Petitions from 20 States Requesting to Secede from the United States

[Asguard]

This does look like a hissy-fit to me. I'm sure most people haven't thought what leaving the Union would be like. Nevertheless, it doesn't surprise me in the least, I've said before I can see the Union falling apart by 2030 and I've read as much by professors of population studies saying the same.

IMO it is wonderful that the notion of "leaving" the Union is moving into the public discourse and thus public consciousness because it brings into focus the role of the State.


Is it ironic there's a movie coming out about Lincoln right now (isn't there?)? Lincoln was a product of his time. During his time the German State was coalescing as well as a Nation of "Japan" was being forged (both from smaller States). If you read some of Lincoln's comments prior to the Civil War, he actually supports States having the right to leave the Union (I wonder if that will come across in the movie?). Legally he supported them leaving. But, at that time and place in History the entire world was forming Nation States and Lincoln felt this great movement of humanity and moved our Nation with it. It should be noted Lincoln didn't care about Slavery and said he'd preserve the Union with all States, some States or no States practicing Slavery - whatever it took to save the Union.


I maintain about 55-58% of the public do not favor large government. With nearly 8% working in Government State Unions - well, they obviously vote for the Welfare State. Then you have about 7-8% actually living (often generationaly) on welfare. They vote for the Welfare State (when they bother to vote at all). Remove these people from the electorate and you'll find Progressives (as opposed to Liberals) do not represent the electorate. They certainly don't represent the productive electorate.



Anyway, again, this looks like a hissy fit BUT from a similar hissy fit our Nation was forged from the English Empire

Just imagine when life in the USA really gets tough (AND thanks to the Keynesian Central Planers and Warmongers) life is going to get much much worse than it is now. I wonder what the Bankers are going to do about it? .... let's see, what's the best way to divert attention from internal mismanagement? Ummmm.... Iran come to mind?


Which do you think it more important to the people who will force you into a cage if you refuse to pay 3-4 months of your labor per year to the ALL Benevolent Loving State? Do you think they value YOU over their beloved USD? That's the question I'd be asking myself.

Would you like to reference your statistics or did you just make them up to suit yourself and your one track mind?

 

[joepistole]

You mis-interpret history . . . . it was the antiwar protestors and draft evaders who moved to Canada . . . and it was the ultra-liberals, like Baldwin, Penn, Streisand, etc. who vowed to leave the US if GW Bush was re-elected . . . which he WAS . . . and NO they didn't!!

You need to tell that to the Republicans who are calling Canadian immigration officials. You gotta love it. Republicans want to flee the least socialist modern economy to a more "socialist" country, complete with state controlled healthcare and those long lines for healthcare Republicans have been complaining about for the last 4 years. LOL.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/07/politics/us-election-bluster/index.html

 

[Rhaedas]

Must have been presented by Maddow or Matthews on PMSNBC . . . which I "try" to watch . . because I'm independent of cultural news venues . . . got any links to factual sources for your post?

http://www.ibtimes.com/americans-mull-moving-canada-following-obama-election-search-engine-traffic-finds-868576

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/11/08/where-should-americans-move_n_2094527.html

No one takes them seriously, of course, people say weird things when under duress.

 

[RealityCheck]

Perhaps the one-eyed crazies should calm down long enough to realize that they live in a democracy whose central govt is charged with both the national economy AND security as over-riding considerations above 'discussion' topics such as these 'petitions' would represent...and nothing more than that?

Moreover, it should be obvious even to these one-eyed crazies who put forth such tripe to sell their propaganda organs (newspapers/stations/channels) to 'advertisers' and 'politically/mercenarily self-interested groups, that the same 'principle' would, if allowable, be used by every town and city and group in those states to 'secede' from those states, and hence effectively 'dissolve' statehood status, and hence have NO rights whatsoever to 'secede' AS a 'state'?

It's just such cookoo-land fantasies which these one-eyed crazies bring to the national arena that make them increasingly irrelevant in a modern democracy of people who can at least THINK instead of just HATE and CON whenever they cannot get their childish fantasies fulfilled through democracy and logic and fair play.

No wonder the last batch of Republican/Conservative 'contenders' was so awful and ridiculous, mostly consisting of religious fantasists and conmen-frontmen who gave the US and the globe its GFC and Global warming denialists and lies which have come back to bite them.

Still, this thread is good for one thing at least, it's a HOOT! I needed a good laugh. LOL.

But back to work! No time, no time! Cheers all!

.

 

[quantum_wave]

There wouldn't be enough room for all of the one eyed crazies in all of Texas if they were to successfully secede. Can you imagine the traffic jam heading to Dallas?

 

[Rhaedas]

Apparently many of the signatures aren't from the state they sign. Wonder if there's some matches among states?

 

[RealityCheck]

There wouldn't be enough room for all of the one eyed crazies in all of Texas if they were to successfully secede. Can you imagine the traffic jam heading to Dallas?

Hahaha! Thanks mate! I just caught that before logging off. I wonder how many gullible people still 'believe' in the Repub/Conserve con-spiel after the GFC and Hurricane Sandy et al which puts the lies to all the last few years of repub/conserve propaganda? I'm not sure that there are now as many would-be one-eyed crazies as there was before the election poured cold water on all the propaganda aimed at the lazy/gullible as distinct from the one-eyed 'dyed in the wool' crazies who still haven't learned anything because they don't want to (for political/mercnary/religious etc reasons?).

Anyhow, thanks for that further 'image' of the hordes of one-eyed crazies heading 'lemming like' towards Texas etc. (disclaimer: Lemmings have more sense than some of these repubs/conerves, because that persistent 'lemming all heading over the cliff' meme is just a myth....how long will it take for these crazies to wise up to at least the intellectual/reality-cognizant level of the lemming, both as individuals and as groups, I wonder!).


Enjoy the thread, mate. What a hoot! LOL.

 

[Syzygys]

I thought Lincoln's argument was that the States have no right to secede. I disagree, but that is the historical argument...

 

[quantum_wave]

Psst ... I was worried about the traffic jam since I would be headin' in, lol,.

 

[Michael]

Would you like to reference your statistics or did you just make them up to suit yourself and your one track mind?

"The federal government administers nearly 80 different overlapping federal means-tested welfare programs," the Senate Budget Committee notes. However, the committee states, the figures used in the chart do not include those who are only benefiting from Social Security and/or Medicare.

Food stamps and Medicaid make up a large--and growing--chunk of the more than 100 million recipients. "Among the major means tested welfare programs, since 2000 Medicaid has increased from 34 million people to 54 million in 2011 and the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP, or food stamps) from 17 million to 45 million in 2011," says the Senate Budget Committee. "Spending on food stamps alone is projected to reach $800 billion over the next decade."

The data come "from the U.S. Census’s Survey of Income and Program Participation shows that nearly 110,000 million individuals received a welfare benefit in 2011. (These figures do not include other means-tested benefits such as the Earned Income Tax Credit or the health insurance premium subsidies included in the President’s health care law. CBO estimates that the premium subsidies, scheduled to begin in 2014, will cover at least 25 million individuals by the end of the decade.)"

About 7% work directly in the public sector.


But gee, just imagine if we could GROW the government... think of all those jobs!! Progressives like Joe and you would like to see an even bigger government. If we're lucky, everyone will one day be working for the government - and then won't life in American be wonderful.

 

[Asguard]

About 7% work directly in the public sector.


But gee, just imagine if we could GROW the government... think of all those jobs!! Progressives like Joe and you would like to see an even bigger government. If we're lucky, everyone will one day be working for the government - and then won't like in American be wonderful.

Nice deflect, now try again, justify the 58%. Oh and BTW 7% working in the public sector is tiny, if anything that is WAY to low when you consider that government needs to run hospitals, Child protection, police, fire, ambulance, roads, garbage, immigration, Defense, libraries, epidemiology, public transport, Diplomacy, intelligence, courts, public health, consumer protection, social security including housing, environment protection and management and all the other services that tax is designed to pay for not to mention the legislative branch itself

 

[Michael]

Let them.

I'm not worried; these citizen petitions will require some help from their state governments. Still, though, even if it actually came to the states wanting to secede, I'm not worried about several of them. New York won't leave. Oregon won't leave. Michigan won't leave. I doubt Colorado will leave. Montana's not going anywhere. North Dakota has no place to go. Louisiana? Texas? Florida? Hell, let them secede.

I wouldn't completely count Michigan out of contention. I could see Alaska, Texas, Florida and North California all in contention.

What do you suppose would happen if these States "left" but ahead of time made it absolutely clear they would greatly reduce their welfare benefits - where do you suppose all those Americans who are keen on welfare AND wanted to remain on welfare - would go? Prior to seceding all US Citizens have the right to move where they want. What if these states also defaulted on their debts? Which only makes good sense - no point using the USD any longer. Imagine a State that had a lot of debt and a lot of public obligations to suddenly having zero debt and little obligations. Imagine how attractive this State would instantaneously become to people who want to start a new business - even just people who are risk takers. You remember? The entrepreneurial class.

It's almost inconceivable a State that did this would not be successful. I imagine the citizens of other States, seeing this, would think.... why not? Anyone who looked over the Articles of Confederation will see these are much fairer from a legal POV in terms of individual liberty. Maybe we'd see a new Confederation?

Crazier things have happened


What I think will happen, and the market will force it upon the States, is currency competition. The States may not secede from the Union - but I can see them seceding form the USD. Once one does, and life starts to turn around, that the others will follow suite is an inevitability. The Bankers in NY can crap out another war with Iran or not, the tide is turning on the USD just as it has every single fiat currency that has ever existed.

 

[CptBork]

In the wake of Obama's re-election, the White House may soon be forced by it's own rules to consider the succession of up to 20 states from the U.S.

If the Democrats had pulled a stunt like this after Bush got "elected", don't tell us you wouldn't have called it treason.

 

[Michael]

Nice deflect, now try again, justify the 58%. Oh and BTW 7% working in the public sector is tiny, if anything that is WAY to low when you consider that government needs to run hospitals, Child protection, police, fire, ambulance, roads, garbage, immigration, Defense, libraries, epidemiology, public transport, Diplomacy, intelligence, courts, public health, consumer protection, social security including housing, environment protection and management and all the other services that tax is designed to pay for not to mention the legislative branch itself

Yes, well it may come as a surprise to you as an Australasian, but we Americans have traditionally been overwhelmingly fiscal conservatives. Over the recent 7 decades this has been eroded at - but we still make up about 45%. Americans by and large do NOT want a large government. Unlike Australians, we actually don't like being treated like children that need to be told what to do and where to do it. It's just a difference in cultures. Look around your house - yes, all of that stuff, was invented somewhere else and produced somewhere else too. Lucky Country indeed.

Anyway, where was I: Oh, yes, about 45% of Americans are still fiscal conservatives - we don't want a big government and we traditionally don't think it can do anything about the economy other than mess it up even more than it already does. About 10% can barely find their arse with both hands. And about 45% are dumb arses and actually think money grows on trees. We'll call these guys "Progressives". Of that 45% about 7% are on State Welfare and about 7% are part of the cancer that is government. If we took that 14% out and minus the 10% that are still looking for their arse, we're left with about 55% or so of the productive class that doesn't want big government. Which ends up looking like 45% when you add back the Progressives.

Don't get me wrong, many of those fiscal conservative are theobots who think bombing Muslims should be a National Holiday. But, that's besides the point. Traditional Conservatives are probably going to regain the GOP and it'll align more closely with Libertarians. Thus, I expect to see a Fiscal Conservative Liberal Party .... which may end up under the GOP banner. Will they go as far as Libertarians and try and shut down the War Machine? Probably not. But, if you think Americans are overwhelmingly Progressives - you're simply wrong and just don't understand American culture not having lived in the US. When and if (probably when not if) the balance actually does tip in favor of the Progressive Demagogues - then I think it's bye bye USA. Say, by 2030. OR there will be a HUGE swing back, the central government will be smashed down to <5% GDP with most social 'services' going the way of the USD.

 

[Asguard]

so the answer is you DID make up the statistics

 

[Tiassa]

An Eternal Season of Discontent

I wouldn't completely count Michigan out of contention. I could see Alaska, Texas, Florida and North California all in contention.

Northern California is more likely to form the State of Jefferson than actually leave the Union. And the odds of that happening are only marginally better than eastern and western Washington splitting up. Jefferson, at least, would have a Pacific coastline.

Michigan? Where is it going to go? Sure, there are thirty-eight deep-water ports in the state, but it's a long trip over water from Presque Isle to the Atlantic. While Michigan enjoys strong trade with Mexico, that goes over roads in the United States; Canadian trade alone won't be enough. Michigan would literally be boxed in, and there is no reason to think that the remaining United States would be kindly disposed to the new Mitten Republic; that is, the U.S. isn't going to turn around and give the newly-seceded nation a sweetheart trade deal. And, besides, the thought of Michigan football not having a chance to play the BCS would be enough to counter any talk of secession.

Alaska? I would love to see the Frontier Republic defend itself. The remaining United States would only view a foreign invasion and occupation of Alaska as problematic from a home defense standpoint, and, well, you know how Americans fight wars. And we'll see how much the people up there like life without the oil handouts and approximately five hundred dollars per person in federal spending.

Texas and Florida? Let them go. In the time between the first birth in the New Lone Star Republic and the end of that person's natural lifetime, Texas would become part of Mexico. They can't kill enough Hispanics down there to stop it from happening. And Florida? About the fifth time in the first twenty years the changing climate wrecks the fruit harvest, with the tourism business in the gutter and Latin/Carribean organized crime running the local government, the U.S. will have to build a wall to keep out all the Floridians trying to illegally flee north into the the country they just left.

In any case, the same sort of folks who are really pissed off at the Beltway will soon have to focus their frustration on the cronyism and betrayal taking place in their newly-established national capitals.

Modern secession is something like a teenage political stroke fantasy. Even if you really do find the dreamed-about gratification, it will turn out to be a lot more complicated than the fantasy suggested. Just think of the Philadelphia Convention if it was drowning in technology, energy, and financial lobbyists.

And think about what will happen to various economies when the U.S. acknowledges secession and pulls up its facilities. Imagine Brevard County, Florida without Patrick AFB, CCAFS, submarine facilities at Port Canaveral, or NOTU. And convince me that Northrop Grumman will stay there when the JSTARS program is pulled back within U.S. borders. Add to that the loss of economic benefit that comes from interstate trade.

Secession would mean an immediate decline in quality of life, and a serious uptick in political corruption. Only in a teenage dream does revolutionary altruism seem genuinely possible.

If states seriously attempted to secede, the only reason for trying to keep Texas or Florida around is pride. Nobody wants to be recorded in history as the president who oversaw the fracturing of the Union. In reality, the United States would do just fine without them.

 

[Ganymede]

It would be gratifying if they were ignorant enough to do such a foolish thing. Especially since most of those Red States receive more federal dollars than what they give.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-09-19/blame-fdr-and-lbj-for-moocher-paradox-in-red-states.html

 

[Michael]

so the answer is you DID make up the statistics

I just showed you the percentages - once you remove the dole recipients and government employees about 58% of Americans (aka: the productive ones) are fiscally conservative. American on the whole has a culture of fiscal conservatism. I know, I'm an American. I lived most of my live in the USA.

 

[Asguard]

I just showed you the percentages - once you remove the dole recipients and government employees about 58% of Americans (aka: the productive ones) are fiscally conservative. American on the whole has a culture of fiscal conservatism. I know, I'm an American. I lived most of my live in the USA.

Ah yes, the productive ones, whos REALLY more productive? Donald Trump or a US solder fighting for his country? Donald Trump or a school teacher? Donald Trump or a firefighter, Paramedic, cop, doctor, nurse etc

Who REALLY benefits society because the evidence is that these "paragons of capitalisium" are actually taking OUT of society, not benifiting it

Cleaners more valuable than bankers

economics correspondent Stephen Long for PM
ABC News
Updated Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:19am AEDT


A study by the New Economics Foundation in Britain has found that childcare workers and cleaners contribute more to society than bankers and advertising executives.

The study called A Bit Rich tried to calculate the real value to society of a range of different professions; bankers and cleaners, childcare workers and advertising executives, tax accountants and people who recycle household waste.

On its analysis for every pound or dollar that they earned, hospital cleaners contributed 10 times that amount in benefits to society.

Childcare workers generated seven to 10 times their wages in social and economic benefits, but bankers on million dollar salaries and bonuses actually destroyed social value.

Helen Kersley from the New Economics Foundation is one of the study's co-authors.

"We look at the economic benefits, the things that we're used to looking at and the things that we're used to having prices attached to," she said.

"But we also look at the environmental impacts and the social impacts as well of all six of the professions that we looked at."

One of the study's key findings is pay in no way reflects the contribution to society.

The study looked at high-flying bankers employed in the City of London on salaries between 500,000 and 10 million pounds.

It found that they have destroyed more wealth than they have built.

Advertising executives rated poorly too.

The study took into account their role in encouraging people to go into debt and the environmental effects of the over-consumption they help to generate.

It found that for every pound sterling in value they created, they cost society about 11 times that.

But for every pound a childcare worker gets paid it says they produce seven to 10 times that in social and economic benefits.

It is not just what they impart to the young; the carers also free up others to do paid work and contribute to society.

Contributing to society
The finding resonates for Sue Lines, assistant secretary of the LHMU which represents cleaners and child care workers in Australia.

"Well childcare members certainly say to us that they are contributing to the aspirational values of the families that are using childcare, and in fact their low wages are keeping the cost of childcare down,"

"Now that's not right and it's certainly not fair and it does need to be addressed.

"But childcare workers are well aware of the value that they add to creating the economic prosperity of the families whose children are in care."

The British study found that hospital cleaners contribute just as much or more - 10 times their wage - because of the vital role they play in combating diseases.

Specifically the study looked at their role in combating a drug-resistant bug that thrives in hospitals.

Another co-author of the study, Eilis Lawlor, says hospital cleaners are responsible for keeping all sorts of infections at bay.

"With the hospital cleaner we know for each additional cleaner on the ward that there is a reduced instance of MRSA," she said.

"The reduced MRSA (Methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus) has economic benefits, but it also saves lives."

The authors deny their report is a bank-bashing exercise.

"We're absolutely not saying that finance as a whole has this damaging impact," Helen Kersley said.

"But the activities of a city banker were more damaging for society than they were beneficial."

That may not be true of Australia - we avoided the financial woes of London.

And the methodology of the study is a bit rough and ready - ascribing social value to jobs is not easy, and some question whether this is a political tract dressed up as an economic inquiry.

But others wonder why our home-grown investment bankers, the men paid tens of millions at Macquarie and the financial engineers behind the failed Babcock and Brown get so much when others performing socially useful roles get paid so little.

Topics: community-and-society, business-economics-and-finance, economic-trends, advertising-and-marketing, banking, carers, child-care, england, united-kingdom

First posted Wed Dec 16, 2009 12:18am AEDT

Viewed 13/11/12 at 16:46

So try again, in fact im getting a little sick of you saying that NFP and Public sector workers are bludgers, try backing up your claims

 

[Michael]

If states seriously attempted to secede, the only reason for trying to keep Texas or Florida around is pride. Nobody wants to be recorded in history as the president who oversaw the fracturing of the Union. In reality, the United States would do just fine without them.

For the reasons you mention I think the first thing States will do is secede monetarily through currency competition. The Federal Government is weaving it's own noose as we speak and the Federal Reserve is destroying the USD. The Federal Government is a bloated, bureaucratic nightmare that's completely lost touch with what's happening in the real world. Even our military is so incompetent now it has to resort to paying mercenaries to get anything done right - and then it's only half done and costs 10 times the price. We lose war after war and things go from bad to worse. Just like in the USSR and United Europe, the US had our day in the sun - but that day is swiftly coming to an end.

I maintain that when it becomes evident the amount of money promised in government (State, Local as well as Federal) obligations (over $200 trillion) that Americans simply will not stand for the US federal government selling off their children's future labor through inflation, devaluation and bonds. Americans see the State for the failure it is, and always has been. We are going to move on..... one way or another. Americans are losing faith in their public institutions - and they should, because what used to be a service has now become a liability. Even notions that would have seems strange when we were kids, like homeschooling, are now gaining ground as parents refuse to put their kids into Lord of the Flies Government Institutions where learning is the last of a long list of priorities.

What we're seeing is just the normal outcome of Statism.




By the way, what exactly does New York produce any longer other than debt? You've listed them as a producing State - sure, when all the major banks are headquartered in your State and debt is the name of the game, it can appear as if you're a producing State. What else does New York produce? Cars? Heavy industry? What is it exactly? I bought some nice blueberries in NY once. I'm sure it's more than farming.