Pepper spray students.. what the @#%^

[Gustav]

I mean heck, only 160 police got killed on the job last year.

disingenuity and dishonesty taken to new heights
how many on college campuses? how many campus police died as a result of student interaction? i say zero

i mean, golly gosh!





this thing wants you to believe that the citizenry is to blame for all 160 deaths.
but it spreads disinfo with its disingenuous innuendo
such is the way of the beast

 

[chimpkin]

I'm actually trying to find safe arrest procedures for sit-ins...believe it or not I have a smidge of training on this.
I've certainly seen a training vid on how to search and how to cuff people. Really do not want to work somewhere where I get into the super fun liability aspects of getting to do that as a non-LEO, but...
I'm wanting to say I saw a vid in which two officers at a time pulled a protester free of the armlock at the line's end by the armpits, dragged them clear via a fireman's drag (keep the spine straight, of course).
They turned them over and ziptied their wrists, and then searched them while the protester was prone and away from the crowd.
As far as getting stabbed goes... those kids were down at ankle and knee levels...most of the cops would be wearing good service boots...so while there's an outside possibility of nonviolent( ! ) protesters suddenly losing it and getting stabby, it's not that likely, is it?

Hosing the kids was a judgement call. I don't think it helped, I don't think it protected the cops from getting stabbed, it made the campus PD look like a batch of douches.
If Arthur ever agreed with me about anything I would think it was a sign of the apocalypse impending anyway.

 

[Gustav]

Not at all.

It can be a dangerous place.

http://daviswiki.org/Tragic_events/Homicides

From 2005 to 2007, more than 100 murders, 16,000 assaults and 10,000 forcible sexual assaults were reported on college campuses.

http://www2.ed.gov/admins/lead/safety/crime/criminaloffenses/index.html

the first link passed off as campus incidents is an account of crime in the city of davis just 4 out of 26 incidents are campus related. none posed a direct threat to police safety

this creature persists in its campaign to knowingly disseminate...crap

 

[adoucette]

the first link passed off as campus incidents is an account of crime in the city of davis just 4 out of 26 incidents are campus related. none posed a direct threat to police safety

this creature persists in its campaign to knowingly disseminate...crap

Not at all.

As your breakdown showed, ~729 of the deaths would be related to confrontations.

So since it's not 1,600 that makes it all better?

That police shouldn't take steps to protect themselves?

Guess you missed that point about 65% of the police were killed in 2010 while wearing body armor?

Arthur

 

[Gustav]

As long as the protesters have people like Gustav in the audience, they will be getting their moneys worth. In this day and age, everything you do will be on video and the police need to be aware that they were being an easy target.

By using the inflammatory language you are, you are trying to control peoples emotional response the same as the protest planners.:shrug:

disjointed and idiotic brain farts. the neurons fire in a haphazard and chaotic manner. if i were you, i'd prefer death

Not at all.

As your breakdown showed, ~729 of the deaths would be related to confrontations.

So since it's not 1,600 that makes it all better?

That police shouldn't take steps to protect themselves?

Guess you missed that point about 65% of the police were killed in 2010 while wearing body armor?

Arthur

again the creature responds with disingenuous non sequiters
i reference the first link, not the second
put me back on ignore
you defile all that is pure,innocent and good in this world by your address

 

[adoucette]

the first link passed off as campus incidents is an account of crime in the city of davis just 4 out of 26 incidents are campus related. none posed a direct threat to police safety

this creature persists in its campaign to knowingly disseminate...crap

Just 4 out of 26, including one where they were fired on is NOT a direct threat to police safety?

You're kidding right?

This is where these cops live, so it gives you an idea of the crime in the area and prior to the arrests the police know nothing about who these people are.

Or are you trying to say 20 somethings aren't capable of murder?

 

[Aqueous Id]

Not at all.

It can be a dangerous place.

http://daviswiki.org/Tragic_events/Homicides

From 2005 to 2007, more than 100 murders, 16,000 assaults and 10,000 forcible sexual assaults were reported on college campuses.

http://www2.ed.gov/admins/lead/safety/crime/criminaloffenses/index.html

Sounds like murder and mayhem on the campuses!

How about everybody gets a good pre-gassing before they enter the premises? You know, something to soften them up first?

Or maybe a tranq - yeah, some weed, that'll do it!

The video clearly shows there was no threat of any kind. This distinguishes this event from one that would justify gas deployment. The arguments you raise, are, to me the kind of arguments raised by King George and his minions, to put down the demonstrations that led to the notion of freedom of assembly in the first place.

Sure they were breaking the law, but it's a freaking minuscule violation.

The cops didn't deploy mace out of safety or the statistics! It was done as a sheer act of force, to do it expediently, and, apparently, without thinking very clearly beforehand. Compare them, laced up, with the early days of riot gear, when the mobs were overturning cars and burning them. That's a huge difference in crowd behavior to justify the use of force. Cops don't do things like this until one or two gets pumped up - usually because something is said - and adrenaline is the response. Where's the professionalism? The training they supposedly had? Where were the mediators? The university should have been bringing these people water and medics to ensure their well being.

I will now quote from the anti-reactionary-in-chief:

We don't do these things because that's not who we are.

We are not reactionaries!

 

[adoucette]

As far as getting stabbed goes... those kids were down at ankle and knee levels...most of the cops would be wearing good service boots...so while there's an outside possibility of nonviolent( ! ) protesters suddenly losing it and getting stabby, it's not that likely, is it?

Oh, so now you fall back to: "it's not likely" as your rationale?

Yeah, they wouldn't ever think to stab upward, to where the Femoral Artery is would they?

Sorry, those policeman want to go home at the end of the day just like you do.

Hosing the kids was a judgement call. I don't think it helped, I don't think it protected the cops from getting stabbed, it made the campus PD look like a batch of douches.

Yeah it was a judgement call.
One anticipated to make it easier and safer to break up the blockade without doing serious harm to the protestors.
And if they didn't do that and one of the policemen got stabbed then what would you be saying?

I mean really, who hasn't been pepper sprayed?
It's not like getting hit in the face with a baton.

 

[adoucette]

The video clearly shows there was no threat of any kind.

No it doesn't because you can't tell from the Video that none of them had knives or weapons.

This distinguishes this event from one that would justify gas deployment. The arguments you raise, are, to me the kind of arguments raised by King George and his minions, to put down the demonstrations that led to the notion of freedom of assembly in the first place.

No, unlike this, where everyone went home at the end of the day, the King's men actually shot them, with Muskets, at close range.

Sure they were breaking the law, but it's a freaking minuscule violation.

Still they were being arrested.
That's where it becomes up close and personal.

The cops didn't deploy mace out of safety or the statistics! It was done as a sheer act of force, to do it expediently, and, apparently, without thinking very clearly beforehand.

Yeah they did.
It's been shown that use of Pepper Spray results in fewer actual injuries to BOTH sides in situations like this.

Compare them, laced up, with the early days of riot gear, when the mobs were overturning cars and burning them. That's a huge difference in crowd behavior to justify the use of force.

And this is the lowest use of force they have in a crowd situation.

You act like the students were really hurt by this, but the reality is they weren't.

The FACT is, everyone went home that night, both police and students, with no lasting injuries.

Arthur

 

[Aqueous Id]

No it doesn't because you can't tell from the Video that none of them had knives or weapons.

You can tell by the video that the larger crowd were not being gassed.
If they had had assault rifles under their jackets, the mace could have triggered a slaughter. You can take that reasoning anywhere. It had nothing to do with knives! The gas had no effect whatsoever on the security of the area, other than to incite the crowd to start yelling.

No, unlike this, where everyone went home at the end of the day, the King's men actually shot them, with Muskets, at close range.

They did a lot of things, including brandishing weapons, and exercising crowd control, before the shooting started. It starts with an attitude. One of superiority, arrogance, and disrespect for the message of the demonstrator. I believe they had something to say, something onn their mind. Who cares if you don't agree. Leave them alone.

Still they were being arrested.
That's where it becomes up close and personal.

Mace is not standard issue for an arrest. This is not typical. They were youngsters (it seems) - students (apparently). They were sitting down, peacefully. The mace had no purpose whatsoever that can be justified under those circumstances. use of force comes after not before the "clear and present danger" presents itself.

Yeah they did.
It's been shown that use of Pepper Spray results in fewer actual injuries to BOTH sides in situations like this.

As seen in the video, there was no justification for fear of any injuries since everyone was behaving very calmly, most of all the ones who got sprayed.
To claim that pepper spray results in fewer injuries is therefore moot.

QUOTE=adoucette;2860670]
And this is the lowest use of force they have in a crowd situation.
[/QUOTE]

Faulty logic again. Use of any force whatsoever was not justified. And there are many things that could have been done besides this.

You act like the students were really hurt by this, but the reality is they weren't.

The injury is an acute sense of asphyxiation, out of fear of inhaling the stinging gas, then when you catch a whiff, you will choke, gag, and usually vomit (depending on dosage). There is a panic that wells up in you, the fight or flight response, elevated pulse and blood pressure, and this is when the person becomes most dangerous if they indeed came to the party with their finger on the trigger. Heart and lung patients, allergic and asthma patients, will suffer inordinately. It is chemical warfare at a personal level.

The FACT is, everyone went home that night, both police and students, with no lasting injuries.

Arthur

This is why it was unjustified. There were no injuries to precipitate the response. Use of force is a response, not a mediation.

 

[Gustav]

Just 4 out of 26, including one where they were fired on is NOT a direct threat to police safety?

You're kidding right?

This is where these cops live, so it gives you an idea of the crime in the area and prior to the arrests the police know nothing about who these people are.

Or are you trying to say 20 somethings aren't capable of murder?

campus police on us davis are distinct from the municipal ones.they are employees of the state. there are jurisdictional issues

At 5:06pm on Tuesday December 14th 2004, three University of California police officers responded to a suspicious persons report. A man later identified as 26-year-old Martin Louie Castro Soriano had been loitering outside the On Campus Co-ops near Regan Hall. After police attempted to subdue him with several taser shots, he opened fire on them. The police returned fire. Paramedics were dispatched; however, the suspect died at the scene. School officials stated that this is the first officer-related shooting death in the history of the UC Davis campus. The victim was not a UC Davis student, and it was confirmed that he was on methamphetamine and marijuana at the time.​

the incident in 2004 that is alleged to establish a precedent for the actions by campus cops in the name of safety in the current incident. this is the desperate and twisted reasoning this thing offers up. a single incident that does not involve student protests

 

[Gustav]

American Speak​

"Free speech is part of the DNA of this university, and non-violent protest has long been central to our history," UC President Mark G. Yudof said in a statement Sunday in response to the spraying of students sitting passively at UC Davis. "It is a value we must protect with vigilance."

Yudof said it was not his intention to "micromanage our campus police forces," but he said all 10 chancellors would convene soon for a discussion "about how to ensure proportional law enforcement response to non-violent protest."​

Neo Nazi Speak​

Yeah they did.
It's been shown that use of Pepper Spray results in fewer actual injuries to BOTH sides in situations like this.

And this is the lowest use of force they have in a crowd situation.

You act like the students were really hurt by this, but the reality is they weren't.

The FACT is, everyone went home that night, both police and students, with no lasting injuries.

Arthur

 

[Aqueous Id]

Fist bump, Gustav.

Neo-American speak:

We don't do that because that's not who we are.

 

[adoucette]

The injury is an acute sense of asphyxiation, out of fear of inhaling the stinging gas, then when you catch a whiff, you will choke, gag, and usually vomit (depending on dosage). There is a panic that wells up in you, the fight or flight response, elevated pulse and blood pressure, and this is when the person becomes most dangerous if they indeed came to the party with their finger on the trigger. Heart and lung patients, allergic and asthma patients, will suffer inordinately. It is chemical warfare at a personal level.

BS

I've been gassed.
It's not pleasant,indeed it stings like hell and make you cry and can be quite disorienting, but it is not at all like acute asphyxiation either.

Indeed police officers are gassed as part of their training.

The fact is EVERYONE went home that night.
NO ONE was injured.

You are trying to make it into something MUCH bigger than it was.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2011/11/uc-davis-police-officer-pepper-spray-honored.html

Arthur

 

[Repo Man]

Being able to "go home" at the end of the day is a completely crap standard. One could also go home at the end of the day if they were waterboarded. Look at these poor bastards, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAPlWiQUuaQ . And that's with water readily available to wash it out with, which was not the case at Davis.

"What have we learned today Kirby?" "Don't mess with American cops."

 

[adoucette]

No, it's a quite reasonable standard.

Compare that to getting hit with a baton or stabbed.

Which is why you could get volunteers to not only be sprayed, but have them laughing about it not that long afterward.

 

[Repo Man]

No, it's a quite reasonable standard.

Compare that to getting hit with a baton or stabbed.

Which is why you could get volunteers to not only be sprayed, but have them laughing about it not that long afterward.

False dichotomy. Nothing that happened that day justified the use of any force.

I particularly liked this quote from the article: "He decided against using pepper spray, a baton or a sidearm because he did not want to injure his partners, the release said. One of officers credited Pike with helping to save his life.

"You've got all these tools on your belt," Pike said, "but sometimes they're not the best tools." (emphasis added)

 

[Me-Ki-Gal]

frakking uc davis students
i have never been so moved in my life
their courage and resolve, actions and words
some powerful, iconic, transcendent shit right there

then i come to sci
and see adoucette
i vomit in disgust

/vomits

Davis is my stomping grounds . My Daughter went there for several years . I might even know some of those kids parents . Grand parents .

Aggies . That is what they are Aggies . They got my support big time

 

[Me-Ki-Gal]

No, it's a quite reasonable standard.

Compare that to getting hit with a baton or stabbed.

Which is why you could get volunteers to not only be sprayed, but have them laughing about it not that long afterward.

Ah yeah that is what they use to do to Me and my friends for nothing . We was fortunate enough to be friends with the local sheriffs Daughter in high school in Sacramento . That be On Clinton Rd right By Encina High School . Yeah so her dad would Hit us with his Baton. My Bud Mark he got it bad . The thing was he could watch us 24/7 so he had his on duty cop buddies watch when he was putting on the dunk off duty at the cop Watering hole . His cop buddies would hit us with there batons for him and say so as they did . This is for @#@$ , then blam .

It is truly a Americal I am not a maniac killer . Your lucky I got a big Heart , slow to anger , long suffering and patient all at the same time

 

[chimpkin]

Oh, so now you fall back to: "it's not likely" as your rationale?

It's not likely someone who trespasses is going to pull a gun and shoot me. But they might, should I pepper-spray them? Kick them in the nose with my steel-toed boots to break the bridge of their nose and blind them? boot to the kneecaps?
They might have a gun...this is an unarmed post.
You have to recognize when you are being sensible, and when you are being paranoid...

I got to talk a 6' 5" wierdo off the property one night, by myself and I did not resort to anything but the good old Polite Deferential Nag.

I think a lot of people in this country will go to any length to justify the use of force by police officers...as a sort of Stockholm Syndrome.
Occasionally the police may batter us, but they keep us safe from the even worse batterers? So like an abused wife they make excuses for their occasionally abusive husband because they figure it's better than nothing.

Just an idea to mull...:shrug: