Plantinga’s “Significant Freedom”

[lightgigantic]

Exactly, without a God your will is as free as it can get.

for as long as one identifies with conditioned life as the pinnacle of freedom, I guess so .....

Nevermind all the bad stuff that goes with it. Nevermind that you believe God would not allow it. If we have free will then there has never been a time in the history of man where God has actually made contact.

To say God gave us free will, the will to do it His way, means free will doesn't exist. At least you could still believe in a God. Free will is the undoing of God.

there's a subtle difference between free will and having the potency to succeed regardless of what one wills (not sure what you would call it ... wistful thinking perhaps, since this sort of "free will" doesn't even exist in everyday society with its legislated and unwritten codes for social conduct to govern every moment of existence)

 

[lightgigantic]

so how is it possible for people in Heaven to have free will and not to sin then?

the same way that it is possible for a person to exist outside of jail and not rob banks, rape, murder, etc (IOW they don't perceive any enjoyment in such activities ... of course their free will on the issue could redefine the circumstances)

why not,
isnt god omnipotent,able to do anything!?

the idea is that the inability to create a round square is an issue of logic and not lack of omnipotency

so why cant he create people with free will and still UNABLE to sin?

how would they be withheld from sinning without impeaching issues of free will?

like I said ,in Heaven its all free will and NOT sin anywhere,or is Heaven Illogical..yeah me thinks so?

or alternatively, the moment you misuse your freewill you wind up somewhere else more suitable ... like say planet earth ... to give vent to one's desires

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

since this sort of "free will" doesn't even exist in everyday society with its legislated and unwritten codes for social conduct to govern every moment of existence)

All that is incorporated into the free will package. What we do with it is anybody's guess. To a large extent, believing that a God gave you free will, is really free will in action. Believing He ordained it is much different than professing that you're knowingly giving Him credit for it. I can accept someone saying they believe God gave us free will but there should be no further elaboration.

 

[lightgigantic]

All that is incorporated into the free will package. What we do with it is anybody's guess. To a large extent, believing that a God gave you free will, is really free will in action. Believing He ordained it is much different than professing that you're knowingly giving Him credit for it. I can accept someone saying they believe God gave us free will but there should be no further elaboration.

no further elaboration?
only if you can cough up the evidence that god doesn't exist

 

[Nasor]

lightgigantic, I still haven't seen any answers from you on how it violates free will for god to only create people who he knows will not choose to sin. Or do you not believe that god knows what choices we will choose to make in advance?

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

no further elaboration? only if you can cough up the evidence that god doesn't exist

He can still exist if you want it. My point is, God has never ever made contact with the human species, ever! Therefore believe what you want and actually God may very well exist. However God is, has been and continues to be absent. There is definitely no proof whether He exists or not but I think we can make a reasonable assumption that He isn't here. That means none of what you read or profess about God, free will or anything associated with religion has any merit. It is an exercise in futility to pursue it.

If you have devoted your life to understanding the various scriptures available to you from every Bible the world has ever seen then I get your unwillingness to admit a situation exists where none of what is written about God means anything. We simply do not know. God, should He exist, has chosen not to influence our world with one single utterance or act that proves He exists. Essentially, that is free will, no divine influence.

Scriptures are what?...... They are ancient writings. How do you know the validity of what is written? How do you know God connected with the ancients? We are talking about our early ancestors for crying out loud. Wrong about most everything else but dead on with religious text? Not sure why they are held in high regard as the ultimate source of divine knowledge(another thread perhaps?).

 

[lightgigantic]

lightgigantic, I still haven't seen any answers from you on how it violates free will for god to only create people who he knows will not choose to sin. Or do you not believe that god knows what choices we will choose to make in advance?

what exactly would they be created with that would make it impossible for them not to sin?
(apart from a diminished free will ...)

 

[lightgigantic]

He can still exist if you want it. My point is, God has never ever made contact with the human species, ever! Therefore believe what you want and actually God may very well exist. However God is, has been and continues to be absent. There is definitely no proof whether He exists or not but I think we can make a reasonable assumption that He isn't here. That means none of what you read or profess about God, free will or anything associated with religion has any merit. It is an exercise in futility to pursue it.

actually your point is that you have never made contact with god. Whether that is the case for all persons in all circumstances is debatable ....

If you have devoted your life to understanding the various scriptures available to you from every Bible the world has ever seen then I get your unwillingness to admit a situation exists where none of what is written about God means anything. We simply do not know. God, should He exist, has chosen not to influence our world with one single utterance or act that proves He exists. Essentially, that is free will, no divine influence.

or alternatively, you haven't moved an iota from the general stance of material consciousness (ie non-contact with god etc)

Scriptures are what?...... They are ancient writings. How do you know the validity of what is written?

by practice
how else?

How do you know God connected with the ancients? We are talking about our early ancestors for crying out loud. Wrong about most everything else but dead on with religious text? Not sure why they are held in high regard as the ultimate source of divine knowledge(another thread perhaps?).

god is not relegated to ancient affairs

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

actually your point is that you have never made contact with god. Whether that is the case for all persons in all circumstances is debatable ....

By your standards, that's lame. Not worthy of standard comebacker.

or alternatively, you haven't moved an iota from the general stance of material consciousness (ie non-contact with god etc)

I think that's a given. Why should I?

These forums are great......try arguing religion in public or at a party

Scriptures are what?...... They are ancient writings. How do you know the validity of what is written? ”

by practice
how else?

Practice doesn't necessarily make you a star. Repetition is a better word in your case.

god is not relegated to ancient affairs

Yep, He's just everywhere these days

 

[lightgigantic]

Psychotic episode

Originally Posted by lightgigantic
actually your point is that you have never made contact with god. Whether that is the case for all persons in all circumstances is debatable ....
”
By your standards, that's lame. Not worthy of standard comebacker.

My point is, God has never ever made contact with the human species, ever!

ever wondered why (polished) atheists never make statements that are absolute negatives?

“
or alternatively, you haven't moved an iota from the general stance of material consciousness (ie non-contact with god etc)
”
I think that's a given. Why should I?

well you just made a statement about god's absolute non-interraction with humanity and this world

These forums are great......try arguing religion in public or at a party

public forums with educated people (irl) also make a great contribution

“
Scriptures are what?...... They are ancient writings. How do you know the validity of what is written? ”

by practice
how else?
”
Practice doesn't necessarily make you a star. Repetition is a better word in your case.

sure
there is nothing particularly unique about practice
it does however initiate one into the particular field of knowledge in question (just compare, say, mechanics who have and have never entered the field of practice)

“
god is not relegated to ancient affairs
”
Yep, He's just everywhere these days

for those who have the eyes to see, most definitely ...

 

[Nasor]

what exactly would they be created with that would make it impossible for them not to sin?
(apart from a diminished free will ...)

You don't seem to understand the objections. If you believe that people have free will and that god's omniscience allows him to know in advance whether or not certain people will choose to sin, the question is why would he choose to create people who he knows will choose to sin rather than people who he knows will not choose to sin? It's not a question of god taking away free will by making a person who isn't capable of sinning, it's a question of god already knowing in advance whether or not a person will sin (because he is omniscient and knows the future). So, lightgigantic[/i], I have two question for you:

1.Do you believe that god knows what decisions people will make in advance, even before he creates them?
2. If you believe that god knows what people will do even before he creates them, then why would he choose to create a person who he knows will do evil rather than a person who he knows will do good?

 

[greenberg]

Nasor,

What do you mean by "God creates a person"?
That out of nothing -poof!- God pulls out a person - with personality, traits, habits, particular looks, ...?

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

Psychotic episode

My point is, God has never ever made contact with the human species, ever!

ever wondered why (polished) atheists never make statements that are absolute negatives?

Probably because they have some doubt or they really care about you, possibly in a sympathetic manner. I care abiout you LG but I'm not the sympathetic type. You've dug your well and you're drinking from it.(kind of negative but a little more reserved...thought you'd like it)

well you just made a statement about god's absolute non-interraction with humanity and this world

So I did. You've made several about His interraction and I feel I at least deserve a chance to rebut it.

public forums with educated people (irl) also make a great contribution

On the internet? Come on LG, you can be anyone on the internet. If God types you an e-mail, signed it as God with a return e-mail address as Heaven@scripture.org or something like that, I would bet that you wouldn't believe it for one minute.

there is nothing particularly unique about practice
it does however initiate one into the particular field of knowledge in question (just compare, say, mechanics who have and have never entered the field of practice)

Exactly, nothing unique. I question philosophical knowledge as being on par with a mechanic's knowledge. I don't want LG touching my car and I would think if the mechanic has any religious inclinations then whatever he/she says on the subject wouldn't seem any less knowledgeable than that of a religious philosopher.

 

[Captain Kremmen]

goat.........goat

Shouldn't you be out somewhere spraying walls?

 

[lightgigantic]

You don't seem to understand the objections. If you believe that people have free will and that god's omniscience allows him to know in advance whether or not certain people will choose to sin, the question is why would he choose to create people who he knows will choose to sin rather than people who he knows will not choose to sin? It's not a question of god taking away free will by making a person who isn't capable of sinning, it's a question of god already knowing in advance whether or not a person will sin (because he is omniscient and knows the future). So, lightgigantic[/i], I have two question for you:

1.Do you believe that god knows what decisions people will make in advance, even before he creates them?
2. If you believe that god knows what people will do even before he creates them, then why would he choose to create a person who he knows will do evil rather than a person who he knows will do good?

There are a few problems because you are working with the idea of a god that is constrained by linear time ..... actually the understanding is that the living entity (and god too, of course) are eternal.

Katha Up 2.2.13 The Supreme Lord is eternal and the living beings are eternal. The Supreme Lord is cognizant and the living beings are cognizant. The difference is that the Supreme Lord is supplying all the necessities of life for the many other living entities.

What distinguishes a living entity from dull matter is that it has the same "cognizant" quality of god (namely, to possess free will). The distinction lies in the quantity of that free will (we are practically infinitesimal, and god is practically infinite).

So to try and approach the question of knowing something before it was created (when it is eternal) or creating something with or without the ability to sin (when it's mere existence forgoes such a possibility) is kind of difficult.

 

[lightgigantic]

Psychotic episode

My point is, God has never ever made contact with the human species, ever!

ever wondered why (polished) atheists never make statements that are absolute negatives?
”
Probably because they have some doubt or they really care about you,

probably because they are aware of the philosophical implications of making absolute negatives ....
“

well you just made a statement about god's absolute non-interraction with humanity and this world
”
So I did. You've made several about His interraction and I feel I at least deserve a chance to rebut it.

the difference is however that I am arguing that it is not an issue beyond perception (unlike, say, the case of absolute negatives ...)

“
public forums with educated people (irl) also make a great contribution
”
On the internet? Come on LG, you can be anyone on the internet. If God types you an e-mail, signed it as God with a return e-mail address as Heaven@scripture.org or something like that, I would bet that you wouldn't believe it for one minute.

probably because there are more valid means for determining god's existence (and how he interacts with this world etc etc) ... all available from discerning the nature of scripture and persons who practice accordingly of course

“

there is nothing particularly unique about practice
it does however initiate one into the particular field of knowledge in question (just compare, say, mechanics who have and have never entered the field of practice)
”
Exactly, nothing unique. I question philosophical knowledge as being on par with a mechanic's knowledge.

and that's where the problem lies.

If you think that the entire length and breadth of all issues in theism is simply about philosophy, you are gravely mistaken

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

probably because there are more valid means for determining god's existence (and how he interacts with this world etc etc) ... all available from discerning the nature of scripture and persons who practice accordingly of course

Yes of course, discerning scripture over God actually being here is so much more determining.

If you think that the entire length and breadth of all issues in theism is simply about philosophy, you are gravely mistaken

Always a gravely type reference, almost threatening.

If philosophy is your life then it's a significant extra. This theist vs atheist struggle definitely means more to you than I. A life's choice followed by devotion to studying it cannot ever be deemed worthless, this I understand. I have no such fear of being wrong. You do have more at stake than I.

 

[lightgigantic]

You do have more at stake than I.

yes, I agree

 

[Nasor]

So to try and approach the question of knowing something before it was created (when it is eternal) or creating something with or without the ability to sin (when it's mere existence forgoes such a possibility) is kind of difficult.

You believe that all the souls that will ever be born are already in existence?

 

[lightgigantic]

You believe that all the souls that will ever be born are already in existence?

yes - you can hardly indicate a square inch of this world that isn't jam packed full of life (what to speak of when you start entertaining notions of the spiritual world)