Philosophical/psychological dealing with uncertainty

[greenberg]

I'd rather talk about the phenomenon in general first.

It is a broad topic, yes.

It just occured to me that I really think most people deal with uncertainty in one of a few ways.

- forget about it
- worry
- acceptance
- denial
- ? what did I miss.

This is the psychological side right?

Yes, this would be the coping mechanisms and the defence mechanisms.

Although I cannot understand how a person can accept uncertainty when it comes to something important in their lives.

It is said sometimes that a mature person is able to accept the uncertainty of life and live happily.
I don't see how this could be possible, though. How can one be uncertain about the meaning of one's life, and still be happy? Such can be accomplished only by denial, or by immersing oneself in distractions and comforts (which is, in effect, another form of denial).

Okay, so on the philosophical side we have most notoriously the phenomenon of recursive regression no?

Yes, this is what seems to happen when we reach an impasse.

What else?

Nihilism, solipsism, extreme skepticism seem the most obvious candidates.

 

[sowhatifit'sdark]

Yes ... this just doesn't work for me either.
Even though people sometimes expect it from me.

Uncertainty is a trigger. We want that table set. People will stand up in someone else's living room and adjust the tilt of a photo on the wall before realizing perhaps it was not their place to judge horizontal in another person's home.

Your uncertainty is for them like watching a nervous hand try to thread a needle.

But if they take it on themselves to thread it for you then they have a nervous hand they need to set free.

I think one of the most destructive ideas is that progression will always head to greater certainty.

And that anything that reveals pain is causing pain.

 

[sowhatifit'sdark]

something caught my eye as i rapidly scrolled. data was encapsulated as...."teenage crush"

for real?

/cackle

Nations have been destroyed for less.

 

[sowhatifit'sdark]

Although I cannot understand how a person can accept uncertainty when it comes to something important in their lives.

It is said sometimes that a mature person is able to accept the uncertainty of life and live happily.
I don't see how this could be possible, though. How can one be uncertain about the meaning of one's life, and still be happy? Such can be accomplished only by denial, or by immersing oneself in distractions and comforts (which is, in effect, another form of denial).

I agree with everything you say here and yet I wonder if there is something underlying it I don't agree with. I wouldn't have said what you said so it made me wonder.

Perhaps there is a certainty in the body - that's the best way I can put it - that I carries me along despite the head not understanding how the issue is resolved. Sometimes later I 'get it' in a head way, but my head, despite stray urges to get worked up, has learned to trust the 'body' in the interim.

Vague. Incomplete. Maybe good to note. I'll come back to it.

 

[Non-Logical-Idea-Guy]

Maybe this seems 'out there' as an example, but I think such simple emotional issues play out in even the grandest seeming philosophical interactions and explorations.

can't prove that either way

mmy point is basically the same as yours if you look at it

you say that we like to focus on things we can't be sure of to block out more pressing issues - I'd be suprised if this was a biological thing so why else do we ignore issues that we need to deal with and focus on those we can't... cause we don't want to face up to those issues, we want to protect our mental wellbeing - correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[greenberg]

why else do we ignore issues that we need to deal with and focus on those we can't... cause we don't want to face up to those issues, we want to protect our mental wellbeing

It could be that we don't want to face up to those issues.

But many times we simply don't know how to handle them, this is why we avoid them, seek to distract ourselves from them.
Dealing with problems takes time, effort, knowledge, skills, concentration. And when we don't have these, we can't handle problems.

 

[greenberg]

I think one of the most destructive ideas is that progression will always head to greater certainty.

... but it doesn't.
One throws oneself into solving a problem - and a dozen new ones come up!

And that anything that reveals pain is causing pain.

Attributing causes is not always easy.

 

[Non-Logical-Idea-Guy]

It could be that we don't want to face up to those issues.

But many times we simply don't know how to handle them, this is why we avoid them, seek to distract ourselves from them.
Dealing with problems takes time, effort, knowledge, skills, concentration. And when we don't have these, we can't handle problems.

but if you "dont know how" thenisnt that uncertainty? People that genuinely dont know things that can improve their daily lives generally at least attempt to find out from external sources. I think it is more likely people don't want to face up to those problems

 

[greenberg]

but if you "dont know how" thenisnt that uncertainty?

Of course it is.

There's the uncertainty that arises when first realizing the problem.
But more uncertainty can arise once has attempted to deal with the problem, and the remedies have failed.

People that genuinely dont know things that can improve their daily lives generally at least attempt to find out from external sources.

There are problems that aren't so difficult to solve. One can learn to work with the computer, cook, paint etc.

And then there are problems -usually philosophical and psychological problems- that are very complex, very straining. Questions about the meaning of life, free will ... People have been dealing with these for millenia, and often with no resolution.

I think it is more likely people don't want to face up to those problems

Why wouldn't they?

 

[Non-Logical-Idea-Guy]

can u just stick to one argument plz?

u said that people focus on uncertain/undecidable problems to avoid solvable more pressing issues. You then say that these issues are uncertain too.... so if you are going to defend by saying its liek infinite digress then this isnt going anywhere.

you pretty much just proved my point with ur 4th para - ppl have TRIED TO SOLVEE THEM (read my post and notice the word "attempt") and if they are trying to solve them then they are not avoiding them they are facing them head on.

why wouldnt they face up to them? so every problem which you think you know the answer to you have solved not even taking into account all sorts of damage they might sustain due to facing it

 

[greenberg]

u said that people focus on uncertain/undecidable problems to avoid solvable more pressing issues.

No, that is not exactly my point.
I'm saying people do avoid more pressing problems and instead focus on undecidable problems, but I have not qualified those pressing problems as solvable. It's because those pressing problems seem unsolvable that a person might prefer to avoid them.

 

[greenberg]

Depending on the gravity of an uncertain prospect:

Philosophy and psychology will fall together, affect each other, pull on each other, depend on each other, embrace each other, collude.

Philosophy will darken. Personality will darken. And when personality darkens, well, much becomes permissible—thus philosophy will have it; you know, "beyond good and evil" and all that jazz.

Sigh.

Very much noted. Thanks.

 

[Non-Logical-Idea-Guy]

No, that is not exactly my point.
I'm saying people do avoid more pressing problems and instead focus on undecidable problems, but I have not qualified those pressing problems as solvable. It's because those pressing problems seem unsolvable that a person might prefer to avoid them.

ok i mistook what you said sorry.

 

[wesmorris]

Yes, this would be the coping mechanisms and the defence mechanisms.

And I didn't miss any? Sweeeeeeeeeet.

Although I cannot understand how a person can accept uncertainty when it comes to something important in their lives.

I cannot understand how one could not (actually I can but it's odd to me). Uncertainty is apparently rather real. Accepting it is like breathing. You don't have to think about it, it's just there. One's mental comfort doesn't really reside in it. Mental comfort is emotional.

It is said sometimes that a mature person is able to accept the uncertainty of life and live happily.

Hmm.. I think you can be mature and unhappy. So I think it's really more like "if a happy person realizes the uncertainty in life they're still happy" that baffles you, as you've learned to obsess over a fear of lacking control or something related. Worse, it's "unhappy fear" (not like riding a roller coaster), as apparently whatever has stuck this relationship in your mind has profoundly affected your perspective.

I don't see how this could be possible, though.

Then you're in denial, as I'd guess you see it all the time.

How can one be uncertain about the meaning of one's life, and still be happy?

By having a value function that allows such a calculation eh?

Such can be accomplished only by denial, or by immersing oneself in distractions and comforts (which is, in effect, another form of denial).

You know the north pole exist and stuff right? If you don't spend all your time thinking about it, does that mean you're denying it?

Pardon.. but if you bear with me I might be able to help you understand how it could happen.

Yes, this is what seems to happen when we reach an impasse.

Hmm... yeah, even on our own! Hehe.

Nihilism, solipsism, extreme skepticism seem the most obvious candidates.

All of which to me result in infinitely recursive regression - which nullifies any potential utility to me.

 

[wesmorris]

Depending on the gravity of an uncertain prospect:

Philosophy and psychology will fall together, affect each other, pull on each other, depend on each other, embrace each other, collude.

Philosophy will darken. Personality will darken. And when personality darkens, well, much becomes permissible—thus philosophy will have it; you know, "beyond good and evil" and all that jazz.

Sigh.

Surely you mean a negative uncertain prospect, as without it your post seems rather angsty.

And you have illuminated your problem perhaps, right there... by choosing to focus on the negative without even stating it or perhaps even realizing it.

Seriously and at the risk of being ghey, to be fair in your analysis you have to allow for both aspects of potential no?

 

[wesmorris]

wow damn I was just reading through the responses above and people all agreeing how horrible the realization of uncertainty must be, you bunch of angsty bitches! lol. look into the face of a baby for chrissake and see how they deal with it! it's fucking beautiful. YOU FUCKING ARE! YOU EXIST! Make the fucking most of it goddamnit - love something for chrissake.

if there were no uncertainty - all would be lost - literally. there would be no reason to speak, no reason to fuck, no reason to live, you nihistic fucks! lol. sorry for some reason that shit was cracking me up. seriously.. get over it kids. or if you're all just kids, there's a reasonable possibility that you'll just get over it if you live for several more years.

 

[wesmorris]

logic is a transform, a tool... but people somehow learn to use it as a razor for wrist slitting.

 

[sowhatifit'sdark]

can't prove that either way

mmy point is basically the same as yours if you look at it

you say that we like to focus on things we can't be sure of to block out more pressing issues - I'd be suprised if this was a biological thing so why else do we ignore issues that we need to deal with and focus on those we can't... cause we don't want to face up to those issues, we want to protect our mental wellbeing - correct me if I'm wrong.

There is more than one possibility.
We can do it to protect ourselves in a certain period of time where that is a good strategy.
We can do it to avoid actually being healthy.
We can do it to maintain a self-image.
and so on.

I think what you said above is true, but limited. It can be a way of avoiding well being also. If you expand your definition to apparent well-being I am more open to it.

 

[sowhatifit'sdark]

wow damn I was just reading through the responses above and people all agreeing how horrible the realization of uncertainty must be, you bunch of angsty bitches! lol. look into the face of a baby for chrissake and see how they deal with it! it's fucking beautiful. YOU FUCKING ARE! YOU EXIST! Make the fucking most of it goddamnit - love something for chrissake.

if there were no uncertainty - all would be lost - literally. there would be no reason to speak, no reason to fuck, no reason to live, you nihistic fucks! lol. sorry for some reason that shit was cracking me up. seriously.. get over it kids. or if you're all just kids, there's a reasonable possibility that you'll just get over it if you live for several more years.

Man, when push comes to shove you sure can talk about reality in absolute terms.

Not that I disagree.
Not that your position and others have to be mutually exclusive.
Cute family by the way.

 

[sowhatifit'sdark]

logic is a transform, a tool... but people somehow learn to use it as a razor for wrist slitting.

This is a point we have mentioned. The ways in which uncertainty can be an avoidance of life.