut their throats on the alter and let the blood flow then throw their dead bodies on the sacrificial fire.

 

[Leo Volont]

Well, "to make an omelette one might have to break a few eggs".

The Universe, as we see it, favors a Higher Organization of Life. The Higher a Lifeform evolves, the more immune that Life Form becomes in regards to the Predatory Foodchain.

Indeed, I had recently read an interesting book, "Blood Rites" by Barbara Ehrenreich (she actually got a Grant to write the book). She points out that Humanity has probably been impacted more by once having been vulnerable prey than by any more recent status of being a Top of the Food Chain Predator. For instance, the Institution of the Sacrifice may very well source from the days when the Tribe would suggest that somebody please go outside and assuage the Lion's appetite or it will never leave, allowing the tribe to get back to business.

Then Sacrifice may have evolved into something like Human Bait.

But now that Humanity seems to be on top of the Ol' Food Chain, one wonders what the complaint is? The Vegtable Kingdom is largely non-predatory, but we can see that plants and trees have very little in the way of Collective Social Behavior. The Predator-Prey dynamics have done much in the way of fascilitating Humanities trend toward social organization.

Oh, there is the matter of Predatory Behavior between some Humans and others. We have heard recently of Predatory Loan Practices. Really, much of Capitalism is predicated upon predatory assumptions and dynamics. Up until now Humanity, as a whole has been using Sacrifice to deal with these Human Predators... we are willing to Sacrifice Losers to the Greed of the Capitalist Lions. Sooner or later Humanity will rediscover its Old Secret for dealing with the Predators -- Big Sticks, Sharpened Points, and Collective Unity... then Club and Stab the crap out of the Lions... the Predators.

One wonders why Billions of people put up with a relative handful of people enslaving the rest... dictating ownership, workplace rules, everything in our lives... making a joke of Democracy! Government decides so little, while our Bosses crack the whips and make us all jump. If we don't like it we can quit... and starve.

Hey... we have nothing to lose but our chains...

 

[Leo Volont]

Oh, you might be delighted to learn that Lions and Tigers are almost extinct now. A few more decades of spraw and expansion and we will have a Perfect World.... just Human Beings and friendly House Pets.

 

[Michael]

You know, I asked this same question once. Why didn't God just make a universe where there was no need for food. Or even make this one but we get our energy from the sun-light.

But, alas, God... She loves Her BBQ? I can't say I blame her. I love T-bone steak too


And what about SEX? Why not make humans have no need for sexual reproduction that way all humans are equal and are tested equally. Why should some women have to endure a man who brings home an 18 year wife because he can't get a woody on the old one that's pumped out 12 kids? ... anyway, yes, god acts in mysterious ways yadda yadda yadda....

 

[StrangerInAStrangeLand]

Great photography!
There are no tigers left in Africa.
Life, the universe & everything seem to be designed but not very well. If I knew it is designed, I'd wonder about the motivation of the designer.
No need for sexual reproduction is good but I'd want sex if it's greatly improved.

 

[Balerion]

I think this is sort of where the need for religion comes from, actually; the idea that we are mortal, that all things are mortal. Perhaps a byproduct of our level of intelligence is the ability to think ourselves right out of our minds, and we need that one thing that can help each one of us cope when we encounter death...faith. I believe that is why mythology (and mythology centered around, or at least featuring, an afterlife) has existed everywhere for as long as we have existed.

Enough rambling, and on to your point.

I have thought of this same question, and honestly, it's just one more of the things that I bring up when zealots get on my case. I mean, if this universe was created by a loving presence, we would not be required to kill and eat life.

 

[StrangerInAStrangeLand]

The god of The Holy Babble is the worst example of love.

 

[SnakeLord]

Sorry Leo but none of that actually answers the question. You said; Well, "to make an omelette one might have to break a few eggs", which only examples the same thing - it doesn't explain why a creator, (that theists claim as 'loving'), would intelligently and intentionally create the system to work in such manner.

 

[Jan Ardena]

SnakeLord,

Very nice photo.
Where does it say that God designed nature (system)?
Material nature has its own characteristics.

jan.

 

[Leo Volont]

I actually did answer the question (and in significant detail), but I suppose I should have made it easier for the likes of you.

Sorry Leo but none of that actually answers the question. You said; Well, "to make an omelette one might have to break a few eggs", which only examples the same thing - it doesn't explain why a creator, (that theists claim as 'loving'), would intelligently and intentionally create the system to work in such manner.

 

[Baron Max]

I actually thought I would just ask for theists opinions on why their god would design a system that works on predation. That is, why their god would create a system where in order to survive, organisms need to kill other organisms.

And just what would control the population explosions that would occur without predators?

And if all animals of the world ate only plants, it wouldn't be long before the over-population of animals would eat all the plants. Then what?

Baron Max

 

[Balerion]

And just what would control the population explosions that would occur without predators?

And if all animals of the world ate only plants, it wouldn't be long before the over-population of animals would eat all the plants. Then what?

Baron Max

As usual, the point flies right over your head.

...you must be really short.

It was more a question of "why would a supreme being that loves us makes us kill other life in order to sustain ourselves", not a question of "why can't we just stop eating each other".

 

[SnakeLord]

Where does it say that God designed nature (system)?

Maybe I have been mistaken then. A god didn't design nature?

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I actually did answer the question (and in significant detail), but I suppose I should have made it easier for the likes of you.

Unfortunately you did not - and your claim that you did isn't helped by the pointless ad hom stuck at the end of it.

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And just what would control the population explosions that would occur without predators?

A bigger planet?

Just to clarify.. You are telling me that this god designed predation to prevent running out of room? It's certainly original, I have some slight niggles with it - I shall get to them later.

And if all animals of the world ate only plants, it wouldn't be long before the over-population of animals would eat all the plants. Then what?

Why is that?

One further thing:

You have expressed your concern that we would run into problems if this god hadn't created predation. Even if we agreed with such a statement, (which is impossible to do with regards to a needless, omnipotent entity), it would give us a general form of system: (a kills b kills c) but wouldn't actually look into the details of that system. You see, it isn't anything remotely pleasant. Now, if predation is needed, you would think that a loving god would design it with the least torturous method possible in mind. This isn't evidenced - in fact it seems to be the complete opposite. The spider wasp for instance lays its eggs inside a living spider. It then seals that spider in a pre-dug hole and then eventually the eggs hatch and the still alive spider is eaten from the inside out. It seems, to me at least, that this isn't a case of a loving entity designing something required but a crazed lunatic designing something downright deplorable.

So the question: Would you consider anything.. 'overkill'? If so, why would that be the case and if not, on what basis would such actions be supported?

 

[Varda]

that's a beautiful picture, snakelord
may I see a high resolution version?

 

[Jan Ardena]

SnakeLord,

Maybe you are mistaken, or maybe not.
I'm not aware of any scripture which states that God designed material nature. He is always described as being in control of it.
Material nature has its laws, which include amongst other things, anihilation. The material body is subject to these laws, as it is also made of matter.

jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

You know, I asked this same question once. Why didn't God just make a universe where there was no need for food. Or even make this one but we get our energy from the sun-light.

But, alas, God... She loves Her BBQ? I can't say I blame her. I love T-bone steak too


And what about SEX? Why not make humans have no need for sexual reproduction that way all humans are equal and are tested equally. Why should some women have to endure a man who brings home an 18 year wife because he can't get a woody on the old one that's pumped out 12 kids? ... anyway, yes, god acts in mysterious ways yadda yadda yadda....

Apparently there is a universe where everything is perfect, it is known as the spiritual world, or the Kingdom of God.

jan.

 

[swarm]

Jan Ardena Apparently there is a universe where everything is perfect, it is known as the spiritual world, or the Kingdom of God.

And how would you know? You've been there? Some body told you? You read it in a book?

Did you know gullible is not in the dictionary?

 

[Baron Max]

It was more a question of "why would a supreme being that loves us makes us kill other life in order to sustain ourselves", not a question of "why can't we just stop eating each other".

You seem to forget all your bible studies when you were a little boy ...or are you still a little boy?

Read about the Garden of Eden sometime. God did design a perfect world in the beginning, but then he gave us free will. Adam and Eve fucked up so God threw them out of the perfect garden. Remember?

Baron Max

 

[SnakeLord]

that's a beautiful picture, snakelord
may I see a high resolution version?

Certainly, once I have paid for my domain and hosting, (some time this week - whenever I get a moment). Until them I'm using imageshack

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I'm not aware of any scripture which states that God designed material nature. He is always described as being in control of it.
Material nature has its laws, which include amongst other things, anihilation. The material body is subject to these laws, as it is also made of matter.

1. Can I ask what designed nature and it's 'laws' then if not a god?

2. If the answer is 'nothing' am I to understand that you would state that predation, (including everything that goes with it), *poofed* itself into existence without direction from the gods?

Note that when I say 'everything that goes with it' I mean things like sharp teeth. The bible is quite clear that god created all the animals but if he didn't create predation then surely you should be under the impression that god created lions etc with flat teeth, (or no teeth), and these teeth just then appeared by themselves slightly later on? This goes for many things, from teeth to claws to defensive mechanisms. Did god design tortoises shell-less because there was nothing that was going to attack them?

There's one of the problems with the notion that a god created animals but not predation.