Pope Benedict attacks UK Equality Bill

The legal framework

Spidergoat said:

Wouldn't it be just as inappropriate for a church to hire gays or atheists as it would be for a strip club to hire ugly people? There is a difference between discrimination and just not being right for the job.

I see it quite simply. Churches wish to remain private? They can hire according to their own bigotry. Separation of church and state. They want public benefits (e.g., money or facilities)? They must adhere to public standards.

But that's based on the legal framework in the U.S. What does the U.K. say about these issues?
 
I guess they do, why couldn't a former whaler work for PETA? What job did you have in mind?

Fair enough. At least you are consistent in your argument.
But an unreconstructed whale killer would not fit in very well in the PETA office.
 
Is anyone really surprised that the POPE isn't interested in equality???

HellOOoo.
 
Interesting. We hear so little about this up here. As various Google searches come up with polar and climate study issues, or else hockey, it seems a fairly obscure issue. I'd take a try at answering your question, but I've got nothing to work with. Perhaps you might be so kind as to offer us some sort of link or reference as a starting point?

Look at post 8, I provided the link the facility.. The 'Insturctional Center' is IC- there you can get help from tutors in many subjects- its only for minority students... Its not listed on their website but they do have answers to old exams that professors post online.... Many professors don't provide the answers to the class- for example my Organic Chemistry professor put online an Old Exam but he never gave the answers... At IC they have the answers to those old exams AND ON TOP the tutor held a session where he went over the whole exam and provided the answers showing step-by-step process of how to work out the problems- so the students learned how to derive an answer for those questions- this is apart from them having all the answers in a binder where you can just go and see the answers.

None of this is available to 'non-minority' students. And it just happened to be that the 3rd exam of the class was EXACTLY the same! Of course the professor didn't put up that same exam.. For example he put up his old 2007 and 2008 exams... But IC has his previous exams too like from 2005 and 2006. The actual exam was EXACTLY the same exam as from 2005 and I knew all the answers because I went to IC and had access to his 2005 exam AND ANSWERS. While the professor only uploaded his 2007 and 2008 exams!

Peace be unto you ;)
 
I know. I don't think they employ any women at the Vatican.

they have nuns there, but they don't get bowed to like the priests do, by the guards that are dressed like jesters. ???

listen people, there is NOTHING about roman catholicism that speaks of equality. the church is a hierarchy, that serves to take the place of christ and a personal relationship with god through Him, the pope being the head or king. he wears a robe and a 4 ft adorned hat, drives around in the pope-mobile waving at the poor masses through bullet-proof glass, or in a bentley, or a rolls royce. they live in a palace, adorned with the most expensive things in the entire world. they have wealth that is unmatched in the world (most of which was stolen btw). they act as royalty, they are treated as royalty, and they claim to ensure salvation through the indoctrination into their organization.

WAKE UP.
 
It would appear the situation isn't so simple

786 said:

Look at post 8, I provided the link the facility ....

Ah, thank you. I don't know how I missed it.

None of this is available to 'non-minority' students.

At all? Or through the Office of Minority Affairs? I mean, I don't yet see anything suggesting that non-minority students have absolutely no access to such study materials whatsoever.

According to a recent proposal to update the IC computer lab:

During the 2008-2009 school year, the Office of Minority Affairs & Diversity Instructional Center served, on average, 2,247 students who visited various programs at the Center an average of 53,993 times per year. It should be mentioned that although the IC was established primarily to provide academic support to Educational Opportunity Program (EOP) students, an average of 295 non-EOP students (260 of whom are majority) were also served during this period. Approximately two-thirds of all students served sought academic support in mathematics, science and engineering courses ....

.... upgrading the IC computer lab would substantially increase access to instructional support for EOP students. It is important to note as well that, were it not for space and staffing constraints, an even greater number of non-EOP students than are usually served (approximately one out of every four students) would be encouraged to participate because their participation has shown a positive correlation with the academic achievement of EOP students over a nine-year period. We also strive to play a significant role in advancing diversity on campus by encouraging non-minority students to participate in study groups and workshops. Such efforts have led to an 85% participation rate among non-EOP students who are majority students.


(Boldface accent added)

Thus, it would seem that—

• "At UW (University of Washington) there is a study center called I.C.E- you have to be a minority to get in it ...." (#2)

• "Its only for 'OMA/D' students who are minority ...." (#8)

• "None of this is available to 'non-minority' students." (#24)​

—these statements are false.

And, just for the record, I knew to go looking for more information about student access—and thus found the proposal for the lab upgrade—because of the link you provided:

When non-EOP students come to the IC , they will first visit the Front Desk to register. In order for students to be properly registered, they must turn in a Referral Form to the front desk. Once the student has completely filled in the form, the Director will either accept or deny the request for tutorial help based on various criteria, with space availability being one example. If the form is approved, an IC scan-card will be issued to the student.

(Office of Minority Affairs and Diversity)

Sounds like a good program that needs to be expanded. Of course, one does wonder why OMA/D is left to do it. Rather than saying, "It's unfair," perhaps people might ask the general administration, "How did you miss this boat?" OMA/D is doing what it can to increase access to non-EOP students, and as it's acceptable for students to have access to former exams and answers, there really is no reason for OMA/D to carry the burden itself.

And perhaps they don't. That information may well be available in the general UW network, and people might not be aware of it because nobody is pointing it out to them. I highly doubt the entirety of EOP/IC's network access is contained on restricted servers. And, as the data exists, there's nothing EOP can do to hoard it away from everyone else.
____________________

Notes:

Reed, Richard. "IC Computer Lab Update". University of Washington. (n.d.) TechFee.Washington.edu. February 3, 2010. http://techfee.washington.edu/proposals/view/2010-084-1/

Office of Minority Affairs and Diversity. "Instructional Center: Support". University of Washington. February 1, 2010. Depts.Washington.edu. February 3, 2010. http://depts.washington.edu/ic/graphics/support.php
 
Tiassa-

thanks for the research you did... I guess my statements were false because they were highly generalized.. except for the statement about I.C.E as I did put down the wrong acronym which I already admitted previosly.

But the fact doesn't change that the facility is for minorty students- they are trying to expand it to others which is great- but if space does run out what then? Kind of like saying the food is for blacks only but if there are left overs then the whitey can take it?

And the exam answers are not on 'servers' they are on paper... The answers are made by the tutors working at the IC. They actually had placed a ban on photo-copying those answers once although the student working there didn't really care. This happened because the exam I'm talking about in our class had a average of more than 90% so the professor complained.. Its his fault really for giving the same exam. Also people can probably find even older exams by still that doesn't mean they have answers they still only have questions... They could choose to go to the general study centers and have them worked out by tutors but that is still much different then IC giving the answers on a platter- just open up the binder and look at the answers ;)

Most people know that IC has the answers so they ask their friends to get them from there- as you know a lot of people in science classes are asians :D So they get access as they are minority and spread it out...

And my example was only to make the simple point.. There are exclusive programs around the country catered only towards minorities which sometimes gives them a unfair advantage.

Peace be unto you ;)
 
I see it quite simply. Churches wish to remain private? They can hire according to their own bigotry. Separation of church and state. They want public benefits (e.g., money or facilities)? They must adhere to public standards.
In America they already get public benefits: they are exempt from taxation. Everyone else has to pay for their roads, fire protection and other government services because they don't.
 
I don't see any inherent conflict

Fraggle Rocker said:

In America they already get public benefits: they are exempt from taxation. Everyone else has to pay for their roads, fire protection and other government services because they don't.

And non-religious organizations can get similar benefits: 501(c)(3).

Interestingly, there are some Christian organizations that resent this aspect of tax-exempt status:

Most churches in America have organized as "501c3 tax-exempt religious organizations." This is a fairly recent trend that has only been going on for about fifty years. Churches were only added to section 501c3 of the tax code in 1954. We can thank Sen. Lyndon B. Johnson for that. Johnson was no ally of the church. As part of his political agenda, Johnson had it in mind to silence the church and eliminate the significant influence the church had always had on shaping "public policy."

Although Johnson proffered this as a "favor" to churches, the favor also came with strings attached (more like shackles). One need not look far to see the devastating effects 501c3 acceptance has had to the church, and the consequent restrictions placed upon any 501c3 church. 501c3 churches are prohibited from addressing, in any tangible way, the vital issues of the day.

For a 501c3 church to openly speak out, or organize in opposition to, anything that the government declares "legal," even if it is immoral (e.g. abortion, homosexuality, etc.), that church will jeopardize its tax exempt status. The 501c3 has had a "chilling effect" upon the free speech rights of the church. LBJ was a shrewd and cunning politician who seemed to well-appreciate how easily many of the clergy would sell out.


(Kershaw)

In May, 2000, the D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled against a church in Branch v. Rossotti: Branch Ministries had participated in the 1992 election in violation of its tax-exempt status, and the IRS responded by revoking that privilege. Branch Ministries and its pastor, Dan Little, sued the IRS, complaining that the IRS had no statutory authority to revoke a church's tax-exempt status, that the revocation violated its First Amendment rights, and that the IRS violated its Fifth Amendment equal protection guarantees. The D.C. Circuit Court, in 1997, granted summary judgment in favor of the IRS. Branch, of course, appealed.

Senior Judge Buckley issued the opinion of the court on May 12, 2000. And this is actually a somewhat fun decision to read:

The Church argues that, under the Internal Revenue Code, the IRS does not have the statutory authority to revoke the tax-exempt status of a bona fide church. It reasons as follows: section 501(c)(3) refers to tax-exempt status for religious organizations, not churches; section 508, on the other hand, specifically exempts "churches" from the requirement of applying for advance recognition of tax-exempt status, id. § 508(c)(1)(A); therefore, according to the Church, its tax-exempt status is derived not from section 501(c)(3), but from the lack of any provision in the Code for the taxation of churches. The Church concludes from this that it is not subject to taxation and that the IRS is therefore powerless to place conditions upon or to remove its tax-exempt status as a church.

We find this argument more creative than persuasive. The simple answer, of course, is that whereas not every religious organization is a church, every church is a religious organization. More to the point, irrespective of whether it was required to do so, the Church applied to the IRS for an advance determination of its tax-exempt status. The IRS granted that recognition and now seeks to withdraw it. CAPA gives the IRS this power.


(Boldface accent added)

Additionally, after laughing off the Church's lament that taxes would destroy it, the court cited a 1983 Supreme Court decision against an anti-tax organization: "Congress has not violated [an organization's] First Amendment rights by declining to subsidize its First Amendment activities".

As to the Fifth Amendment complaint, the court simply ruled that Branch failed to establish selective prosecution. And ten years later, churches are still upset that they are being treated equally to other non-profit organizations that aren't religious.

I don't see any real conflict in a church's tax-exempt status as a general proposition. At least until they start actually receiving specific public benefits. I would expect that organizations participating in the Office of Faith-Based Initiatives, or whatever the hell we call it, should be subject to EEOC regulation. When I was a child, my family was what I call "Holiday Christians". Easter and Christmas Eve were the two days a year you could be sure to find us in church. And when we first attended the Lutheran church that later confirmed me, it congregated in the cafeteria of my elementary school while they built the actual church building. I think as long as a church chooses to use public facilities in such a manner, they ought to be subject to EEOC regulation.

I would have to actually build a case regarding whether or not non-religious 501(c)(3) entities should be exempt from EEOC regulation, but it seems reasonable enough to me. This would either open non-profits to whatever discriminatory hiring practices they choose (e.g., I could start a literary organization that qualifies under 501(c)(3) and refuse to hire Christians or heterosexuals, if that's how the churches get to do it), or force churches to drop yet another aspect of their presumed legal superiority.

I would actually hope for the latter; I think it would be a bad idea to turn us all loose like that. But, no, I'm not disturbed by church tax exemptions regardless of how they feel about a 501(c)(3) that distributes condoms to anyone who needs them regardless of age, place of origin, sexual orientaiton, &c.
____________________

Notes:

Kershaw, Peter. "501c3 Facts". (n.d.) HushMoney.org. February 3, 2010. http://hushmoney.org/501c3-facts.htm

Buckley, James. "Opinion for the Court". Branch Ministries v. Rossotti. United States D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals. May 12, 2000. FindLaw.com. February 3, 2010. http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=dc&navby=docket&no=995097a
 
What I don't understand is why gays care about the Catholic church. I mean its obvious that they believe homosexuality to be a sin. Its obvious that the catholic church doesn't openly accommodate homosexuals. Fine. Its part of the religious doctrine, in the blessed bible. I find it disingenuous to try and force the church into accepting that which they think a sin.

I think they have the right to their beliefs. I just don't understand why gays would care:shrug:
 
What I don't understand is why gays care about the Catholic church. I mean its obvious that they believe homosexuality to be a sin. Its obvious that the catholic church doesn't openly accommodate homosexuals. Fine. Its part of the religious doctrine, in the blessed bible. I find it disingenuous to try and force the church into accepting that which they think a sin.

I think they have the right to their beliefs. I just don't understand why gays would care:shrug:

It's about equal opportunities, not really an attack on faith. So forget the bible.

The RCC run lots of things, mostly good causes such as charities, shelters, etc. Unless you can prove a homosexual can't do a certain job because of their sexuality then it isn't fair to discriminate based on your own beliefs. That leaves the door open to discriminate against all sorts of people for any reason that can be made up.
 
It's about equal opportunities, not really an attack on faith. So forget the bible.

The RCC run lots of things, mostly good causes such as charities, shelters, etc. Unless you can prove a homosexual can't do a certain job because of their sexuality then it isn't fair to discriminate based on your own beliefs. That leaves the door open to discriminate against all sorts of people for any reason that can be made up.

But gays are not supposed to have equal opportunities based on church doctrine. The church doesn't pretend everyone is created equal under their system so I don't see why they should be forced to accept gays for hire. Its like a black person complaining about not being allowed the opportunity to be the grand dragon! The church as far as I'm concerned are not a part of secular society as its not a secular institution so they are free to discriminate. They could argue that catholics would take umbrage to having to deal with a gay person whom they think of as a 'sinner' or whatever it is they believe. Anyway I would imagine that a gay person would feel annoyed at having someone constantly trying to change who they are by telling them that they are living an ungodly life!
 
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