Look at your bibles footnotes and judge for yourselves, which is correct. It is a prophecy for the “end times”. Not something back in history. What modern scenario would fit?
POLL Which is correct? 666 or 616?
- Thread starter craterchains (Norval
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I'm fairly certain that neither is correct. I believe that 666 being "the number of the beast" has nothing more behind it than the word for the devil in Hebrew, or Aramaic or some such language just happens to look a little like three sixes. I'm not a theologian but I wouldn't count on that imbuing a number with any evil powers.
Who is imbuing anything with anything. I have seen in the footnotes:
When I come across something that has a reference which is entirely different from the main text, I start wondering why? Why would these text have a different number in the footnotes, guess it is as it says that it takes wisdom to understand but then it's mans number so we should be able to figure it out.
or
When I come across something that has a reference which is entirely different from the main text, I start wondering why? Why would these text have a different number in the footnotes, guess it is as it says that it takes wisdom to understand but then it's mans number so we should be able to figure it out.
If you know what the "Beast" was in the beginning, then you can trace it all the way down to the end.
"It" was the Serpent, in the garden...before the fall it was not a snake.
It was something between a chimpanze and a man, it spoke and reasoned and walked upright. It was the only creature capable of mixing with humans and producing offspring, but being an animal had no soul, and was possessed of Satan to seduce Eve. Adam "knew his wife and she bore a son "Cain, and then again bore his brother Abel. She knew Adam once and bore two sons. Two sons from two different fathers. She said when Cain was born; "I've gotten a Man from the Lord"...sure, because all life comes from God, even animal life. God is the only one who can create life.
Enoch was listed as the "seventh" from Adam, Cain was not included in the count. Eve was called the "mother of all living".
Nowhere is Adam called the "father of all living", because He wasn't.
Cain was "Of his father the wicked one". Was Adam the "wicked one"?..No.
He was born of the Serpent - the "Beast".
Cain displayed a visciousness, and boldfaced rebelion against God that's beyond even that of Satan discribed in the Bible. He mudered his own brother Abel and lied to God's face saying; Am I my brothers keeper?, yet He was very religous...building an alter to God and bringing a sacrifice, and even after seeing that which was right and accepted, Cain refused to repent and do as God required.
The serpent who fathered Cain was cursed and every bone in it's body changed, but Cain carried in Him the hybrid mixture of human and animal, and He. like his offspring though-out history, are liars, murders and religious leaders who "organize" men into religion based on thier own reasoning, and lead them away from God.
Follow the "trail of the serpent" on down to Jesus' day, when he said to the religious leaders then; "You are of your father the devil".
The 70 ministers who follwed Jesus during all the miracles and wonders, stoped when He began to preach His doctrine, He said "unless you eat the flesh and drink the blood of the son of man, you'll have no life in you"
Eat His flesh, meaning "partake of" His word, and drink His blood meaning "partake of His Spirit"....
He did not explain it to them at the time and the 70 ministers began to murmur and say "Who can understand this"...and left Him.
He used the Word to seperate them, Jesus said "I come not to bring peace, but a sword.....to seperate father from brother, ect...
Now....In Revelation it says the number of the beast is the number of a man, and that number is 666.
John chapter 6, verse 66.....the number of a man, John 6:66 says from that day they (the 70) followed Him no more.
Thats the "Mark" of the beast....to come up to the truth - the very One of eternal life Himself, and reject Him.....turning away.
"It" was the Serpent, in the garden...before the fall it was not a snake.
It was something between a chimpanze and a man, it spoke and reasoned and walked upright. It was the only creature capable of mixing with humans and producing offspring, but being an animal had no soul, and was possessed of Satan to seduce Eve. Adam "knew his wife and she bore a son "Cain, and then again bore his brother Abel. She knew Adam once and bore two sons. Two sons from two different fathers. She said when Cain was born; "I've gotten a Man from the Lord"...sure, because all life comes from God, even animal life. God is the only one who can create life.
Enoch was listed as the "seventh" from Adam, Cain was not included in the count. Eve was called the "mother of all living".
Nowhere is Adam called the "father of all living", because He wasn't.
Cain was "Of his father the wicked one". Was Adam the "wicked one"?..No.
He was born of the Serpent - the "Beast".
Cain displayed a visciousness, and boldfaced rebelion against God that's beyond even that of Satan discribed in the Bible. He mudered his own brother Abel and lied to God's face saying; Am I my brothers keeper?, yet He was very religous...building an alter to God and bringing a sacrifice, and even after seeing that which was right and accepted, Cain refused to repent and do as God required.
The serpent who fathered Cain was cursed and every bone in it's body changed, but Cain carried in Him the hybrid mixture of human and animal, and He. like his offspring though-out history, are liars, murders and religious leaders who "organize" men into religion based on thier own reasoning, and lead them away from God.
Follow the "trail of the serpent" on down to Jesus' day, when he said to the religious leaders then; "You are of your father the devil".
The 70 ministers who follwed Jesus during all the miracles and wonders, stoped when He began to preach His doctrine, He said "unless you eat the flesh and drink the blood of the son of man, you'll have no life in you"
Eat His flesh, meaning "partake of" His word, and drink His blood meaning "partake of His Spirit"....
He did not explain it to them at the time and the 70 ministers began to murmur and say "Who can understand this"...and left Him.
He used the Word to seperate them, Jesus said "I come not to bring peace, but a sword.....to seperate father from brother, ect...
Now....In Revelation it says the number of the beast is the number of a man, and that number is 666.
John chapter 6, verse 66.....the number of a man, John 6:66 says from that day they (the 70) followed Him no more.
Thats the "Mark" of the beast....to come up to the truth - the very One of eternal life Himself, and reject Him.....turning away.
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TheVisitor doesn’t even know the first thing of prophecy understanding. The bible clearly states that “beasts” always represent “governmental powers”. His first sentence drops him at the wayside but he thinks he will get a hearing because of his many words. Do you get paid by the number of words you type? These are the only words I will ever type in return to you, as you are more full of shit than a christmas goose.
Just one little problem with this: the Bible was only divided into chapters in the early 1200s, and into verses in the 16th century Chapters and verses - How we got them. That was LONG after Revelation was written.TheVisitor said:
Understanding the "mark of the beast" has little to do with the original Hebrew gematria (numerology according to the Hebrew alphabet). It doesn't matter whether his number was 606, 616 or 666, because we don't attach the same significance to numbers anymore. But in ancient times, slaves were branded on their forehead or hand to indicate they were property - this is what should be understood by a "mark". God's laws could similarly be said to be the "mark of the Christian". The forehead can mean 'what you think', and the hand 'what you do'.
You might also find this article on What is the mark of the beast? helpful.
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- The bible clearly states that “beasts” always represent “governmental powers”.
- "The Bible was only divided into chapters in the early 1200s, and into verses in the 16th century"
-----------------------
All bible references to "Beast" are not govermental powers.
What I stated in my previous post is true, the nature of the beast is in men, it is that which we have to die to, to let Christ be born in us........
There are beasts represented in symbolism which are nations or powers of man, sure.....
Daniel 7:3 - And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.
Rev.13:11 - And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
These are in turn under the powers of Satan, the prince of the power of the air, who has control of principalities, and powers until the setting up of God's kingdom takes this away from him.
It is still the same nature, at emnity or war with God.
However, these scriptures I've listed below are not "Goverment powers", but something else....read carefully:
Ecclesiastes 3:18 - I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts
2 Peter 2:12 - But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
I Corinthians 15:32 - If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.
Titus 1:12 - One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, the Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
Jude 1:10 - But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
Jesus said in Matthew 12:34 - O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
Again in Matthew 23:33 - Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
John the Baptist said in Luke 3:7 - Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Paul said: 2 Corinthians 11:3 - But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
The "Sons of Men", were the children of Cains linage.........."beasts", evil in nature.
The children of Adam and Eve, were the sons of God.......Adam was a son of God, made in the image of God..........so were his children.
Today mankind is a mixture, ones true lineage cannot be told be the color of your skin, or even the depth of sin you've sunken into. Let them grow together until the "Harvest", it was spoken about the "Wheat and the Tares"
The power of the Word will seperate them and manifest to him who has wisdom which they are.
The apostles and prophets knew this and reflected it in their words, it is a mystery that has been known by some, and yet hidden from others since the foundation of the world.
The number 6 is the number of man, the bible records a giant killed in Gath about 1000 B.C., as having six fingers per hand, six toes per foot.
These were desendents of those who excaped the entire genocide of their species ordered by God to be carried out by Joshua a thousand years earlier.
These Cainanites who ruled the land in the days of Abraham, were desendents of the children of Cain, who's seed came over on the ark carried by the wives of Noah and his three sons, which immediantly manifested itself though Ham's perversion and the birth of his cursed son Cainan.
And as for the date of the numbering of the verses.....In Revelations, a book which is a prophetic vision covering 2000 years of events before they happened, the fact the verses weren't numbered at the time of their writing doesn't negate the fact that John 6:66 descibes the "nature of the beast".
The mark of the beast can also be seen in denominations of Man's religions.......remember Cain was very religious, and through his desendants such as Nimrod who led mankind away from worship of the One God after the flood, He taught Men the art of warfare, and introduced the idea of many Gods.
At the tower of Babel all the religions of the earth were forced to come together and worship, this "forced worship" is indictive of the ecuminical movement today, and the World Council of Churches, prophecied in the book of Revelations in Chap 17 to be the Great Harlot, riding a beast (government powers).She (the church) is guilty of commiting fornication against God ( who is supposed to be her husband) the Word, by mixing in creeds and traditions of men, with the kings of the earth, who not only represent the physical, but spiritual kings, with diminion over the sensual elements, or senses not only of the body (see, taste, feel ,hear, smell), but the spirit (memory, imagination, reasoning, emotion, and affections) which are strongholds we are commanded to cast down.
Jenyar -in your research you were right about this :
To be deceived and accept their "revelation" of the truth, (God's Word mixed with their lies and creeds) in your FOREHEAD which represents revelation, or that which you believe, - or to give them your RIGHT HAND in fellowship, by that which you do ..........is a mark of "the beast" manifesting it's nature........
- "The Bible was only divided into chapters in the early 1200s, and into verses in the 16th century"
-----------------------
All bible references to "Beast" are not govermental powers.
What I stated in my previous post is true, the nature of the beast is in men, it is that which we have to die to, to let Christ be born in us........
There are beasts represented in symbolism which are nations or powers of man, sure.....
Daniel 7:3 - And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.
Rev.13:11 - And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
These are in turn under the powers of Satan, the prince of the power of the air, who has control of principalities, and powers until the setting up of God's kingdom takes this away from him.
It is still the same nature, at emnity or war with God.
However, these scriptures I've listed below are not "Goverment powers", but something else....read carefully:
Ecclesiastes 3:18 - I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts
2 Peter 2:12 - But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
I Corinthians 15:32 - If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.
Titus 1:12 - One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, the Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
Jude 1:10 - But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
Jesus said in Matthew 12:34 - O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
Again in Matthew 23:33 - Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
John the Baptist said in Luke 3:7 - Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Paul said: 2 Corinthians 11:3 - But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
The "Sons of Men", were the children of Cains linage.........."beasts", evil in nature.
The children of Adam and Eve, were the sons of God.......Adam was a son of God, made in the image of God..........so were his children.
Today mankind is a mixture, ones true lineage cannot be told be the color of your skin, or even the depth of sin you've sunken into. Let them grow together until the "Harvest", it was spoken about the "Wheat and the Tares"
The power of the Word will seperate them and manifest to him who has wisdom which they are.
The apostles and prophets knew this and reflected it in their words, it is a mystery that has been known by some, and yet hidden from others since the foundation of the world.
The number 6 is the number of man, the bible records a giant killed in Gath about 1000 B.C., as having six fingers per hand, six toes per foot.
These were desendents of those who excaped the entire genocide of their species ordered by God to be carried out by Joshua a thousand years earlier.
These Cainanites who ruled the land in the days of Abraham, were desendents of the children of Cain, who's seed came over on the ark carried by the wives of Noah and his three sons, which immediantly manifested itself though Ham's perversion and the birth of his cursed son Cainan.
And as for the date of the numbering of the verses.....In Revelations, a book which is a prophetic vision covering 2000 years of events before they happened, the fact the verses weren't numbered at the time of their writing doesn't negate the fact that John 6:66 descibes the "nature of the beast".
The mark of the beast can also be seen in denominations of Man's religions.......remember Cain was very religious, and through his desendants such as Nimrod who led mankind away from worship of the One God after the flood, He taught Men the art of warfare, and introduced the idea of many Gods.
At the tower of Babel all the religions of the earth were forced to come together and worship, this "forced worship" is indictive of the ecuminical movement today, and the World Council of Churches, prophecied in the book of Revelations in Chap 17 to be the Great Harlot, riding a beast (government powers).She (the church) is guilty of commiting fornication against God ( who is supposed to be her husband) the Word, by mixing in creeds and traditions of men, with the kings of the earth, who not only represent the physical, but spiritual kings, with diminion over the sensual elements, or senses not only of the body (see, taste, feel ,hear, smell), but the spirit (memory, imagination, reasoning, emotion, and affections) which are strongholds we are commanded to cast down.
Jenyar -in your research you were right about this :
To be deceived and accept their "revelation" of the truth, (God's Word mixed with their lies and creeds) in your FOREHEAD which represents revelation, or that which you believe, - or to give them your RIGHT HAND in fellowship, by that which you do ..........is a mark of "the beast" manifesting it's nature........
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I have often wondered if demonocracy (democracy) could be the “mark” of the beast as a King like Jesus would be a Monarchy.
Barely relevant:
Somewhere in Seventh-Day Adventist literature--and if I don't cite it, it's because I think it's ridiculous and don't wish to misattribute this one--is the claim that the Pope is the Devil because some formulation of the phrase Angus vicar dei (some sort of papal motto, I believe referring to the title of Pope itself: "Vicar, lamb of God," or some such) equals 666.
Yet, a man who happens to be SDA tells me that he doesn't hold with this theory. Rather, the Mark of the Beast will be your wrist barcode ID mark in the future world. Smartcards and chip implants are, for this fellow, heralds of the rise of the Beast. Of course, this man's understanding of history and the Bible is such that I could similarly prove Tom Clancy's "Gospel of Red October" as historical fact, and since he believes his faith to be historically reflective, I have to say that his theory is highly suspect insofar as his understanding of the basis of his claims seems incorrect.
Of course, part of what clouds this issue is that people expect things to look a certain way. The Kingdom of God is defined in people's minds by their own expectations. The coming of the Kingdom would defy any expectation, even biblically-based.
Imagine a world in which no human being starves; every person, right down to the latest unfortunate genetic accident, is treated with proper dignity and compassion from the day of their conception until the day of their passing and disposal. Poverty is controlled, violence is reduced to a deviation, and peace rules the planet.
There are some theologies, even Abramic, that would see the coming of God in this condition. But according to the apocalyptic Christians I know, the apocalyptic materials I've read, and the apocalyptic myths that bleed into the less-educated, more superstitious strata of society, the coming of that day will be the beginning of the Devil's reign, and Jesus will come again to save us from such evil.
How does this work out? Because when you add up the signs of the coming, when you add up the infrastructure required to create a just world--Marks of the Beast are more than just plentiful at that point.
A note for Christians who aren't particularly apocalyptic inasmuch as they're not expecting the Rapture° anytime soon: Please understand, your more paranoid brethren are just a little ... scary. They are the folks who make Christianity look like an ill-tempered social movement cheering for the end of the world. The secret Soviet-American-Papal alliance didn't destroy the world; a host of judgment days prophesized by modern charlatans haven't come about; history may be a lie agreed upon but it's not supposed to be a Patriot Game. And when you get down to it, it's both surprising and downright alarming how deeply these beliefs affect their decisions and, therefore, other people.
And so those who feel misrepresented or victimized by infidel anger at Christianity, please understand that we do know you're human, but the Apocalypse is a superior example of why many infidels mistrust "Christianity."
Somewhere in Seventh-Day Adventist literature--and if I don't cite it, it's because I think it's ridiculous and don't wish to misattribute this one--is the claim that the Pope is the Devil because some formulation of the phrase Angus vicar dei (some sort of papal motto, I believe referring to the title of Pope itself: "Vicar, lamb of God," or some such) equals 666.
Yet, a man who happens to be SDA tells me that he doesn't hold with this theory. Rather, the Mark of the Beast will be your wrist barcode ID mark in the future world. Smartcards and chip implants are, for this fellow, heralds of the rise of the Beast. Of course, this man's understanding of history and the Bible is such that I could similarly prove Tom Clancy's "Gospel of Red October" as historical fact, and since he believes his faith to be historically reflective, I have to say that his theory is highly suspect insofar as his understanding of the basis of his claims seems incorrect.
Of course, part of what clouds this issue is that people expect things to look a certain way. The Kingdom of God is defined in people's minds by their own expectations. The coming of the Kingdom would defy any expectation, even biblically-based.
Imagine a world in which no human being starves; every person, right down to the latest unfortunate genetic accident, is treated with proper dignity and compassion from the day of their conception until the day of their passing and disposal. Poverty is controlled, violence is reduced to a deviation, and peace rules the planet.
There are some theologies, even Abramic, that would see the coming of God in this condition. But according to the apocalyptic Christians I know, the apocalyptic materials I've read, and the apocalyptic myths that bleed into the less-educated, more superstitious strata of society, the coming of that day will be the beginning of the Devil's reign, and Jesus will come again to save us from such evil.
How does this work out? Because when you add up the signs of the coming, when you add up the infrastructure required to create a just world--Marks of the Beast are more than just plentiful at that point.
A note for Christians who aren't particularly apocalyptic inasmuch as they're not expecting the Rapture° anytime soon: Please understand, your more paranoid brethren are just a little ... scary. They are the folks who make Christianity look like an ill-tempered social movement cheering for the end of the world. The secret Soviet-American-Papal alliance didn't destroy the world; a host of judgment days prophesized by modern charlatans haven't come about; history may be a lie agreed upon but it's not supposed to be a Patriot Game. And when you get down to it, it's both surprising and downright alarming how deeply these beliefs affect their decisions and, therefore, other people.
And so those who feel misrepresented or victimized by infidel anger at Christianity, please understand that we do know you're human, but the Apocalypse is a superior example of why many infidels mistrust "Christianity."
----------okinrus said:
M*W: okinrus, in the mystery of Rennes-le-Chateau, France, there were some documents found in an old pillar of the church that are still trying to be decoded. Some theories are that they contained the genealogy of Jesus and MM. Right now, I don't think this enigma has been solved. To make a long story short, and to ask for you opinion on the mystery code, the number 618 may have some significance. This may be related to the Chartres Cathedral. At noon the sun shines through some stained glass "blue apples," and the sunbeam points directly to a chamber underneath the altar and the RCC forbids any opening of this "crypt" nor any digging in the entire region! I realize you don't believe this, but that is not what I'm asking. I'm curious about the number 618, the "bleu apples," where "X" marks the spot, and what might be under that floor!
1-800-829-1040 
Staying on Topic!
Just prior to the statement in Revelations about wisdom is needed, the statement is discussing buying or selling. No one can buy or sell. It seems with democratic societies if a country does not conform to or with democratic reasoning the country is boycotted or invaded.
The meaning of 'beast' is right in the text, even in the older books of the prophets like Daniel; even Daniel was told what the 'beast' was. So this number should have a meaning also. Wouldn't the original manuscript have the correct number?
Just prior to the statement in Revelations about wisdom is needed, the statement is discussing buying or selling. No one can buy or sell. It seems with democratic societies if a country does not conform to or with democratic reasoning the country is boycotted or invaded.
The meaning of 'beast' is right in the text, even in the older books of the prophets like Daniel; even Daniel was told what the 'beast' was. So this number should have a meaning also. Wouldn't the original manuscript have the correct number?
So much has been bantered about when it comes to 666, but note the extreme lack of posts concerning 616? Nobody else seems to have a clue about what that may mean. Researchers of the bible know that 616 is in the oldest available manuscripts. Yet few lay people have even bothered to read the foot notes of their bibles. Why the extreme lack of any discussion as to how 616 may be understood?
You will need the Pope's library card.
So often it is the simplest things we look right over that give the answer. Often we loose sight of the goal and get lost in digging for a deeper meaning. We know that it must represent something of a global power that has control over who can buy and sell. We know UN sanctions follow the USA’s sanctions on who can buy and sell on a world trade market. What is the seat of world power and might today? What are the greek letters for 600?
What? no body can even guess? ok, one lil'l hinty, a C note is one hundred dollars.
So many in "religion" that call themselves christians, and so many that are so very knowledgeable, and no replies? Scotty prepare the transporter.