Philosophical/psychological dealing with uncertainty

Man, when push comes to shove you sure can talk about reality in absolute terms.

no i was talking about the fact that reality is what you make it, sort of. questions of attitude are hardly absolute, but I have my two cents to force on you. lol.

hey I know what i am and in certain areas I think I know some stuff that can be useful to other people, and i like talknig about things because honestly I feel like I have sort of a gift for figuring this stuff out. I've just always thought about it, and have worked a bunch of retarded stuff out, so I tell you about it. I think it's kind of cool, and might be relevant in more than my own perspective, but I can't say that it is until whomever else hears it agrees. Otherwise it's just talking stupid shit, and well that's what I do so myah.

Not that I disagree.

Oh yeah sure.

Not that your position and others have to be mutually exclusive.

YES! I must win! Lol. They must be mutually exclusive and my points all have to be objectively correct or I'll egg all your houses - Tping them even, perhaps! Okay well not really as you people don't exist and stuff... I mean, in reality - to me. Objectively.

Cute family by the way.

Ah shucks. Kiddos are really cool.... for now. I'm just pre-arming myself for the angsty years to come... well probably to come.
 
This is a point we have mentioned. The ways in which uncertainty can be an avoidance of life.

Well that's an awefully devious means of avoidance - to be fearful and all I mean.

Seems to me more that this particular flavor is just plain negativity, which can come from numerous sources. You could call it avoidance, incongruence, lacking capacity or just a personal chemistry that tends to yield negativity.

What I find fascinating is that thought... IS the changing chemistry of the brain so via thought, brain chemistry is at least somewhat subject to will. We generally unconsciously choose what we take from experience - which we may not realize colors all forthcoming experience that can be constrewed by the mind to be of similar context. Bah that gets too complicated for me at the moment.
 
no i was talking about the fact that reality is what you make it, sort of.

You've gone from being mildly skeptical or advocating a tentative certainties to being a mystic with a qualifier.

I realize you are writing off the cuff and rather fast - or it's my guess - but on some level I am wondering if your tentativeness is not part of some meta-certainty, perhaps like the one asserted above.
 
Well that's an awefully devious means of avoidance - to be fearful and all I mean.

Seems to me more that this particular flavor is just plain negativity, which can come from numerous sources. You could call it avoidance, incongruence, lacking capacity or just a personal chemistry that tends to yield negativity.

What I find fascinating is that thought... IS the changing chemistry of the brain so via thought, brain chemistry is at least somewhat subject to will. We generally unconsciously choose what we take from experience - which we may not realize colors all forthcoming experience that can be constrewed by the mind to be of similar context. Bah that gets too complicated for me at the moment.

I like Sheldrake's notions of habit - both in individuals and in the universe at large.

I also find the idea of imprinting useful.

I think there is leeway in relation to habit and imprinting. I have even seen this in animals.
 
No, that is not exactly my point.
I'm saying people do avoid more pressing problems and instead focus on undecidable problems, but I have not qualified those pressing problems as solvable. It's because those pressing problems seem unsolvable that a person might prefer to avoid them.


Belief --------------uncertainty-------------belief returned/modified (transformation/doubt)

Belief---------------uncertainty-------------belief --------------uncertainty (response to external challenges/examples that don’t seem to fit/suffering-the natural ebb and flow of belief)

Belief---------------uncertainty-------------disbelief or new belief

I think if these processes modify action all the time we have a problem.
If we do not know what to do day to day.
If we do not know what we want to do, day to day.

We can be uncertain and explore it. But if this uncertainty disrupts our decision-making process or makes it suffering, then we have a problem.

I think this becomes more likely the more we allow abstraction to control our day to day choices rather than body – ie. what feels right or what fits us.

I realize this was gestural.
 
You've gone from being mildly skeptical or advocating a tentative certainties to being a mystic with a qualifier.

I like to change it up. I amuse myself.

I realize you are writing off the cuff and rather fast - or it's my guess - but on some level I am wondering if your tentativeness is not part of some meta-certainty, perhaps like the one asserted above.

Well, it's sort of difficult to say idnit? I'm not wholly certain what you mean by "meta-certainty". I've tried to explained the relationships as I see them and the term you're using just doesn't fit in what I see. Perhaps you can splain yourself. I want to know what 'meta-certainty' means in terms of mind, concepts, contexts and such. What causes is, is it a useful thing to define, etc.

Are you defining it as a defense mechanism akin to denial? Hepp a brotha out.

What if it's rather... THIS:

I don't need to be certain about anything, that's okay to me... in fact, it's a great source of entertainment.

"how it seems to me"

that's plenty. I'm a big guy. there's a whole lot of me to seem.
 
I like to change it up. I amuse myself.
See now, perhaps that was facetious on your part, but I like to and find it effective to change it up. Not to amuse myself - maybe on occasion - but because it feels right. Sometimes to be certain. Sometime to be tentative.

Well, it's sort of difficult to say idnit? I'm not wholly certain what you mean by "meta-certainty".
'We can only be tentatively sure of things'
'It is only from our perspective that....'
'I know I might always be wrong'

These seem absolute. But meta-
That's what I meant.

I don't need to be certain about anything, that's okay to me... in fact, it's a great source of entertainment.

Wait until your children are teenagers. Seriously. I think you will find you want certainty. Certainty about them. Certainty about 'parenting' - sorry, that's a horrible word. And beyond wanting: I think they will press you to where you find you are certain about certain things, and will not tolerate hearing it is simply your perspective and a limited one. You may at that point exert authority and say you realize you may be wrong but you are boss, but I doubt you will really believe this. (you could see this as a covert warning about revealing your philosophy to them)
 
Greenberg,
to follow up my last post.
When uncertainty is painful or stagnating
perhaps that is the moment to look
at what one thinks is at stake
how fast it seems one MUST make a choice
how much must be processed consciously (right now)
does it relate somehow to self-image
how much is the past or past relationships part of the pressure
(are we worried about how long we have been 'wrong')
and see if any assumptions we have there
are driving this to unpleasant levels.

A racist in a racist organization who becomes uncertain blacks are less human than whites
is actually (potentially from his position) adding to world suffering - if he continues to hand out pamphlets.

Most of the time this kind of belief-----------}action has less immediate consequences, especially philosophical issues.

To process immediately with the mind, rather than exploring in some more holistic way, and pressuring oneself to think one's way through things that may require more experiential 'information' seems like part of the problem with unnecessary uncertainty suffering.
 
And I didn't miss any? Sweeeeeeeeeet.

Well, there is more of them ...


Although I cannot understand how a person can accept uncertainty when it comes to something important in their lives.

I cannot understand how one could not (actually I can but it's odd to me). Uncertainty is apparently rather real. Accepting it is like breathing. You don't have to think about it, it's just there.

?

I would think that "acceptance" is about being allright with something, not be concerned about it.
Acceptance is something one actively does.

Can you really say statments like "I don't have a clue what the meaning of my life is, but I'm okay with that, I accept it" or "I'm not sure whether it is possible to make an end to suffering, but I'm okay with that, I accept it".


One's mental comfort doesn't really reside in it. Mental comfort is emotional.

This is odd. You seem to be separating the "mental" and the "emotional". I don't see how there could ever really be a difference between them.


Hmm.. I think you can be mature and unhappy.

To me, "unhappy" and "mature" are mutually exclusive.


How can one be uncertain about the meaning of one's life, and still be happy?

By having a value function that allows such a calculation eh?

And how did they arrive at that value function?
Do they treat it as a given, as part of "who they really are", and not as something created by one's own deliberate effort?


Such can be accomplished only by denial, or by immersing oneself in distractions and comforts (which is, in effect, another form of denial).

You know the north pole exist and stuff right? If you don't spend all your time thinking about it, does that mean you're denying it?

The issue here is being uncertain about things that are important in one's life.


Nihilism, solipsism, extreme skepticism seem the most obvious candidates.

All of which to me result in infinitely recursive regression - which nullifies any potential utility to me.

I can see that.
 
What I find fascinating is that thought... IS the changing chemistry of the brain so via thought, brain chemistry is at least somewhat subject to will. We generally unconsciously choose what we take from experience - which we may not realize colors all forthcoming experience that can be constrewed by the mind to be of similar context. Bah that gets too complicated for me at the moment.

Lucky you. :bugeye:

Had you thought through the line of reasoning you started above about brain chemistry, you'd sooner or later arrive at an "angsty uncertainty" too.
 
Tell me more about this. A link perhaps, please?

As far as Sheldrake:
http://www.sheldrake.org/papers/Morphic/morphic_intro.html
and his home page
http://www.sheldrake.org/homepage.html

as far as the leeway I was speaking from my own experiences.

Metacognition is one place I think there is leeway. We see the habit, we recognize the problems associated with it and it the little cusp afforded by meta-cognition we sift around for:
alternatives
roots to the poor choice we are making
faulty logic - if the problem is blessed with only such an easy little pebble in the gears as this
resources that are not direct alternatives to the behavior or attitude - which I think is a kind of behavior - but ease the compulsion behind the habit.

As far as animals:
I had a horse that was very affected by my mood. He would get skittish in ways I did not like. This was especially true if I was angry - not at him.
I explained this too him several times - me making human sounds (words) which I do to focus my communication, but it seemed to have no effect. He took my mood personally - something humans do too. This made me irritated. At first it had nothing to do with the horse - perhaps another rider did something, a driver, perhaps I thought of something at work, etc. Then he would react and then, against my intentions, I would get angry for my mood suddenly putting him on the defensive.

Whatever you may think of my maturity...

One day he just did not react to my anger. He just did not get bothered by it. And let me tell you I praised him.

Somehow he, despite the fact that my irritation at others still on occasion shifted over to him, grokked it somehow that it really was not about him. It never happened again. Not once.

I still was around him on occasion in an irritated state, but he never again took it personally.

Proof for you: yah, I can hardly expect people to take this as proof. I have other stories with other animals, but these will hardly convince, let alone how skeptics will view the story. I relay it just to show what I meant. My sense was and is that animals can shift out of habitual patterns.
 
sowhatifit'sdark -

The links you provided and your examples are interesting me, thanks. I don't have enough time now, but I'll get back to you on this.
 
See now, perhaps that was facetious on your part, but I like to and find it effective to change it up. Not to amuse myself - maybe on occasion - but because it feels right. Sometimes to be certain. Sometime to be tentative.

I'm reactive really, and mostly just blurt out exactly what I'm thinking, basically "think typing". Contexts switch up as I'm navigating the concepts.

'We can only be tentatively sure of things'
'It is only from our perspective that....'

In the sense that we can't objectively validate, to which you agreed somewhere.

'I know I might always be wrong'

Internally verified, but with respect to a lacking capacity for objective validation.

These seem absolute. But meta-
That's what I meant.

Ok.

Wait until your children are teenagers. Seriously. I think you will find you want certainty. Certainty about them.

But I'm quite certain about many things that of course could be, based on context - horribly wrong. Again I'm quite sure they physically actually exist and that I'm their dad. I'm quite sure how old they are... I'm quite sure I remember being there when they were born.

To me, given the stuff I've said throughout our interactions - certainty is about cost. What are the negative possibilities of me being wrong about any of that stuff based on my personal experiences with them? Seeing as how I remember quite vividly having attended their births for example, what is the cost if I'm wrong about it? It's part of me. To me, it was real. It happened. I was there. Though in some other context these memories might be wholly incorrect - I have yet to personally experience it. There is no down side to my assertion as I see it. The larger question of "absoluteness" has little bearing on how real it seems to me.

Certainty about 'parenting' - sorry, that's a horrible word.

Perhaps then you're not a parent. There is no certainty in parenting. You do the best you can at the time and move forward. Oh sorry lol I just realize you caught that ahead of time, well yeah... it's true though. Perhaps I lack the language to adequately describe all this shit. Maybe I'll delve into that a bit in my next response to something I saw you say in a post I think I owe you.

And beyond wanting: I think they will press you to where you find you are certain about certain things, and will not tolerate hearing it is simply your perspective and a limited one. You may at that point exert authority and say you realize you may be wrong but you are boss, but I doubt you will really believe this. (you could see this as a covert warning about revealing your philosophy to them)

No like I said, I'm already certain about probably way too many things... but I do not hold my certainty as absolute. It's simple "what i have to work with", and work with it I shall. All this hoobajooba about knowing that I indulge in is about playing with a system, trying to understand it. I enjoy this stuff. Ifeel compelled to explore it because it's what I've always done. Because it's what I've always done, and I've recieved quite a bit of praise for my insight (not all from just me)... I've grown to think myself somewhat gifted in the area. Whether or not this is "objectively true" is pretty much irrelevant to me. It is as true as I know truth to be, and that's the best I can do.

Hmm... I just realized:

I think certainty is a subjective term. Yah. So yeah I'm certain about things a lot. The problem I have is that the term is often used or at least seems to be used as I read it as "absolute certainty" meaning a positive statement as to objective status.
 
sowhatifit'sdark -

The links you provided and your examples are interesting me, thanks. I don't have enough time now, but I'll get back to you on this.

Just to add to the backlog, I thought about the issue more in depth and wrote the following.

4 approaches to problematic uncertainty

1) meta-cognitive/cognitive
Two related processes to uncertainty are worry and rumination. A lot of psychological studies show that excessive use of these processes can lead to severe anxiety and/or severe depression. At a meta-cognitive level if you have ideas about these processes such as

They are uncontrollable
They are necessary for me to perform well
If I don’t do them terrible things will happen
If I do do them terrible things will happen


You are more likely to develop problems from these processes, AND, I would guess,these processes would become more central coping strategies, when confronted with uncertainty.

So one approach on the meta-cognitive level is to change these beliefs about worry and rumination. Also one must be able to feel, recognize when ‘thinking’ and ‘reasoning’ about issues one is uncertain about has slid into rumination and worry.

We also on this level need to look at the beliefs we have about the ability to solve the problem ‘rationally’ or by thinking, at the importance of finding the solution, of the importance of find certainty immediately, of the effectiveness of other ways of finding certainty or perhaps allowing certainty, and so on.

Our minds also have only so much attentional resources. If we are panicked and focused on getting the solution we often cannot ALSO focus on the issue metacognitively – by this I mean, for example, examining ourselves to see if we are ruminating and worrying, checking to see if the beliefs we have about the ‘threats’ involved in the issue, or in not solving the issue, are real, and so on.

Meditation, for example, can improve our attentional resources. Some traditions do this by distancing the observer from the ‘objects’ inner and outer. Some do this by immersion and expansion of the observer who experiences both the objects – thoughts, sensations- and the space in which these occur as if these all were the observer/container/participator. (I tend more towards the latter approach.)

If you increase the attention resources, you increase the chance that you are not locked on the object of uncertainty only and can check assumptions, feelings, etc. simultaneously and also makes choices about the strategy you are using to deal with the issue.

With this attention we can also look at how we cope with uncertainty: do we punish ourselves – think we are stupid, inadequate for example - for not being able to find the solution – perhaps that others can or seem to be able to.

Note: this approach focuses on cognitive processes as they unfold.

2) Emotional/past event focused approaches.

If we are having a hard time with uncertainty then the chances are the uncertainty state is associated with earlier events or relationship dynamics where uncertainty was an component AND there were other unpleasant qualities.

So the whole see if the feelings remind you of something else – from your childhood – or a relationship you've had. (actually some of this can be found in meditation, especially, I have found, with the second method mentioned above) The older events can then be processed in the present. Feelings that could not be expressed can be expressed now, support from others can be taken in, thoughts that got imprinted in the event/dynamic – ‘I am stupid, I am disgusting' – can be chewed on and replaced – in fact cognitive and meta-cognitive tools can be brought to bear on the issue.

Catharsis may be a component.

Real life confrontations – letters, for example – can also be useful if the person is still alive.

Also an inventory to see how the dynamics and self-image issues related to the event affect and have effected relationships, choices, performance throughout the life.

There are many psychotherapeutic approaches here. Often coupled with issues like this are phobias of certain emotions where the gradual acceptance of these emotions can also de-charge the person when confronted with certain stimuli – given the context: events that make the person wonder about the philosophical issue, thoughts about the issue, failures to understand other people’s explanations, ie. anything that stimulates the harsh end of coping strategies to uncertainty: worry and rumination. Given that the topic is philosophical uncertainty, it would be good to see what events/relationships related directly to the person’s mind and mental abilities. Possibilities include things that made the person feel stupid, inadequate, but also events and relationships (people) who gave the person the impression that thinking was everything, that thinking was bad, that you have to be sure of things, that uncertainty is bad, that you shouldn’t think for yourself, that you should only think for yourself, that you cannot trust your perceptions and so on. Sometimes a single relationship, for example, a parent, can given off contradictory messages about thinking.

Situations where the child's mind was overloaded - certainly any of the traumas we generally think of, but not at all limited to these. For example situations where confusing things were said to the child, perhaps over and over or very complicated things that were stressed in ways that made them seem very important, but no time was allowed for real cognition to take place. Or no questions were allowed. Or none of the emotions set off by the 'information' were allowed to be expressed.

The important thing here is to go back to original sources of the current extra emotional charge and express and accept these emotions (and others repressed at the time) rather than continuing to bring them to bear on the in the present philosophical or decision issue.

At the very least old charge will interfere with the ability to reason effectively and seem to reinforce negative self-appraisals and impossibility of finding solutions that contribute to rumination and worry.

It might also be found that the compulsion to find the answer, especially in the approaches now taken, will lessen.

3) Finding new approaches:
(I think an argument can be made that this is a part of the meta-cognitive approach. The individual decides that thinking and verbal approaches are being overemphasized and other approaches unnecessarily de-emphasized)

Butler, Wells, and Dewisk-1995. A study was done of people who watched a film about a gruesome workplace accident. It was a disturbing film. Three groups watched the film. One group was told to calm themselves down after the film. One group was told to imagine the images in the film. And the last group was told to worry in verbal terms about the events in the film.

This last group was vastly more likely than the other two to suffer intrusive images from the film over the next few days. (I think this is interesting because many might assume that re-seeing the film in one’s head might be worse. We are being traumatized again. But actually reseeding the film allows us, the body, to complete its reactions to the stimuli.)

Further testing to understand the mechanisms of worry incubation effects on intrusive images indicated that worry

Blocks emotional processing! and produces ‘tagging’.
Tagging refers to the fact that worry is a complicated process with many different cognitive and emotional facets. These wide range of facets get tagged with the stress from the film. We now associate more things with the gruesome images. More things remind us of them, even ‘things’ in our minds.

To me this emphasizes the importance of
1) determining the nature of our thinking about what makes us uncertain: is it worry or rumination.
2) Allowing emotional reactions to be coupled directly to the original stimulus rather than new things – see above in approach number 2.
3) Considering that rational, verbal approaches to dealing with uncertainty may not be the best ones since they are most likely to bleed into worry.

Other approaches to philosophical issues might include anything experiential that could contribute information about the issue. Meditation, interpersonal interactions – not involving rational discussion of the issue – cross cultural experiences, time in nature, time with animals, or any of the various rituals we have created – both in secular and religious contexts for altering consciousness or changing our experience of the world – hypnosis, ecstatic practices, shamanism, image work, focusing, dreamwork, lucid dreaming, all sorts of activities in nature and so on. (this list shows my biases, there are untold other approaches)

The shift is away from trying to rationally deduce the answers or rely on our mind’s limited ability to simulate and ‘test’ hypotheses ‘inside’ us, toward experiencing ourselves and the world in new, broader, different ways. That this will give us vast amounts of new information and perhaps make the simulations in our minds more effective so that later, when we reapproach the issue, even if we do not solve it, we experience a sense of change (even progress) give the richer resources we have. (rather than hitting the same walls and stimulating worry and negative self-appraisals)

We might also find that the issue itself has shifted or dissolved. We might also find that we are engaged in life and that some of the charge we had about solving the issue was actually desire to more fully participate in life and we thought we needed to find the right way in our heads first.

4) Participating in Life more fully

Is there something else we would really rather be doing than dealing with the issue of uncertainty but we are afraid to try it?

I think this one is pretty self-explanatory, but requires introspection and a willingness to explore oneself.

Rational discussion and thinking can of course resolve uncertainty (as can emotional discussion). But if it starts to seem problematic perhaps one of these other approaches needs to be looked at as at least complements.
 
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I'm reactive really, and mostly just blurt out exactly what I'm thinking, basically "think typing". Contexts switch up as I'm navigating the concepts.
cool. I'll do that too.

To me, given the stuff I've said throughout our interactions - certainty is about cost. What are the negative possibilities of me being wrong about any of that stuff based on my personal experiences with them? Seeing as how I remember quite vividly having attended their births for example, what is the cost if I'm wrong about it? It's part of me. To me, it was real. It happened. I was there. Though in some other context these memories might be wholly incorrect - I have yet to personally experience it. There is no down side to my assertion as I see it. The larger question of "absoluteness" has little bearing on how real it seems to me.
Alien abductees.



No like I said, I'm already certain about probably way too many things... but I do not hold my certainty as absolute.
I think this distinction might be meaningless for everyone around you in relation to you. This was the direction I was heading with the teenager issue. I think people overestimate the importance of the tip of the iceberg's * next to the way they are.
Ifeel compelled to explore it because it's what I've always done.
Explore implies into new turf to me. What new turf have you found, entered?

As for me some of my thoughts from the cognitive therapy side of things has been new turf for me.



I think certainty is a subjective term. Yah. So yeah I'm certain about things a lot. The problem I have is that the term is often used or at least seems to be used as I read it as "absolute certainty" meaning a positive statement as to objective status
I would say my son has intrinsic value and never look back.
 

Thank you for this! I didn't know about this author.

Distingushing between laws and habits - I find this very useful!
It's rather Buddhist, actually.


Metacognition is one place I think there is leeway. We see the habit, we recognize the problems associated with it and it the little cusp afforded by meta-cognition we sift around for:
alternatives
roots to the poor choice we are making
faulty logic - if the problem is blessed with only such an easy little pebble in the gears as this
resources that are not direct alternatives to the behavior or attitude - which I think is a kind of behavior - but ease the compulsion behind the habit.

Yes. And it is important that we recognize something as a habit - because with that comes the notion that change is possible.
If we would see things in terms of laws, it would leave us quite helpless.


I had a horse that was very affected by my mood.
...
I still was around him on occasion in an irritated state, but he never again took it personally.

Perhaps he is just very sensitive to your states, and that sensitivity doesn't necessarily have something to do with how he was treated before. It could be that in time, he learned you don't mean harm to him, this is why he didn't react to your anger anymore.

I find animals are very sensitive to human states, whereas humans are often not nearly as sensitive to animal states. Somehow, many people often think that animals are nothing but fluffy mindless creatures.

Here are two examples of humans and cats, humans being oblivious and disrespectful to the animal's state - but beware, it's not a nice watch:

Angry Cat Attacks Reporter
and
Angry cat


My sense was and is that animals can shift out of habitual patterns.

I think so too.
 
Greenberg,
to follow up my last post.
When uncertainty is painful or stagnating
perhaps that is the moment to look
at what one thinks is at stake
how fast it seems one MUST make a choice
how much must be processed consciously (right now)
does it relate somehow to self-image
how much is the past or past relationships part of the pressure
(are we worried about how long we have been 'wrong')
and see if any assumptions we have there
are driving this to unpleasant levels.

I'll print this out, it requires a lot of attention.
 
Thank you for this! I didn't know about this author.

Distingushing between laws and habits - I find this very useful!
It's rather Buddhist, actually.
He is actually exploring whether physical constants are merely habits and can change.



Yes. And it is important that we recognize something as a habit - because with that comes the notion that change is possible.
If we would see things in terms of laws, it would leave us quite helpless.

We are constantly being told directly and indirectly that this is the way things are. mplicit and explicit messages in our thoughts, in advertising, in all media, in eduction, in religion, from science....The way things are. When perhaps it is the way things are now or were then or are here and not there and so on. I have pushed on 'the way things are' and found it to be vastly less rigid than it is supposed to be. I also wonder if all this reminding has a magical effect - I am not emphasizing supernatural, but more hitherto unknown to science effects - on 'the way things are'.


Perhaps he is just very sensitive to your states, and that sensitivity doesn't necessarily have something to do with how he was treated before. It could be that in time, he learned you don't mean harm to him, this is why he didn't react to your anger anymore.

He also lost the reaction in relation to others. (of course I can come up with alternative explanations for this. But I do know from the former, very sweet, owners that he had this problem from very early.)

Here are two examples of humans and cats, humans being oblivious and disrespectful to the animal's state - but beware, it's not a nice watch:

Angry Cat Attacks Reporter
and
Angry cat
I watched the first one. She went past cues that would have had me setting that cat on the floor a long time before. In fact I am surprised the cat waited so long.
 
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